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Post by bn7023 on Oct 22, 2022 10:03:42 GMT -8
Zinc die-casting failures are sporadic. So the onset is only in that manufacturing lot. If you find a zinc pest or something like that, please report it so we can identify it. In addition to the year of manufacture, the paint scheme is also required. Keeping the body shell separate from the bad diecast frame will save it from destruction. I would like a picture of what happened. It is a problem that it is not uploaded in this thread at all. Trix/Märklin PRR 3-boxcar set 2005-2006? MDC-Roundhouse 36' wood reefer, Coors Beer, year of manufacture unknown
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 22, 2022 11:19:47 GMT -8
It is a problem that it is not uploaded in this thread at all. Really? It looks to me to be almost the exclusive subject. Not in this thread, but I've posted a photo of a Walthers car. I'll do it again, here: To find the particular car and run date, I suggest starting with the reporting mark and number from the model: TTWX 993511 While reporting zinc pest occurrence to the manufacturer is a good thing (I called Walthers and talked to someone there), it typically is years later. Sure, the manufacturer will now know that one of his suppliers screwed up years ago. And that may well lead to a discussion between them. But if that supplier is long gone, or HIS supplier is long gone, nothing's going to happen. I do suggest taking samples from incoming models and having the metal lab tested. This could prevent the problem ever being shipped out to eventual unhappy customers. Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 22, 2022 11:26:22 GMT -8
bn7023 may well be saying that there aren't enough details posted on individual problems. While I don't see how that will fix things, it still should be done, just to prove it's happening.
If anyone out there wants a picture of such damage posted (but can't pull it off), contact me. You send me a jpg, a good one please, and I'll put it here.
Ed
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Post by oldmuley on Oct 22, 2022 16:51:47 GMT -8
I've had the frames of several Walthers Bethgon Coalporters go tits-up.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 22, 2022 17:23:02 GMT -8
Photos?
Ed
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Post by atsf_4 on Oct 22, 2022 17:58:00 GMT -8
I don't know that any manufacturer has been totally immune to this issue (except some newbies perhaps).
From reading this thread it seems that Walthers/Life-Like has maybe had more instances of this than some others, but those two also pumped out an awful lot of product.
Ed is right about the long timeframe resulting in many years transpiring before the manufacturer knows there's a problem with a given run, and what are they to do then? LifeLike was most likely gone, bought out and aborbed by Walthers, before some of these issues reared their head. What is Walthers to do? I don't think they could afford to replace a bunch of products. Do we all want to pay still even more for that, on every product made, for some kind of zinc pest insurance?
Even if you tested a relative handful of each model run that came in, that would not necessarily find the bad metal, because often it is not all items of a given run that are affected. It would still be easy to miss. One might catch some, of course, but some would be missed. The better loco runs can easily have 2000 or 3000 or more units. Whomever is doing the casting is likely to not have done all those frames or metal weights or whatever in the very same day, so there could be multiple pots of metal involved. Even within a day there could be several pots of metal used.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 22, 2022 20:08:55 GMT -8
I don't know that any manufacturer has been totally immune to this issue (except some newbies perhaps). You don't. I do. Athearn doesn't appear to have had a problem. BLI, either, though I feel the jury's still out. OK. Now we've established that you don't know things. Tough question: make sure the problem doesn't happen on THEIR watch. Nobody expects Walthers to cover LifeLike's mistakes (if there are any). But they should take care of theirs. That's your opinion. But morally, they should. Don't you agree? An interesting question. How much would YOU be willing to pay to insure that your models were never again struck with zinc pest? A dollar? Or maybe you just "feel lucky". You are making assumptions about testing and metallurgy that I don't think are based on fact. Nevertheless, just because it's difficult, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I remind you that Zamak was invented almost 100 years ago to solve this problem. Any manufacturer who cares about his customers should be using alloys based on this concept. It's been a CENTURY. THERE IS NO EXCUSE! (despite your apparent yearning for one) Ed
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 22, 2022 23:25:03 GMT -8
The only Athearn I can think of offhand where there were issues, I ran across an example of the old 1960s B&M Pacific, where the bottom half of it, lower boiler, frame and all is all cast, and it was bent like a banana.
I did however run into something more strange, twice, once in a Hi-F F7 and once in a SW7. The motor magnet disintegrated. Still magnetic, but looked like a bunch of iron filings. No idea what could cause that.
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Post by atsf_4 on Oct 23, 2022 5:51:30 GMT -8
Ed-
Before we get more ugly, let me clearly state a couple things:
I've DONE the zinc casting myself. I've placed new bars of zinc in the pot as the day went along, so I know the pot gets emptied even within a day and has to be replenished with new metal. Therefore if impurities get in, some castings will be good and some not.
Also companies including but not limited to Lionel DELIBERATELY PUT lead into the zamac alloy because it helped the metal flow better into the molds! And this was within the last 100 years!
I'm not here to make excuses for any manufacturer, but you are out of your mind. Today's manufacturers do actually care but this is like trying to insure against hurricanes in Florida (which my home insurer, Erie, refuses to insure any homes in the Southeast so we don't have to pay increased rates when those happen).
When your car interior starts to fall apart from the sun damage to fabric and plastic, after 15 years or so, do you expect the manufacturer to replace your interior for you? I like Toyota's and Honda's because they last, but the interiors will still fall apart in less time than it takes for zinc pest to occur.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 23, 2022 7:24:28 GMT -8
Ed- Before we get more ugly, I don't regard disagreeing with someone as "ugly". "Ugly" typically involves personal attacks, which has not happened. If impurities get in, either throughout a batch of bars, or only in a small fraction, that would mean your supplier is selling you defective product. I would think it more likely that the impurities would be evenly distributed throughout all of the bars from a single batch, but I suppose if the melt was not properly mixed, there could be unevenness in the contaminant distribution. And it shouldn't surprise us that a supplier that would selll contaminated alloy would also fail in other matters. I expect that it's very important to buy alloy from a reputable supplier. Since it's been known that lead is a contaminant for zinc alloy since 1923, that would imply that Lionel knew their casting would fail in the future. That doesn't make Lionel look very good, unless they claim that they're only making toys for children, and thus those toys only need to last until a particular child has grown out of them. LOVE to see that argued in the Supreme Court. I'll let that "...out of your mind." pass, as it's pretty mild in this forum. I'll work with your analogy, and suggest that if you pay some extra to make sure your house is strong enough to withstand a hurricane, then you don't need insurance. Ducking back out of the analogy, if the castings are made with alloy from a reputable supplier, it will cost more. I suggest paying the extra. Or, if there are other ways to guarantee the alloy, do those. An interesting example. You left out the parts on cars that are made from zinc alloy. How often do you see car parts with zinc pest? As to your comment about plastic: back in the sixties, US automakers thought it would be a good idea to make dashboards out of plastic instead of stamped steel. My daughter bought one of those cars, and by the time she bought it, the plastic dashboard looked like a dried-out mudfield. NOW, I have a plastic dashboard in my van that looks nice enough 20 years after its manufacture. My point is that, given the incentive of business reputation and customer irritation, fixes can be made. There is no excuse for zinc pest in our products. Ed
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Post by upcsx on Oct 23, 2022 9:56:11 GMT -8
The Intermountain ES4400 NS Southern was not warped when I got it took it out of the box to run it and the handrails on the front were broke in half because of the warp. checked out the NKP unit and it is on its way so I disconected its handrails.and I mailed Intermountain and they might have replacement frames and that been a week now.
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 23, 2022 10:31:53 GMT -8
Even the dashboard thing is subjective; if you parked your car in a garage, the dashboard would see less heat and less damage. Cars in southern climates tend to see much worse damage than in the north, because they see more heat and sun.
I wouldn't be shocked to find zinc issues caused by something as simple as someone handling the material with bare hands putting it in the pot and a little oil from your fingers contaminating it.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 23, 2022 11:16:42 GMT -8
Even the dashboard thing is subjective; if you parked your car in a garage, the dashboard would see less heat and less damage. Cars in southern climates tend to see much worse damage than in the north, because they see more heat and sun. I know my van has never seen the inside of a garage. And both vehicles spent their lives in the same area. I would. If you go through the list of impurities that are specifically controlled in Zamak alloying, they are all metals: lead, cadmium, tin, iron, nickel and silicon (an honorary metal, in this case). If you have enough of those in your skin oil to cause a problem in casting, you're probably already dead, and unlikely to show up for work. Skin oil is, well, oil (as you state). That's a hydrocarbon, generally not filled with metallic ions. Which probably explains why oil is a good insulator (ie: non-conductive). Ed
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Post by hudsonyard on Oct 23, 2022 14:29:39 GMT -8
I lost a atlas RS3 to the dreaded pest earlier this year, it had been packed away for nearly a decade. if anything the fact it became a parts unit finally gave me the courage to start chopping into it to add KV models etched details, gotta find a decent LHR number board set, the ancient short line models ones i have just aren't gonna cut it.
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 23, 2022 18:15:13 GMT -8
Even the dashboard thing is subjective; if you parked your car in a garage, the dashboard would see less heat and less damage. Cars in southern climates tend to see much worse damage than in the north, because they see more heat and sun. I know my van has never seen the inside of a garage. And both vehicles spent their lives in the same area. Ed Well, the way the dash is made varies from vehicle to vehicle too. Vans like mine I don't think I've ever seen a cracked dash in. Same year Dodge pickup, you almost never find one the dash isn't falling apart in.
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Post by atsf_4 on Oct 25, 2022 9:29:14 GMT -8
Ed--
By the way, it's not kind to say or imply somebody doesn't know anything. You did. That pissed me off big time; I stayed relatively respectful in my reply. We could get a whole lot more ugly than that.
You would have to test each and every single pot of metal! and then wait for the test results before using it! That's practically speaking impossible to do! How much more do you think it would cost to test literally every single bar? People are already complaining about product cost all the freakin' time, and you want to add an additional cost that doesn't really add that much value.
If you only spot test some, then you could miss potentially many times the lead percentage exceeded the tiny amount necessary to cause zinc pest.
And I know for absolute FACT that Lionel as well as other toy manufacturers (like Dinky) WERE using lead to make the metal flow into the molds more effectively, and within the last hundred years. My employer repaired a lot of Lionel trains and the wheels from certain pre-WWII trains will crumble to dust within your hands. We made and sold exact zinc copies (but without the lead) of those Lionel wheels, and we sold a lot of them. In the case of some other old trains, it's not just the wheels that crumble to dust but the body.
You say you know for sure that Athearn hasn't had zinc pest, but then I saw a post where it said that Athearn HAS had products that have had zinc pest.
So that leaves BLI. Yes, I've never once heard a zinc pest complaint about a BLI product. Yet most of the people on this forum seem to think BLI products are basically junk, at least electronic-wise. Apparently only one person on this forum suggested that they would prefer a BLI E unit. So apparently they haven't had a zinc pest issue, but are just not a very popular manufacturer.
Gee whose product should I buy then?
Maybe if one is THAT concerned it would be reasonable and prudent to buy a range of locos (I don't care what happens to my freight cars; I view them as throw away if needed) to minimize the probability that all my trains will crumble, but then I'd likely be dead and gone before some of today's trains crumble anyway, even if they have zinc pest. Guess what? I actually do buy a variety of trains even from manufacturers that have really p...d me off. Kinda like the way PRR kept some in business by buying from everybody...
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 25, 2022 13:11:39 GMT -8
Ed-- By the way, it's not kind to say or imply somebody doesn't know anything. You did. That pissed me off big time; I stayed relatively respectful in my reply. We could get a whole lot more ugly than that. Yes, you are right. That was not right. I apologize. What bothered me about your statement is that it implied or stated (I believe) that zinc pest was inevitable. Just a fact of life. I believe it is more a matter of quality control. I think it depends on how the ingots are produced. If there's a single melt, and the pot is well stirred, any contaminants should be evenly distributed throughout every ingot. On the other hand, if there's some sort of continuous process, I can see how there could be some ingots only that had the contaminant. What I'm not seeing is a good reason to add contaminants to the melt. Unless being cheaper and easier is a good reason. My above comments refer to the producer of the ingots, not the consumer. Okay. I wonder if they knew it would develop zinc pest. If you don't know, or don't believe, why not then just do it. Unfortunately, they were wrong. Which explains your ability to sell replacement wheels. I'll note that YOU were able to cast the wheels without lead. So Lionel COULD have done it too, right? I said "Athearn doesn't appear to have had a problem." That's a long ways from" knowing for sure". And now one example has turned up. Walthers, for the E unit. I guess I'm not THAT concerned, probably because it's not common enough. But I still think it's unacceptable. And should zinc pest appear to be "frequent" with a particular manufacturer, it will affect my purchases. It's already made me glad I got a few spares of the Walthers flush deck flat, for sacrifice. Ed
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Post by atsf_4 on Oct 30, 2022 12:05:02 GMT -8
I was not trying to be dismissive of people's concerns. It of course is a legitimate concern, and I did not mean to infer that it was not.
My issue is the problem-solving point of view: practically speaking how does one actually STOP it from occurring? I do not know how long a test would take or what each test would cost, but either way, testing the metal will drive up costs.
It also takes so long to rear its ugly head that one could think one is buying good product and be surprised later.
To me, as a consumer, I would continue to buy a variety of products from various importers or builders to average out as much possible exposure to zinc pest as possible.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 30, 2022 13:28:12 GMT -8
The best way to stop zinc pest from happening is to use alloy with the proper low level of lead.
One approach is to search out a trusted supplier. If you choose wisely, or luckily, that's it. You'll be supplied with great quality alloy. Just like that. It will surely cost more than a low-bid supplier.
Or one can be a bit more suspicious, and start doing one's own testing. A VERY ballparky cost is $60, with a week's turnaround. Of course, you then have the decision of how many tests to use. Since you likely bought your alloy in a batch, it is likely that it's evenly mixed, and you'd only have to do a few tests for that big pile of ingots. HOWEVER. If somehow the alloy wasn't mixed thoroughly, it's possible the concentration of lead would vary, thus requiring more samples.
A problem with buying products from various importes or builders is that most of us don't purchase our trains so as to spread the risk of zinc pest. We buy what we want. So if only one manufacturer makes what you want, that's what you buy.
A possibility is that all the model railroad manufacturers that use zinc alloy casting could gang together to find high quality suppliers, maybe through their industry group (MRIA?). Then costs for testing could be spread out, too.
Ed
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Post by atsf_4 on Oct 30, 2022 15:31:27 GMT -8
You noted that BLI has, at least so far as we know, not experienced any issues with zinc pest.
Their factor(ies?) are located in South Korea. I personally would be more inclined to trust metal suppliers in South Korea or Japan, than those in China.
Model trains are a rather small market compared to all the other toys that are made, and I question the practical ability to actually assure quality metal supplies. There is a strong financial incentive for people or suppliers to say whatever it is that you want to hear.
One could do verification testing, sure, but that might not go over so well (ie could possibly be considered to be offensive to them).
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 30, 2022 16:30:20 GMT -8
You noted that BLI has, at least so far as we know, not experienced any issues with zinc pest. Their factor(ies?) are located in South Korea. I personally would be more inclined to trust metal suppliers in South Korea or Japan, than those in China. Model trains are a rather small market compared to all the other toys that are made, and I question the practical ability to actually assure quality metal supplies. There is a strong financial incentive for people or suppliers to say whatever it is that you want to hear. One could do verification testing, sure, but that might not go over so well (ie could possibly be considered to be offensive to them). Since it might hurt their feelings, we could just not tell them. And find another vendor. Ed
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Post by bn7023 on Oct 30, 2022 16:38:44 GMT -8
Zinc pest is referred to in the industry as "zinc die casting intercrystalline corrosion cracking". According to Japanese literature, the total amount of lead, tin, and cadmium as impurities must be 0.005% or less. According to the Japanese Industrial Standards, it is 0.01% or less by adding a certain amount of magnesium, which is an inhibitor. Zinc die cast ingots are supplied in this standard. However, at manufacturing sites, runners and other materials are remelted and used as return materials in order to save raw materials. At this time, impurities are mixed in, and magnesium evaporates and becomes less. This is resulting in inappropriate castings. For this reason, in 1961, the Japan Die Casting Association established a zinc alloy die casting quality certification system. Submit the analysis sample of zinc die casting to the association on a specified day of every month. The association analyzes these with a spectroscopic analyzer, judges whether or not they are suitable in light of the chemical composition standards, and reports to the members. In the case of passing, the passing mark can be used. In 2004, warnings were issued about defective imported parts. www.diecasting.or.jp/hinshitsu/index.phporist.jp/content/files/technicalsheet/10020.PDFjglobal.jst.go.jp/detail?JGLOBAL_ID=201202217562116172jlzda.gr.jp/img_in/news_l.gif
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Post by scl1234 on Oct 31, 2022 12:06:49 GMT -8
Perhaps you intended to say “oxidize” instead of “evaporate”.
Metals and most other solids oxidize.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 31, 2022 15:09:28 GMT -8
I once had a job where I worked on a machine that evaporated metal (an alloy, actually: CoCrAlY--pronounced cocrawly). So it does happen.
I suspect evaporation is the correct term.
I am wondering about the "...impurities...mixed in...". It's said as if it was intentional, or at least unavoidable. I wonder at that.
Ed
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Post by atsf_4 on Oct 31, 2022 20:43:15 GMT -8
Yes, anything re-melted could introduce impurities based upon where it may have been, or if the wrong (lead) casting is mistakenly thrown into a pot of zinc. If people do not thoroughly check what defective castings are in the boxes for re-melting, well it can happen. My boss personally checked those boxes and got very irate when the wrong defective casting was placed into the wrong box. Zinc casting was done in its own separate building to keep the lead out, but machining/drilling etc. was done in another building where there were lead castings also, so it was possible to get defective castings mixed. That is why he checked.
Due to the California warnings for lead, most lead castings should have already been eliminated from model train manufacturing, but during the last 20 years, there definitely were still some lead castings being used, which might possibly explain those issues with weights and frames discussed in the last 3 pages.
So Japan has metal testing and standards. That is great to hear. We probably don't have to worry about Kato products then.
Sure, one could have metal verification testing done in China, but how the results are handled, whether diplomatically or not so much, could result in one losing more than just a metal supplier. Also, some US importers actually share factories with others, so I have absolutely no idea how much power they would or would not have to control who supplied the metal. Just sayin'.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 1, 2022 6:01:21 GMT -8
So in the case of remelt, it is a matter of quality control if lead is introduced, and thus not intentional or inevitable. For example, doing casting with lead could be done at a different location, and then it's a near impossibility to have lead contamination in the zinc alloy.
I was suggesting having the metal testing done here. It would be later in the product chain, and thus more ittitating and costly. I suggest that is better than just passing the problem down to the consumer.
Impressive that Japan does testing. If the US does it, it's a closely held secret. I note that the MRIA (the model railroad industrial group) is now a part of HMA. That organization could perhaps do something. I wonder if they are doing anything already to solve the problem.
Ed
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abm
Junior Member
Posts: 65
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Post by abm on Nov 1, 2022 6:29:24 GMT -8
In my career as a manufacturing engineer I spent a little over 4 years at a die casting foundry that processed both aluminum and zinc, several different alloys of each. Aluminum in cold-chamber machines, zinc in hot-chamber machines, though we did have a few larger zinc parts that ran cold-chamber with a flame heater on the shot cylinder.
We were a small-ish operation and did not have an in-house metallurgy lab, but neither did most larger operations in our industry. However control of incoming raw material was strict; domestically-sourced and fully CofC'd ingot, and we tracked the heats carefully. Again, common practice in our industry. Junk in = junk out, and you pay for what you get.
Using re-melt was not uncommon, but we also routinely made parts from virgin material to customer specifications. Re-melt was controlled by alloy and we were careful not to mix in too much at any one time; we also took pains to keep dross out of the re-melt bins.
Speaking of dross, that's the industry term for the oxides and other impurities that precipitate (not evaporate) out of the molten metal. Dross was more of an issue on the aluminum side (higher temps!) but zinc alloys could produce considerable dross as well. Some alloys were kept molten under an argon blanket to cut down on dross formation. I once spent 6 months analyzing and then developing a solution for excess oxide formation in a particular aluminum alloy which featured a high percentage of magnesium; learned a lot on that project. Part of the solution involved "spiking" the baths with small ingots of raw magnesium on a certain schedule, to make up for mag which burned out (oxidized).
Probably the largest source of contamination was die spray and antilowa (an anti-soldering paste) left on scrapped shot pucks, parts, gates/runners, etc. It didn't just burn off cleanly when re-melted so really nasty stuff was supposed to be kept out of the re-melt bins, but some of it got in there anyway.
We heard anecdotally from customers and other industry sources that QA and material control was a joke in many Asian foundries. I later worked in a different industry where I was responsible for finishing processes on parts including Asian-sourced aluminum die castings, and found out first-hand just how poor their material control was (and we were buying the parts from supposedly reputable operations). CofC's were routinely doctored/adulterated or just flat-out faked. I do know it was better in captive operations (think: auto industry) but I doubt most model RR manufacturers have access to those facilities (again... you pay for what you get).
Somebody a few posts up mentioned fingerprints: we a ran a few zinc parts in hard, highly-polished tools that would produce almost a mirror-finish on the cast part. A big greasy fingerprint on the face of the die would actually show up on the first few parts off the machine; even with flame heaters on the tools, you'd be surprised how many shots it took to burn off the residue.
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Post by atsf_4 on Nov 1, 2022 8:57:34 GMT -8
abm--
Thank you for your informative post.
Also, it kinda aligns with what I've been saying: QA and material control is a joke in many Asian foundries.
One could test products here, once they are already fully assembled, which likely could destroy some of them, and also at that point if something is found to be wrong it is too late to do anything about it. (Also, the importer will have already paid for the product and will own it at that point.) For economic reasons both the manufacturer/importer and the distributor/dealer network desire to get the product out into the hands of their buyers. There is strong financial incentive to ship the product out and hope that it's ok. Folks are already complaining about the typical year or more that it takes to deliver once orders are taken.
Real world example: I just received some brand-new high end and high-priced covered hoppers that were defective (bad assembly) and had to go back to the importer/manufacturer for refund. I was told that some of them are fantastic and have indeed gotten rave reviews, but the manufacturer also acknowledges that some of the exact same product run were poorly assembled and shipped to him anyway. Either way I'm getting a full refund. He has already pulled the project from the current builder. There will be more delays until other hoppers get out to the buyers.
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abm
Junior Member
Posts: 65
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Post by abm on Nov 1, 2022 10:37:00 GMT -8
I'll add this about working with Asian suppliers (mostly China, some SEA): it's not that they're not capable of producing quality products, or following QA/QC practices, or process improvement... they're often quite capable of it. They just seemed to take the concept of "you get what you pay for" to the extreme. The suppliers we worked with were very well aware that many US companies were sourcing products overseas primarily for cost reasons, and what I was able to glean was a bit of an attitude of "you obviously don't care all that much about these parts (since you're so focused on low cost), so why should we care?". They often looked at some of the stuff we did (applying the same QA controls to every part we made, regardless of the customer, cost... or profit margin...) as wasteful.
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Post by Baikal on Nov 1, 2022 15:17:27 GMT -8
A possibility is that all the model railroad manufacturers that use zinc alloy casting could gang together to find high quality suppliers, maybe through their industry group (MRIA?). Then costs for testing could be spread out, too. Ed
Or not.
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