Canadian Model Trains - All Inventory Sold Off

[Paul Cutler III]

Uh, oh. Looks like Canadian Model Trains has sold their entire inventory and their website off to True Line Trains.

www.truelinetrains.ca/news/cmt-updates

www.modeltrains.com/ (CMT's old website)

If you have an outstanding order with CMT or have a consignment with them, you better get a hold of TLT.

They do say CMT is staying in business, but without any inventory nor a website, I don't know what CMT will be doing.

Also of note, TLT says they are not going into retail...which makes one wonder why they bought out all of CMT's stock. Curiouser and curiouser...

[GP40P-2]

I do have an outstanding order with them. A few weeks ago, he did send out an email stating that they were leaving retail to concentrate on manufacturing. However, all remaining outstanding orders were to be honored.

Jim L

[drolsen]

Paul - There was a discussion on Trainorders a month or so ago about CMT going into the manufacturing business. It sounded like they were doing something like PWRS - planning to manufacture models of Canadian prototypes - but they decided to eliminate their retail business in the process. Seems like a bad way to start off a new phase in the model railroad business - by dropping all of your current customers. I'll see if I can find any more info in the previous discussion.

Dave

[Judge Doom]

Basically in a nutshell, Dave's got it. However, there seems to be a number of hiccups along the way: a number of people on the CanModelTrains Yahoo group (no affiliation with CMT) have recently been trying to reach CMT regarding their orders but haven't had phone calls or emails returned. The owner did make a brief appearance a number of weeks ago to say they are working really hard on some revolutionary industry-changing restructuring etc spiel (essentially getting out of retail and into manufacturing) and that all orders would be honoured, but then a few weeks after everyone found out one day they sold their inventory off to some numbered Ontario company, later traced back to True Line Trains (the honouring commitment still stands, but through TLT now).

IMHO, suddenly taking their entire website down and putting up a few lines on a blank homepage stating that their inventory has been sold off doesn't really spur consumer confidence, or present a good business front for former and current customers. They could have at least left a contact page/info or mentioned their transition to manufacturing. Now it looks to the world like they've gone out of business when they haven't.

[Deleted]

There has been a big discussion over on Train Orders a couple of days ago about CMT.

In a nutshell the principle of CMT says he can't talk to anyone concerning the situation.

True Line says they ARE NOT honoring the orders and to contact CMT

CMT had a bunch of reservations with OMI for models that are hitting the shore and none of the customer information has been forwarded to either OMI or whoever is going to handle the brass sales.

Finally, a number of people have paid for merchandise that they have never received or made deposits and neither CMT or True Line will tell them if they have lost their money or ?

Its a mess.

[nw611]

Maybe Jason Shron at Rapido, who happens to be a TLT's neighbor and a (former ?) major supplier to CMT, can explain what' s going on. Unless his company is involved in this mysterious situation. Ciao. Raffaele

[nw611]

BTW, creating a lot of problems to Brian Marsh, one of the most respected persons in this community, is not the way to start a new business model. Raffaele

[drolsen]

Aug 27, 2012 4:09:54 GMT -8 nw611 said:

Maybe Jason Shron at Rapido, who happens to be a TLT's neighbor and a (former ?) major supplier to CMT, can explain what' s going on. Unless his company is involved in this mysterious situation. Ciao. Raffaele

Apparently Jason is affected by this also because (according to a posting on Trainorders) he was involved in manufacturing a model of a Pte. St. Charles caboose for CMT and may now be assuming control of that project with CMT bowing out. I'm sure he has nothing to do with the business side of CMT. I think he's just going to take on the project as a Rapido product since CMT has withdrawn from that effort. I'll refrain from any other speculation since I don't know anything about this other than what I read.

Dave

[atsfan]

Another one bites the dust.

[mlehman]

For all the fuming that was generated over ExactRail changing its business model, this does sort of prove that things could be worse, much worse. In comparison, ER handled their change very classily. Of course, I suspect ER planned their change, whereas CMT seems like its some sort of last ditch effort to stay afloat.

[Judge Doom]

A recent message from TLT on the CanModelTrains Y! Group:

"
We [TLT] are currently working through the [CMT] inventory and the records we have regarding
existing orders that are paid for in part or in full. We're also assessing the
consignment items to get them back to their owners. We're also happy to send
consignment items to another dealer at the owner's request.

As we locate the items for these orders, we're posting the names of those orders
to contact us directly so we can settle up if any payment is due, and ship the
orders.

The most up-to-date information is posted on our site at
www.truelinetrains.ca/news/cmt-updates

In addition, I post a notice on Facebook each time I post an update on the
website.

...if you did not make a deposit on the pre-order, and you can find
the model elsewhere, then I'd go ahead and pick it up. Folks with deposits (or
models paid in full) are particularly concerned, as is expected. So we're
addressing those as quickly as we can.

I hope that helps!

Randy Hammill
True Line Trains
truelinetrains.com
www.facebook.com/TrueLineTrains
www.youtube.com/truelinetrains
"

[calzephyr]

Aug 27, 2012 10:30:14 GMT -8 Judge Doom said:

A recent message from TLT on the CanModelTrains Y! Group:

"
We [TLT] are currently working through the [CMT] inventory and the records we have regarding
existing orders that are paid for in part or in full. We're also assessing the
consignment items to get them back to their owners. We're also happy to send
consignment items to another dealer at the owner's request.

As we locate the items for these orders, we're posting the names of those orders
to contact us directly so we can settle up if any payment is due, and ship the
orders.

The most up-to-date information is posted on our site at
www.truelinetrains.ca/news/cmt-updates

In addition, I post a notice on Facebook each time I post an update on the
website.

...if you did not make a deposit on the pre-order, and you can find
the model elsewhere, then I'd go ahead and pick it up. Folks with deposits (or
models paid in full) are particularly concerned, as is expected. So we're
addressing those as quickly as we can.

I hope that helps!

Randy Hammill
True Line Trains
truelinetrains.com
www.facebook.com/TrueLineTrains
www.youtube.com/truelinetrains
"

This is the reason I will never deposit any money for a model. What if the model is incorrect and has problems. If a business needs my money to purchase or hold a reservation, then I want part of the profits also.
Larry

[steveturner]

Feel bad for those who lost money or who will. Not sure what the chances are of getting it back after the dust settles. I really see no reason to plunk money down for a model that MIGHT show up in 6 months ,a year or two or even in 3 years.I will take my chances and pick a model up when its released..............not always an issue. If a guy is coming to work on my house next year i am not paying him up front!!!!!!. Again i feel for those out of cash and product. What went on i dont know its not my business.I would wonder though up to what date were they still taking deposits.All around it seems like a sour situation for many.Steve

[carrman]

Aug 27, 2012 4:19:35 GMT -8 nw611 said:

BTW, creating a lot of problems to Brian Marsh, one of the most respected persons in this community,

Opinions vary on Brian Marsh.



Dave

[johndmock]

I have experienced some QA/QC issues with some Overland Models products in the past, but in general most are and were indeed terrific.

However, Brian Marsh has also personally bent over backwards to try to make me happy--in a situation where a dealer outright lied...Brian took a defective (bubbles in nickel plating) HO Santa Fe PA back to Korea and attempted to fix it for me, then when it subsequently could not be repaired (and no replacements were available) kindly refunded the dealer cost to me...which was way more than I'd ever get out of the (now long gone) utterly dishonest train dealer.

If and when Brian Marsh says he's going to do something, I'd believe him. I've never known him to be anything other than honest. (The foray into HO plastic just didn't work out very well for them, and anything that did or did not happen there, was promised or not promised, I believe was an unforeseen circumstance and not any intent to harm anyone).

No one on this earth is perfect, but Brian Marsh tries very hard to assure complete customer satisfaction. I hope the buyers receive the items they ordered...and in the past, CMT did not require an up-front deposit, so I hope few get burned in the end.

Though I can no longer afford to play with brass models, I have the utmost respect for Brian and his father Tom and Overland Models.

John

[carrman]

Licensing agreements for brass UP Olympic SD70M's notwithstanding.

[nw611]

Dave (Carrman), in the past I only had an exchange of E-mails with Brian Marsh (regarding T55 products, not OMI) and he was very kind in all his answers. Why do you think he does not deserve to be considered "respected" ? What is the matter about UP Olympic SD70M ? Ciao. Raffaele

[Paul Cutler III]

While I've never spoken personally to Brian Marsh, I have a couple friends who have and who have purchased items directly from him through OMI. From what I've heard from these folks is that Brian is very customer focused. He will absolutely go out of his way to help someone out, whether it's a troublesome electronic short or a bent or missing part. Heck, he's even gone back into his archives to find out if they've made a model of something or not, just because a customer wondered if they had ever made it at all. In that regard, Brian is a good guy.

That being said, from other sources I've heard that Brian Marsh is the reason why UP started that whole licensing fiasco a few years back. From what I can recall, Brian wanted an exclusive right to produce certain new UP engines (the UP Olympic units, I presume). UP was then prodded to take a look around and suddenly have their hand out, trying to dig into the wallets of every manufacturer, historical society, and model railroader who wants items painted for UP or any predecessors (and in one case, they even tried to grab the rights to a railroad they didn't own the rights to). They even went after a UP calendar maker ("Steamscenes") for rights violations for using his own photos of UP engines. For causing untold headaches, uncertainty, and stifled production with threatened lawsuits and changing rules of what UP would or woud not allow (and not to mention all the money it cost other manufacturers to either fight or comply), Brian was the bad guy. It also lead to the dissolution of the MRIA (Model Railroad Industry Association) and he formation of the HMA (Hobby Manufacturers Association). Why? Because the MRIA didn't protect the manufacturers they way they were supposed to from UP's lawyers (which they had done when CSX tried the same thing in the early 1980's). So why join it and pay dues if it did nothing? So MRIA went kerplunk, and they merged it with several other formerly independant manufacturing industry groups to form the HMA...

[carrman]

And now you know the rest of the story. Good day!

[curtmc]

Wrong Carrman... That's not the rest of the story, that's the wrong story...

Paul, Carrman and all...
It's time to straighten up some incorrect info being spread on the OMI Olympic SD70Ms... The primary licensing for those particular units was with the US Olympic Committee and was much more stringent than just the Coke and Chevy licensing... (BTW, nearly the same licensing had to be done long before with the 1996 Olympic SD40-2s except in that case there was an issue with getting the Coke licensing and thus the models were done without the Coke logos) (you can ask Microscale about Coke and the S&D order they got on Coke decals they had been making - a licensing issue long before UP or OMI had anything to do with it)

Back to the Olympic SD70Ms for 2002... ANYTHING now done (made in the US or imported into the US) with the Olympic rings (or the logos of any specific Olympic games) has to be approved by the USOC as per their Olympic licensing agreements which specify strict production and sales period limits. That entire run of OMI 2001/2002 SD70M units (and the passenger car sets) had to be produced within the 12 months prior to the 2002 Olympics and all unsold items DESTROYED at a time 12 months after those Olympics (standard USOC licensing agreement for any company that is not a primary USOC sponsor). Thus OMI took a big risk by doing the production at all, and the limited front time prevented OMI from being able to do the caldron car that they had even more requests for. That's just the way the licensing works with all Olympic items now... and the reason Athearn could not do those SD70Ms, and Microscale not being able to do the decals had little to do with OMI and a lot to do with the USOC and those companies not wanting to be limited to such a short sales period (and likely not wanting to pay the steep licensing fees either for an item that they could only offer for a few months).

The USOC is very aware of how everybody wants to capitalize on the Olympics and their licensing program is their way of getting big time sponsors of paying fees used to run the training facilities. And the little guys (those companies not wanting to pay millions to be official sponsors) have to play by the licensing rules meant to protect the major sponsors... And I can guarantee OMI didn't like those rules either (as could be seen in Brian's facial expressions as he described the "ridiculous" terms direct to me as I pleaded for OMI to do the caldron car too) as it both drove up their cost and put a huge risk on the project that if there had been major production delays it all would have had to be destroyed (which meant other projects had to be rescheduled/delayed).

Naturally all those who wanted Athearn to produce the Olympic SD70Ms (and are jealous of those who have the OMI units that now go for 2-4 times their original price) who are unaware of the USOC requirements for the production of Olympic items are going to somehow try to blame UP, OMI and Brian Marsh...

[Paul Cutler III]

Curt,
Ok, you've explained about the IOC being involved in the trademarking of everything under the sun with their logo on it (and recent stories about the London Games proves that they are still being total jerks...including telling a local pub that he had to change the name of his bar for the duration of the event because it has "Olympic" in the title, even tho' the name is decades old). Coke is a well known jerk about their logos, too (I have also heard the horror stories direct from Microscale).

What you haven't explained is how "carrman" and I are wrong. Sure, you've added to the story, but so far I've yet to see any contradiction of our postings.

Did OMI request exclusive rights to the US Olympic SD70M's? Was UP prodded to clamp down on all UP & predecessor items (including calendars made using pictures of UP equipment by a 3rd party) because of OMI? Did the MRIA implode because of the lack of response to UP? These are the statements I made in my posting above. Am I wrong in any of them?

[Judge Doom]

Just an update, this was posted to the CanModelTrains Yahoo group the other day. It seems the legal ball has started rolling:

-------------------------------------------

This is an update for any member wishing to attain information on CMT. In
respecting Jason's wishes, I will not publish the information here [CanModelTrains] as I do not
wish this to consume this forum, as it has in the past. If you have paid funds
to CMT at any point AND attempted to attain those funds back or have not
received a product that was past due, or have not received monies in return, I
would ask that you contact me directly. This is now being investigated by a law
enforcement agency who will require the information as part of a potential
criminal matter. As previously mentioned, unless new information comes to light,
then this should be discussed in a different forum.
Please email particulars to christopher.dp@.... The Detective who will
have carriage of this case will contact any involved parties directly.

-------------------------------------------
[Later, in reply to another message]

Hi Jeff,

I understand your cautiousness in providing personal information to me for the
purposes of this investigation.

For your records, my particulars are as follows:

Chris Plue (PC #667)- D Platoon
Durham Regional Police Service
Assigned to 15 Division - North Durham Community Police Office
905-579-1520 (Main Line)
I will be working dayshift again on October 3rd and can be reached should you
need to speak to me over the phone.

The investigator that will be taking care of this matter is assigned to our
Major Crime Branch - Fraud Unit. Although Peel Regional Police have been advised
of this, our service will be providing carriage of this investigation throughout
its preliminary phases. As of now, we are simply seeking individuals to come
forward who feel that they may have become victim of a crime. CMT has not been
contacted as of yet, and we are are not alluding to the fact that a criminal
offense(s) has occurred, but the onus will be on CMT to provide information
which would lead investigators to believe that there was no 'intent' to defraud
customers of thier money. This investigation is in its primary stages and will
be handled exclusively by D/Cst. Carriere of the Fraud Unit. In the interim, I
have been instructed to begin collecting preliminary information from other
members who paid money to CMT and then made attempts to contact CMT. Upon
receipt of the interested parties information, the Fraud Unit will assess this
information and then proceed accordingly if/when there appears to be enough
evidence to prove intent.


Should you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact
me.

Best Regards,

Chris Plue
-------------------------------------------

[mlehman]

This is about the worst result for everyone. Sounds like an accounting is inevitable now, however. Good luck to everyone who is looking at a potential loss in this affair.

[atsfan]

Pretty low to take deposits and then walk away and keep them.

[steveturner]

This CMT issue has been going on forever it seems with everyone going in circles. Pretty sad but i figure if this goes goes ahead as a legal and criminal matter many folks will be hearded up to get to the bottom of it! For sure as all this time has passed i dare say no one will see a dime of their deposits. If the deposits have not come to light now will they ever?. You can bet to there are other players here who are out not just the customers who plunked deposits down lets say 1 or 2 years ago. This situation could become a nightmare as all unfolds. There will be Subpoenas to get to the bottom of the issue with relunctant folks not wanting to say anything. A case like this if togo ahead could take over a year to amount to anything the way the legal system is all backed up. Hard pill to swollow but folks need toget on with life and put this down to a bad experience! Steve

[curtmc]

Curt,
What you haven't explained is how carrman and I are wrong. Sure, you've added to the story, but so far I've yet to see any contradiction of our postings.

Paul, you were simply incorrect in your posting of how the UP licensing fiasco started with OMI and the Olympic SD70M units. UP, Coke and even GE licensing on models existed several years before those SD70Ms were done. And after hearing Brian complain many times about what all they had to go through (and what they had to pay in several cases) to get licensing approval from various companies (and some of that prior to 2001), I can't see how he was a force behind the licensing. He may have been opposed to the prospect of some being able to do production without getting the licensing he had paid for, but I don't think he liked the licensing ordeals.

[Judge Doom]

It only seems like forever on the internet world, where topics are forgotten about in mere days or weeks. In reality, it's been a few months since CMT posted their last reply to customers about changing their business model, sold their inventory off to TLT, and neglected to respond to their suppliers and (former) customers.

Laws exist for a reason, to protect the interests of the people and keep people/businesses from pulling the plug and running with other peoples' money. While the legal wheels aren't known for turning quickly, without them you as a customer might as well give your money away.

Sept 30, 2012 17:18:53 GMT -8 steveturner said:

This CMT issue has been going on forever it seems with everyone going in circles. Pretty sad but i figure if this goes goes ahead as a legal and criminal matter many folks will be hearded up to get to the bottom of it! For sure as all this time has passed i dare say no one will see a dime of their deposits. If the deposits have not come to light now will they ever?. You can bet to there are other players here who are out not just the customers who plunked deposits down lets say 1 or 2 years ago. This situation could become a nightmare as all unfolds. There will be Subpoenas to get to the bottom of the issue with relunctant folks not wanting to say anything. A case like this if togo ahead could take over a year to amount to anything the way the legal system is all backed up. Hard pill to swollow but folks need toget on with life and put this down to a bad experience! Steve

[atsfan]

Question, since the 2002 Salt Lake Games are long over, are they still copyrighted etc such that Micro scale now could not do the decals? Or do them for a small fee, as in, who is paying money 10 years later to hype those games?

[johndmock]

Sept 30, 2012 16:46:35 GMT -8 atsfan said:

Pretty low to take deposits and then walk away and keep them.

For those who have been around this hobby for a period of years, this is not the first time this has happened. Other dealers out there have done the same thing. There is nothing new under the sun.

[Paul Cutler III]

Oct 1, 2012 8:22:03 GMT -8 curtmc said:

Paul, you were simply incorrect in your posting of how the UP licensing fiasco started with OMI and the Olympic SD70M units. UP, Coke and even GE licensing on models existed several years before those SD70Ms were done. And after hearing Brian complain many times about what all they had to go through (and what they had to pay in several cases) to get licensing approval from various companies (and some of that prior to 2001), I can't see how he was a force behind the licensing. He may have been opposed to the prospect of some being able to do production without getting the licensing he had paid for, but I don't think he liked the licensing ordeals.

Curt,
(BTW, over a month later for a reply? Anyways...) I just dug up the old Atlas Forum Archives. Here's a quote from 5/24/04 in regards to who was on the approved list for UP Licensing:

The first time I saw the listing (about 8 months ago) the only HO manufacturer on it I saw was Overland...

The funny part here is that you are the one that posted that.

As for the rest, yes, UP, CSX and others had a flat, minimal fee for licensing pre-dating the Olympic units, according to those old posts on the Forum (Coke having their own, much more restrictive licensing for decades before). However, it wasn't until 2002 that UP changed to the overly restricting licensing policy they had until November 2006 when MTH and Steamscenes Calendars actually fought UP's lawyers and UP's new leadership team wanted to make it all go away.

Now, what happened in 2002? The Salt Lake City Olympic Games. Who brought out brass HO models of the UP Salt Lake City Olympic SD70's? Overland. Who was the first HO manufacturer to be signed up with UP's overly restrictive licensing program, and the only one as of the Fall of 2003? Overland. Coincidence?

The question is did Brian Marsh request exclusive rights to produce the 2002 Olympic units? Did he kick off UP's licensing program by doing so, or perhaps by even complaining to UP that he had to jump through all these hoops when others didn't? The fact that he was the first to sign on is rather telling, don't you think?