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Post by calzephyr on Sept 10, 2012 17:26:00 GMT -8
If you had any reservations with CMT, please read this message. I know it is a repeat but Brian is not able to reach a lot of the previous customers that had reservations with CMT. Thanks for looking Larry OMI Seeking Canadian Model Trains Pre-Order Customers Greetings! This evening we are coming to you with a very special request and for your understanding. During the past three weeks we have been working hard to reach pre-order customers of Canadian Model Trains but have not mentioned them by name. With this message we are clearly changing directions and need to reach out to ALL Canadian Model Trains customers that have ANY Overland Models products on pre-order. During the past three weeks we have made numerous efforts to reach out to Canadian Model Trains to reach the full understanding of what CMT is doing with its business. Unfortunately with each conversation we have not been able to gain full understanding of their future. Each call is met with CMT commenting that an update will follow or more details will come in a day or two. Frankly, we need to move forward with our business and cannot be harmed by the lack of communication provided by Canadian Model Trains. Note that we do not know or fully understand the future of CMT but come to the conclusion of sending this message due to the following. 1. We have written to CMT a number of times regarding their future and have not received their written or verbal reply. 2. We have sent out a pick-up notice/ payment request for the models listed directly below and placed important milestones for their confirmation and payment and have not received any reply. 3. The CMT website at www.modeltrains.com has been redirected to another unaffiliated business until further notice. 4. The CMT fax number has been disconnected. 5. All forms of social media the CMT was once very active in its communications have all been cancelled as evidenced by their Facebook page, Twitter page and YouTube channels all now de-activated. Again, we are not making any claim toward the health and/ or welfare of CMT, but reaching out to retail customers to make sure you are not harmed by whatever may be happening at CMT. Yes, we are aware of the fact that their website directs you to another party...but they have not received any of the customer deposits, nor do they have all of the information regarding Overland Model pre-orders. We have made a number of indirect efforts through customer e-mails such as this as well as through Trainorders, Canadian Model Trains Forum and through many personal phone calls and e-mail communications. As of today we have heard from enough customers to link customer names to about 100 of the over 350 brass Overland models on pre-order with Canadian Model Trains. CMT customers that have already reached out to us do not need to contact regarding this message. We are specifically seeking communication with Canadian Model Trains customers that have Overland Models on pre-order and have NOT yet been in contact with Overland Models. We, OMI, realize that CMT customers have placed deposits on our products and want to be very clear that Overland Models does not possess the deposits that Canadian Trains collected. The deposits that CMT collected were based upon a CMT business policy and not at the request of Overland Models...except for those requested for O scale productions. Please, if you are a CMT customer that has Overland Models on pre-order...please contact us now with your name, phone number and preferably a list of Overland Models on pre-order. Typically CMT provided customers with a sales order listing the models on pre-order along with the amount of the deposit. We will work with you on a case-by-case basis to assist you. NOTE: If we do not hear from CMT customers with Overland Models pre-orders then your pre-order will be lost and your requested models sold to another dealer. We do not want to sell these models, but soon we will have no choice but to cancel the CMT pre-orders in full if we do not hear from you. Finally, if you are not a CMT customer then you do not need to check in or re-confirm your orders. If you do know of a CMT customer, could you please forward this message to them using the forward link directly below. Or, if you know of a friend that is a CMT customer that does not have e-mail would you consider reaching out to them and asking that they connect with us via phone as soon as possible. You can reach Overland Models via the following methods: Phone: 765-289-4257 Fax: 765-289-6013 e-mail: bmarsh@overlandmodels.com Sincerely, Brian Marsh Overland Models, Inc. |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 10, 2012 22:42:53 GMT -8
That's a very gracefully worded letter. OMI is in a tough spot. I'm fairly certain that OMI doesn't have all ~350 models ready for pic-up right now, as that's probably a standing total of orders on their books when CMT effectively went incommunicado. However, I'll bet it's a substantial number, which OMI can't let sit indefinitely while things sort themselves out.
Good for Brian for doing his best to not let anyone down he can possibly avoid disappointing.
I'm sure it's not as true now as it used to be, but depending on where you lived, news might travel pretty slowly in Canada for a few on the fringes of the postal system. Those days are pretty much past, however, but I think some patience for people getting the word is called for. That's seems to be exactly what OMI is doing.
One can only presume that among the CMT customers who've contacted OMI already are probably a fair number who've also made a local call -- to the provincial authorities. The other shoe may be about to drop, indeed sort of needs to if people are to have a chance of getting whatever part of their deposit back may be possible under a bankruptcy -- or worse.
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 11, 2012 6:14:41 GMT -8
That's a very gracefully worded letter. OMI is in a tough spot. I'm fairly certain that OMI doesn't have all ~350 models ready for pic-up right now, as that's probably a standing total of orders on their books when CMT effectively went incommunicado. However, I'll bet it's a substantial number, which OMI can't let sit indefinitely while things sort themselves out. Good for Brian for doing his best to not let anyone down he can possibly avoid disappointing. I'm sure it's not as true now as it used to be, but depending on where you lived, news might travel pretty slowly in Canada for a few on the fringes of the postal system. Those days are pretty much past, however, but I think some patience for people getting the word is called for. That's seems to be exactly what OMI is doing. One can only presume that among the CMT customers who've contacted OMI already are probably a fair number who've also made a local call -- to the provincial authorities. The other shoe may be about to drop, indeed sort of needs to if people are to have a chance of getting whatever part of their deposit back may be possible under a bankruptcy -- or worse. I hope Brian is able to get the buyers of the reservations to continue and pick up the products. It is not easy to unload new brass diesels in this business climate and the prices have escalated to the point that many of us who normally buy new items have stopped making the purchases. I have purchased several Overland steam models from CMT in the past years and liked their service at that time. Tom was friendly and worked out my layaway plan with no problems. My purchases were items in stock and the site had great pictures to show the detail of the model. I have always refused to make a deposit on brass model and in the past, that was not necessary for most dealers. It is different now with money being tight and importers need to have the brass sold by reservations to avoid being stuck with a lot of inventory. Good luck to Brian Larry |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 7:19:49 GMT -8
I think about the people that have deposits with CMT. What's happened to the money? OMI doesn't have the money. What price are the people expected to pay? MSRP? or some other price if they go direct to OMI?
Lots of questions and few answers. Its a total can of worms.
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 11, 2012 9:13:17 GMT -8
I think about the people that have deposits with CMT. What's happened to the money? OMI doesn't have the money. What price are the people expected to pay? MSRP? or some other price if they go direct to OMI? Lots of questions and few answers. Its a total can of worms. There is a way of solving that problem. Overland could sell directly to the person that had a deposit on a reservation and simple discount the price the amount of the deposit since the item dealer price would have been discounted the 30% or 40% on brass. If Brian would do that for these buyers, they would not lose any of their money and Overland would still get their same or even larger portion of the price. No one really would lose on this type of deal if they still wanted the product. Larry |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 11, 2012 10:08:00 GMT -8
I think about the people that have deposits with CMT. What's happened to the money? OMI doesn't have the money. What price are the people expected to pay? MSRP? or some other price if they go direct to OMI? Lots of questions and few answers. Its a total can of worms. There is a way of solving that problem. Overland could sell directly to the person that had a deposit on a reservation and simple discount the price the amount of the deposit since the item dealer price would have been discounted the 30% or 40% on brass. If Brian would do that for these buyers, they would not lose any of their money and Overland would still get their same or even larger portion of the price. No one really would lose on this type of deal if they still wanted the product. Larry I think that that's not an unreasonable idea. The problem might be that OMI doesn't have the names of the people who reserved through CMT. I think. And, there are a few unethical people who will claim to have had a reservation when they didn't. Or, perhaps I'm wrong there. And then, what happens if those people get their deposits back? Sort of a windfall for them. And yet it was OMI putting themselves out. Ed |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 11:43:11 GMT -8
I think about the people that have deposits with CMT. What's happened to the money? OMI doesn't have the money. What price are the people expected to pay? MSRP? or some other price if they go direct to OMI? Lots of questions and few answers. Its a total can of worms. There is a way of solving that problem. Overland could sell directly to the person that had a deposit on a reservation and simple discount the price the amount of the deposit since the item dealer price would have been discounted the 30% or 40% on brass. If Brian would do that for these buyers, they would not lose any of their money and Overland would still get their same or even larger portion of the price. No one really would lose on this type of deal if they still wanted the product. Larry 1. OMI doesn't have any records of the EXACT deposit amounts. 2. OMI doesn't know who made a deposit..... if any 3. OMI doesn't know the price quoted to the people. If CMT said a model is going to cost $225, for example, how is OMI supposed to know the price quoted? Mark my word, there WILL be people that will TRY to take advantage of the situation. The truth is as of right now, its a he said, she said and OMI is square in the middle. Can o' worms, which can easily become a lose lose situation for OMI. They are in one tough spot. |
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 11, 2012 12:48:55 GMT -8
There is a way of solving that problem. Overland could sell directly to the person that had a deposit on a reservation and simple discount the price the amount of the deposit since the item dealer price would have been discounted the 30% or 40% on brass. If Brian would do that for these buyers, they would not lose any of their money and Overland would still get their same or even larger portion of the price. No one really would lose on this type of deal if they still wanted the product. Larry 1. OMI doesn't have any records of the EXACT deposit amounts. 2. OMI doesn't know who made a deposit..... if any 3. OMI doesn't know the price quoted to the people. If CMT said a model is going to cost $225, for example, how is OMI supposed to know the price quoted? Mark my word, there WILL be people that will TRY to take advantage of the situation. The truth is as of right now, its a he said, she said and OMI is square in the middle. Can o' worms, which can easily become a lose lose situation for OMI. They are in one tough spot. All you have said is true for sure. There probably will be some that will try to get a deal that never had a reservation, but CMT required a deposit and the buyer should have a receipt. I would guess Overland would only work off of the list price and the buyer would have to show the deposit receipt if Brian is going to try and help the people who have lost money. It is a can of worms for sure like you said but if the people who have proper reservations do not contact Overland, nothing can be done. I believe that Brian is making a good faith offer to at least help with the reservation before releasing the item to other dealers. I don't see it at a real loss for Overland since they were not involved in the reservation money in any way. They can always sell the product to other buyers. The only downside for Overland might be they cannot unload the product quickly and some buyers might feel they have been cheated out of the reservation money. The buyers need to know the facts that CMT has the money and not Overland. Larry |
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Post by nw611 on Sept 11, 2012 13:05:16 GMT -8
If CMT is in bankruptcy and all its books disappeared, it could be a difficult situation not only for OMI and all those who placed deposits on brass pre-orders. I'm thinking of all the manufacturers and distributors who extended credit to CMT for their products and even of TLT, who purchased (in bona fide) an important assets (inventory) of a company owing money to other subjects. I remember that Bernie Paul's AHM bankruptcy, many years ago, sent into bankruptcy also its largest creditor (Rivarossi). Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 11, 2012 13:37:02 GMT -8
If CMT is in bankruptcy and all its books disappeared, it could be a difficult situation not only for OMI and all those who placed deposits on brass pre-orders. I'm thinking of all the manufacturers and distributors who extended credit to CMT for their products and even of TLT, who purchased (in bona fide) an important assets (inventory) of a company owing money to other subjects. I remember that Bernie Paul's AHM bankruptcy, many years ago, sent into bankruptcy also its largest creditor (Rivarossi). Ciao. Raffaele Raffaele If the records for CMT are gone or not released, the only people that can verify the reservations are the buyers. I have records of each of my purchases over the years mostly on the CC payments. If the buyers do not see the Overland notice, they will probably lose their reservation and of course the money with CMT. CMT was collecting the money but it was not passed on to Overland. Overland does not require a deposit so the key here is still with the buyer to get involved to try and recover their money. I remember getting an email several months ago from Tom at CMT explaining the exit from the Brass business. I did not respond as I had no reservations with CMT and had not purchased from them for several years at that time of receiving the email. I was still on their list of buyers so the email was sent to me also. I remember AHM also having purchased several Big Boys and Challengers from them before they went under. They were selling either one for $55 in those days and now it is fairly obvious that AHM was selling the models below the actual cost. I guess that one of the reasons they went under. In their case, they owed money to Rivarossi but in this case, CMT does not owe money to Overland. Brass is paid for before it is shipped. Larry Larry |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 11, 2012 14:08:03 GMT -8
If CMT is in bankruptcy and all its books disappeared If that happened, I would expect criminal proceedings rather than bankruptcy proceedings. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 11, 2012 14:14:08 GMT -8
There is a way of solving that problem. Overland could sell directly to the person that had a deposit on a reservation and simple discount the price the amount of the deposit since the item dealer price would have been discounted the 30% or 40% on brass. If Brian would do that for these buyers, they would not lose any of their money and Overland would still get their same or even larger portion of the price. No one really would lose on this type of deal if they still wanted the product. Larry 1. OMI doesn't have any records of the EXACT deposit amounts. 2. OMI doesn't know who made a deposit..... if any 3. OMI doesn't know the price quoted to the people. If CMT said a model is going to cost $225, for example, how is OMI supposed to know the price quoted? Mark my word, there WILL be people that will TRY to take advantage of the situation. The truth is as of right now, its a he said, she said and OMI is square in the middle. Can o' worms, which can easily become a lose lose situation for OMI. They are in one tough spot. Very well put! Thanks, Ed |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 16:09:30 GMT -8
According to OMI's "letter", and if you read in between the lines its actually a desperate plea, CMT had about 350 reservations, so far OMI has only been able to match up 100 reservations. This leaves 250 models which have no home. Currently OMI has a bunch of stuff that is in pick up notice status. If of the 250 models, a hundred are in this batch of recently arrived models, that is a lot of money for OMI to be sitting on. OMI is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't! 1. If OMI sits on the models in hope of finding the person that reserved the model at CMT, they have negative cash flow. 2. If OMI cuts bait and moves down the stand by list, they risk alienating a bunch of people and will more than likely be smeared in the model railroad arena. 3. If OMI has more models than stand by's they again are losing money as they sit on some very expensive models that who knows when they will sell. More land mines for OMI. 4. How does a person prove to OMI they actually paid a deposit? Credit cards only show a charge to CMT. A receipt from CMT for the deposit would be good, but stuff can be fudged and with no records, OMI could be stepping in a stinky pile of poo-poo. Remember we are talking about near $1000 models! There are plenty of deceitful people even in model trains, if there is a buck to be made..... 5. On some other boards, people have stated they paid for the models in full. OMI has no money from CMT and surely can't give a person a model for free. What can OMI do to make it right for this person? Offer them the model, they already paid for, at dealer net, plus taxes and shipping? How many people want to pay for $900 models twice?  ?? Other than a few wealthy people not many.....now see bullet point number 3! 6. On some other boards, people have stated they paid CMT for more than the standard deposit. Since OMI has no records or money, how do they handle this situation. They can't! There is too much elbow room for shady dealings. 7. Even if OMI can match up the person with the reservation and some how get past the deposit disappearance, what price do they charge the person? They have no records of what CMT quoted or CMT's pricing policies. OMI SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT TO SELL THESE MODELS DIRECTLY TO THE CONSUMER . The best way would be to give the person a list of OMI dealers, who will quote the person a price and conditions. You still have the sticky wicket of the non-existent deposit!!!! That deposit is the proverbial 800 pound gorilla in the room. If OMI says they will not honor the deposit, people WILL BE ANGRY and may tell OMI to stuff it! If OMI swallows the deposit.....think about $50 per 350 models....that is a mere $17,500......can OMI swallow this much lose, without it hurting? 8. What price did CMT quote to the buyer? OMI has NO verifiable records on the prices quoted. If they match the CMT quote, you still have that 800 pound gorilla sucking the missing deposit out of the bottom line for someone, be it OMI or the customer. When you are talking about $1000 models, dealers can vary in the hundreds in price difference. If OMI or a replacement dealer quotes a price much higher than CMT, they run the risk of people backing out..... in number! If they match the price, OMI or the replacement dealer has to feel comfortable with that price. Raffaele refreshed our memories about AHM's demise, which resulted in Rivarossi's slide. OMI is sliding down a similar slope with 250 unaccounted for reservations AND trying to make the 100 they know about happy, all while the 800 pound gorilla sits on OMI's financial chest.  Its not happy times in Muncie..... |
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 11, 2012 16:56:42 GMT -8
According to OMI's "letter", and if you read in between the lines its actually a desperate plea, CMT had about 350 reservations, so far OMI has only been able to match up 100 reservations. This leaves 250 models which have no home. Currently OMI has a bunch of stuff that is in pick up notice status. If of the 250 models, a hundred are in this batch of recently arrived models, that is a lot of money for OMI to be sitting on. OMI is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't! 1. If OMI sits on the models in hope of finding the person that reserved the model at CMT, they have negative cash flow. 2. If OMI cuts bait and moves down the stand by list, they risk alienating a bunch of people and will more than likely be smeared in the model railroad arena. 3. If OMI has more models than stand by's they again are losing money as they sit on some very expensive models that who knows when they will sell. More land mines for OMI. 4. How does a person prove to OMI they actually paid a deposit? Credit cards only show a charge to CMT. A receipt from CMT for the deposit would be good, but stuff can be fudged and with no records, OMI could be stepping in a stinky pile of poo-poo. Remember we are talking about near $1000 models! There are plenty of deceitful people even in model trains, if there is a buck to be made..... 5. On some other boards, people have stated they paid for the models in full. OMI has no money from CMT and surely can't give a person a model for free. What can OMI do to make it right for this person? Offer them the model, they already paid for, at dealer net, plus taxes and shipping? How many people want to pay for $900 models twice? ?? Other than a few wealthy people not many.....now see bullet point number 3! 6. On some other boards, people have stated they paid CMT for more than the standard deposit. Since OMI has no records or money, how do they handle this situation. They can't! There is too much elbow room for shady dealings. 7. Even if OMI can match up the person with the reservation and some how get past the deposit disappearance, what price do they charge the person? They have no records of what CMT quoted or CMT's pricing policies. OMI SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT TO SELL THESE MODELS DIRECTLY TO THE CONSUMER . The best way would be to give the person a list of OMI dealers, who will quote the person a price and conditions. You still have the sticky wicket of the non-existent deposit!!!! That deposit is the proverbial 800 pound gorilla in the room. If OMI says they will not honor the deposit, people WILL BE ANGRY and may tell OMI to stuff it! If OMI swallows the deposit.....think about $50 per 350 models....that is a mere $17,500......can OMI swallow this much lose, without it hurting? 8. What price did CMT quote to the buyer? OMI has NO verifiable records on the prices quoted. If they match the CMT quote, you still have that 800 pound gorilla sucking the missing deposit out of the bottom line for someone, be it OMI or the customer. When you are talking about $1000 models, dealers can vary in the hundreds in price difference. If OMI or a replacement dealer quotes a price much higher than CMT, they run the risk of people backing out..... in number! If they match the price, OMI or the replacement dealer has to feel comfortable with that price. Raffaele refreshed our memories about AHM's demise, which resulted in Rivarossi's slide. OMI is sliding down a similar slope with 250 unaccounted for reservations AND trying to make the 100 they know about happy, all while the 800 pound gorilla sits on OMI's financial chest. Its not happy times in Muncie..... Jim No doubt, there is no easy answer to the problem and some will try to take advantage. I am very happy I was not dealing with them any longer and have no layaways or reservations with them for a few years now. I hope Brian is able to get rid of his stock either way since this could be hard on his finances and future business if he cannot unload his stock. For those that are saying they paid in full, I really feel sorry for anyone that would pay in full before a brass item arrives and they will probably lose it all if CMT does not repay them. What is wrong with Muncie?? Don't you have a C&O 2-8-4 there?? Larry |
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Post by oakway on Sept 11, 2012 17:18:46 GMT -8
As far as "they should not sell directly to the consumer" , I think this is where the brass market is headed. Due to rising prices, and overall lower demand/ production numbers.
John
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Post by johndmock on Sept 11, 2012 20:03:04 GMT -8
I had a situation in the past where an authorized Overland Models dealer outright lied to me and sent me a defective model. Brian Marsh personally bent over backwards to resolve my problem with a defective nickel plated Santa Fe Alco PA--and the lying dealer in question is long gone from business.
Based on my past experiences dealing with Brian and his patience in answering questions and obtaining parts for my friends as well as myself, I have full confidence that he will do the best he can to make things right for those who contact him.
John
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Post by mlehman on Sept 11, 2012 22:04:43 GMT -8
If CMT is in bankruptcy and all its books disappeared If that happened, I would expect criminal proceedings rather than bankruptcy proceedings. Ed Exactly. I'm not sure what's involved with bankruptcy or other such orderly business shut down in Canada. After several weeks of non- or ineffective communication, it gets to be time to fish or cut bait, I suspect. You bite the bullet and start the process of unwinding a business under whatever process is available (this typically involves the official notice, but not actual reimbursements in the US until after at least some accounting for what assets are available.) If that isn't what is happening or isn't clearly on its way to happening, i.e. not all this incommunicado or disinformation stuff that people have reported, then it often turns into some sort of criminal matter south of the border, based on just paying attention to the business section and police blotter of the local paper. At a minimum, at this point if it's a matter of the business simply failing, then you want the protection that bankruptcy offers and you want to let people know that's what's going on. It's the only way to get any peace. Sure life sux, but there's a clear path forward and it's best just to tell people how it is, rather than try to keep putting them off. On the other hand, if you're chilling your heels in Rio already, thinking of that sweet Swiss bank account, then who cares about being honest with people at this point? Events or non-events are starting to define which that is. |
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 11, 2012 22:23:08 GMT -8
As far as "they should not sell directly to the consumer" , I think this is where the brass market is headed. Due to rising prices, and overall lower demand/ production numbers. John That might be the only way they will exist since most of the major dealers are now skipping most brass models completely. The problem with not having dealers is bad for the importers since they need to move product fast to recover money that has been out to the builders for months sometimes. They cannot work on a shoe string budget and survive. In the early 1970 era, every shop I went to had almost every PFM models available in their shop cases. Even small dealers had a great assortment of brass. The big problem with the brass market now is that Intermountain, Atlas, Genesis, and Kato diesel models coming at us have very good road specific detail and can be purchased with sound for less than one third of the price of brass. Larry |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 12, 2012 12:01:08 GMT -8
This is fairly simple.
Overland can help in getting a product to those who reserved them via CMT. This assumes CMT passed on the reservations to Overland such that Overland made the product.
If there was a deposting paid in money to CMT, Overland probably can't help there, as that money was held by CMT as far as I know.
I do not think Overland requires dealers to pay advanced reservation fees ?
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Post by johndmock on Sept 13, 2012 9:19:59 GMT -8
As clearly stated above, Overland does not require advance deposits for most models (excepting O gauge).
Most reputable HO brass importers generally do not require those deposits either--or at least generally did not when I was a buyer.
It is the dealers through the years who have started requiring deposits to weed out those customers who might cancel at the last minute--for whatever reason--and leave the dealer stuck with models.
Unfortunately I've been in this hobby long enough to see lots of "good" dealers rise to a level where they become well known, and then depart at some point. Sometimes the owner takes his own life (as happened with one well known brass dealer who specialized in diesels); sometimes the dealer absconds with cash. Some lesser known dealers become famous for their dishonesty by cheating people at train shows. The well informed buyers know who they are and avoid them--as they are still doing it today. The importers know who they are and won't sell new product to at least one of them--that is a big clue--if the dealer has no brand new product, currently available from importers, and no actual website at all--there may be a very good reason (beyond merely "not being able to meet the minimum order"). The particular dishonest dealer I'm thinking of is a regular participant at Timonium and Allentown train shows.
At the point any "dealer" starts requiring more than a "nominal" monetary deposit (however one might choose to describe nominal)--any knowledgeable buyer should begin to question the dealer's ethics (using your money to earn them interest) and should begin looking for another better dealer at that time. Anybody that wants a not yet produced item so badly that they'd even consider a 100% deposit up front is only encouraging the dealer to eventually make a dishonest move--and would be utterly foolish.
I can't say that is what will happen here or not, but I suspect that some folks might not see their deposits again. It would not be the first time in the brass hobby....
Beyond some catastrophic health issue, which I'm sure most would be willing to understand, one would have hoped that arrangments would have been made to carry over reservations and/or deposits to a successor.
John
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 13, 2012 9:49:38 GMT -8
As clearly stated above, Overland does not require advance deposits for most models (excepting O gauge). Most reputable HO brass importers generally do not require those deposits either--or at least generally did not when I was a buyer. It is the dealers through the years who have started requiring deposits to weed out those customers who might cancel at the last minute--for whatever reason--and leave the dealer stuck with models. Unfortunately I've been in this hobby long enough to see lots of "good" dealers rise to a level where they become well known, and then depart at some point. Sometimes the owner takes his own life (as happened with one well known brass dealer who specialized in diesels); sometimes the dealer absconds with cash. Some lesser known dealers become famous for their dishonesty by cheating people at train shows. The well informed buyers know who they are and avoid them--as they are still doing it today. The importers know who they are and won't sell new product to at least one of them--that is a big clue--if the dealer has no brand new product, currently available from importers, and no actual website at all--there may be a very good reason (beyond merely "not being able to meet the minimum order"). The particular dishonest dealer I'm thinking of is a regular participant at Timonium and Allentown train shows. At the point any "dealer" starts requiring more than a "nominal" monetary deposit (however one might choose to describe nominal)--any knowledgeable buyer should begin to question the dealer's ethics (using your money to earn them interest) and should begin looking for another better dealer at that time. I've watched too many come and go. The signs before they go, in hindsight, should have been obvious. Anybody that wants a not yet produced item so badly that they'd even consider a 100% deposit up front is only encouraging the dealer to eventually make a dishonest move--and would be utterly foolish. I can't say that is what will happen here or not, but I suspect that some folks might not see their deposits again. It would not be the first time in the brass hobby.... John John No doubt the deposits are probably gone without any chance of getting the money back. I have noticed most brass dealers I purchase from do not have much of the latest brass for sale as open stock. They tend to get the reservation items for customers but do not have any open stock any longer. I think this is common due to the high prices of brass models and the cost of stocking brass for months or years in some cases. For instance, there are still a few Challenger Imports models for sale at a major LHS that were imported in 2002 and 2003 before the went out of business. They have been stocked for 10 years. How is that a good return on their money?? Larry |
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Post by dti406 on Sept 13, 2012 10:43:15 GMT -8
For instance, there are still a few Challenger Imports models for sale at a major LHS that were imported in 2002 and 2003 before the went out of business. They have been stocked for 10 years. How is that a good return on their money?? Larry When I worked at a hobby shop back in the 70's their CPA stated that if anything was in inventory over three years that they had lost money on the item. Especially true where the LHS has to pay personal property taxes on their inventory. Rick J |
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 13, 2012 12:07:03 GMT -8
For instance, there are still a few Challenger Imports models for sale at a major LHS that were imported in 2002 and 2003 before the went out of business. They have been stocked for 10 years. How is that a good return on their money?? Larry When I worked at a hobby shop back in the 70's their CPA stated that if anything was in inventory over three years that they had lost money on the item. Especially true where the LHS has to pay personal property taxes on their inventory. Rick J Rick \ That makes sense about the fact inventory not sold in three years is losing money. My thought about this is inventory should be turned over in less than a year for a business to be profitable. Now that most diesel brass models sell for close to $1100, the wholesale cost must be in the $650 range and having ten of those in stock for two or three years would be very costly. The LHS would make more money by selling 50 Genesis models at a much lower list price. If a car dealer has a car on the lot after the model year is over, they are discounted to recover some money from the deal. Maybe this is one of a hundred reasons most LHS cannot be sold since the banks will not finance the deals. Larry |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 12:25:52 GMT -8
For instance, there are still a few Challenger Imports models for sale at a major LHS that were imported in 2002 and 2003 before the went out of business. They have been stocked for 10 years. How is that a good return on their money?? Larry I can only assume this is a very large store in Colorado? The store I'm thinking of does a lot of consignment, and some people have no realistic idea what their model is worth. |
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 13, 2012 15:43:48 GMT -8
For instance, there are still a few Challenger Imports models for sale at a major LHS that were imported in 2002 and 2003 before the went out of business. They have been stocked for 10 years. How is that a good return on their money?? Larry I can only assume this is a very large store in Colorado? The store I'm thinking of does a lot of consignment, and some people have no realistic idea what their model is worth. Jim No, The large store in Colorado, Caboose Hobbies does not have those in stock. I visit Caboose Hobbies at least once a year and have purchased several items from them this past year, but they were all used brass models that I believe were bargains. I have noticed that Caboose Hobbies does not get in many new brass models any longer, at least ones that I can spot unless they have reservations. If you check their list, they have all of the items on pre-order status, but I can verify most of the pre-order items have come and gone. Like the PSC NP A2, A3, A4 and A5 and almost all of the DVP Z8 classs for the NP have been in my stable now for about two years or more, but many of them show up as Pre-order on their page. I like visiting their store and I usually find something I can purchase and Don sends it home for me. Their inventory for consignment brass seems to be slow in selling but that is the brass market for the last two years or so. Larry |
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Post by curtmc on Sept 14, 2012 4:56:34 GMT -8
It's not a new thing for the hobby for businesses to go under and leave those who have made deposits or have store credits out in the cold... I have seen it happen many times over the last four decades and have lost money (fortunately small amounts) at least 3 times myself. First time was about 1983 when I was a teenager... However, it is one thing that is going to affect more people, and more often, with the current advance order fiasco the manufacturers have pushed for.
The old saying about the only sure things being death and taxes... Well the eventual death of this hobby is being quickened by the taxing of inventory...
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Post by johndmock on Sept 14, 2012 13:15:17 GMT -8
Clarification: My post above was not referring to those dealers who can get brand new models from the importers, but usually only buy enough to meet the minimum order requirements and fill the reservations--I was referring to those lesser known dealers who never even get the brand new product because the importers will not deal with them any longer (because in at least one instance the dealer screwed over the importer by failing to live up to a verbal agreement on a camelback deal, and undersold models thereby devaluing the models in the market and cutting the throats of other dealers all at the same time--thus angering just about everybody).
Also--some dealers have brass models in inventory for many years for a variety of reasons--sometimes it appears The Caboose tried to corner the market on particular models, and every once in awhile when there are quality control issues or for other reasons, they get stuck with models that then take years to sell--that is the gamble they take if they try to corner the market on a given model...However, it is done, and they aren't the only ones out there to do it. Just because some dealer still has models left that are 10 years old and yet brand new does not mean they didn't make money on them and aren't down to just the last couple of examples...If they bought a bunch on sale, they may have long since made a profit. I've been to shows where one dealer literally had a tall stack of the same model (during the 1990's)...the ones lingering today might be just the very last ones, or even somebody's consignments.
For example, Overland Models Reading G1sa's are commonly available more than 15 years after production--and they run great and look great! Just not everyone has a burning need to own one...that doesn't make them bad models at all. Many folks are still asking the retail price from back then for them--they can be had sometimes for less.
John
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Post by nw611 on Sept 14, 2012 14:01:38 GMT -8
Speaking of brass locomotives prices, I have two editions of The Brown Book, the second by R.A. Brown (1982) and the third by John Glaab (1994). Is there any subsequent edition or something equivalent issued in the years 2000? Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 14, 2012 14:53:54 GMT -8
Speaking of brass locomotives prices, I have two editions of The Brown Book, the second by R.A. Brown (1982) and the third by John Glaab (1994). Is there any subsequent edition or something equivalent issued in the years 2000? Ciao. Raffaele Ray Brown issued two books and the third was by John Glaab as you stated. I have all three since Ray was a friend of mine and operated at the Lockheed Model Railroad club which I was a member also at that time. After Ray passed on, John updated one edition of the book, but that was the end of the Brown Brass Book as far as I know. The only book available now that I know of is the one by Dan's Trains and it is on line if you sign up. I can go on line and get most of the latest brass that is listed and check prices on his on line page. He did offer a book also, but it seems to me the online version is more up to date since the book is not updated. Dan's Brass guide is interesting and has most of the standard issue and rare models on the pages. You have to register to have access to the guide. Prices in any of the book reflect what was going on at that time and some have changed or increased in value and some have decreased. I don't agree with all of Dan's prices, but his web site sells a lot of brass. The site has both new and used brass. The used brass makes up about 95% of the site since collections are purchased and resold. Larry www.brasstrains.com/home.php |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 14, 2012 15:57:33 GMT -8
If you can't find something to purchase at Caboose Hobbies you probably need a new hobby........:-)
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