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Post by Donnell Wells on Dec 15, 2016 19:03:33 GMT -8
Hi James,
Can you clarify what constitutes "being looked down on" by another modeler? Maybe I'm missing something...
Donnell
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Post by jlwii2000 on Dec 15, 2016 19:07:54 GMT -8
Hi James,
Can you clarify what constitutes "looking down on" another modeler? Maybe I'm missing something...
DonnellSure just in general some of my examples were statements such as "He only has EZ track, or he only has lower priced items..." "He has no expectations because he bought a _____" Also looking down on one's progress such as "Your scenery is horrible" instead of trying to help the modelers they bash the modeler. This is fairly widespread as I've seen comments such as those and much worse in forums, Facebook, YouTube and at clubs. The comment that drove this topic was (paraphrased) "You're not a modeler if you just do this or that." I felt that is looking down on someone versus letting them be. As I said before, they aren't robbing a title that requires some sort of certification or could kill someone if awarded in error such as M.D. or R.N. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 15, 2016 19:39:48 GMT -8
One of the major problems with the Athearn RTR SD40-2 is that its wheel base is incorrect. It is incorrect because on the prototype SD40-2 the front truck is tucked behind the front steps. Big choo-choo turns on curves we can't replicate. So, in an effort to be able to have someone run that SD40-2 on 18" radius curves the truck centers were fudged. But the body is pretty good on the Athearn RTR model. Plus, Athearn has upped the level of detail on their model. I own the Athearn model and the truck center for me isn't a deal breaker.
I like original Kato SD40-2's too. But the Kato body while not bad is severely dated. The Kato trucks are not as well detailed as the Athearn truck. The handrails on the Kato are very heavy. There is not specific detail and the paint is mediocre. But nothing runs like a Kato, that is when it runs. Kato took some tremendous hits to their brand when their N-scale inspired pick up system for the original SD40-2 models turned out to be a flop. At my friend's hobby shop we had many Kato SD40-2 which were DOA in their box. The lights lit....but the motor had no current. So I hard wired my Kato's and are Cannon & Co.-ing my Kato's. Tons of work, but it still a good model in my opinion. If I was a smart guy, like a Brian Banna, I'd graft Athearn truck frames onto the Kato! But "a man's got to know his limitations".......
The Intermountain SD40-2 is a no go for me. I had one of their SD40-2W's and has so disappointed in the model, I peddled it on e-Bay and got about half of what I had paid at the hobby shop. I REALLY WANTED the CN Expo 86 engine, since I'd seen it in PERSON as part of consist running through northwestern Minnesota. Looking at photos of the Intermountain SD40-2 on the net has me questioning some of the fit of the parts. Though e-Bay is hardly a barometer of success or failure concerning a models sales, the site is swamped with listings from dealers who have these priced at rock bottom prices. Now some people are happy with their Intermountain SD40-2, more power to you. I just won't be jumping on the band wagon until I feel the issues are satisfactory to MY taste.
The BLI SD40-2 is an unknown quantity to me. I had purchased one when the model first hit the shelves over a decade ago. The front drive shaft would constantly fall out between the truck and motor. The paint applied to BN version was so wrong, it begged to answer, if ANYONE at BLI looked at a photo of a BN SD40-2 before green lighting the production. Another model I'll steer clear of until I've had an opportunity to scrutinize it up close and personal.
The Scale Trains SD40-2 is very promising. But, those pre-production photos of the model surely did it no justice. Broken snow plow, leaning handrails, heavy part lines on the nose, and sloppy assembly just don't look good. How many threads has this forum, the old Atlas forum and others have about the sloppy work on some Athearn and other manufacturers models. The quality of the photos to my eyes was very good. Shot in natural sun light, the nice photos made the blemishes on the model even more pronounced. People have been burned on models so many times in the past, when they see even pre-production models with issues, some will play a wait and see approach to making a purchase. Does this hurt the manufacturer? Yes. Does calling them out about the concerns hurt the manufacturer, I'm sure it has some effect, but can you blame people for being concerned? I can't as I've pre-ordered models and had buyers remorse the minute I take my very expensive model out of the box and have see quality or other gaffs which I CAN NOT fix within reason.
I have a limited set of skills when it comes to body and fender work on ANY model. So, I do expect manufacturers in this day and age to keep fit and finish of the parts to a very high standard. Mold lines are something you expect on an Athearn blue box locomotive from 1984, not a $300 model of 2016.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Dec 15, 2016 21:07:15 GMT -8
Bobby, What exactly do you think is double talk in my above post? You re-posted everything I wrote, so I'm not exactly sure. In case I wasn't clear enough, there's a way to be critical without being offensive. Manufacturers will listen if one is not a jerk to them. They may not agree to change anything, but they will listen. A scathing, ranting e-mail will most likely get put in the round file and ignored. Riogrande, Well, you kinda said it.  If you really want to go old school, there were people who thought you weren't really a modeler unless you scratchbuilt models from real materials like metal or wood. That plastic stuff was cheap kid's stuff and not worthy for a real modeler to use. That attitude was expressed in Letters to the Editor in old MR's back in the 1940's and 1950's. Of course, back then MR used to run articles on how to cast your own smokebox front in pot metal, so it's all relative. |
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Post by Brakie on Dec 16, 2016 4:01:13 GMT -8
Jim,(GN-W) Every one of those SD40-2s you mention is popular with the majority of the modelers and I would guess 90% doesn't care about their short comings and I base that on my interaction with modelers including members of various forums and shoot the majority wouldn't know a EMD SD80MAC from a GE ES44-C AC.
And for what its worth those RTR BB engines is still very popular in 2016 since they are still a bargain and ten steps above Bachmann and a step below Atlas Trainman because of the Trainman's superior drive.
About that broken plow..I'm sure that will be address on the production run models.
If I was to buy another locomotive after ST's SD40-2 I would go Atlas. My old Atlas/Roco Alco S4s is still going strong as is my Atlas/Kato engines and Atlas Classics and that says several tons about Atlas quality.Even my newest SCL S2 is a smooth runner and a good looker. My old Athearn BB and my lone Kato GP35 keeps on running.
Sure,they're not up to today's so called standards but, given the issues I had with my Genesis GP9 and the other reported issues on this and other forums I've read about I'm not sure I'm thrilled with today's standards especially if Genesis locomotives is supposedly the "gold standard" as many claim..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 6:12:25 GMT -8
Very well said! Let's not rip people for buying a (more ordinary) SD40-2 and actually liking it, for example. Let's not rip people who criticize an SD40-2 and point out its flaws and state why they wouldn't purchase that particular model. The sword cuts both ways. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What happens on these forums is people start to shout out the dissenting opinion. This is when the Donny Brook breaks out and feelings get hurt. This nearly always leads to good quality people jumping ship. There seems to be this knee jerk reaction on these forums for people to pitch some snarky remark into the mix and the fight is on. We are all guilty of living in anonymity behind a keyboard. Should you put all of us in the same room, I'd wager that decorum would be the norm. Though I've seen petty little disagreements explode at train shows and meets. Nobody likes everybody, but we could try a little bit harder to just get along and accept that some don't agree with us on everything. Well, I don't believe I ripped anybody for saying they wouldn't buy a given model. However, imo some of those "I'm not buying it" posts crossed some lines ... they can do a lot of damage in a short period of time.
Even for example a post I made on another forum about excessive gear noise in a particular BLI steamer had the unintended result of that engine being labeled "a dog" such that some dealers cannot sell the few that are left and the perceived market value of that engine has definitely dropped. BLI is sold out, but there are dealers that are "stuck" with them, and I do feel kinda badly about that. Also, after much running, mine runs well but is still very noisy (metal gears, not plastic and not cracked). Dealers have repeated back to me what (they did not know it was me) was posted online...so the moral of the story is more people read these forums than we might sometimes think and it's easy to do real damage with our words.
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Dec 16, 2016 9:02:32 GMT -8
Back to the topic at hand...and staying positive and uplifting.
There are so many incredible products available in HO scale and the industry deserves a pat on the back every now and then instead of all of the criticisms and complaints.
I am not even mentioning locomotives and rolling stock but will say the number of excellent, accurate models that can be purchased is staggering.
From my perspective as an HO modeler who thoroughly enjoys assembling, painting and weathering buildings, bridges and construction vehicles, there are so many highly-detailed plastic kits available these days ( for all eras ) that no one should find fault...except there are too many to choose from!
The new Cornerstone Engineered Bridge System offers several different styles of bridges, piers and abutments that will work on any layout. The latest double-track Arched Pratt curved truss bridge, the 109' Pratt truss bridge plus 90' deck and thru girder bridges have been designed into my latest layout. The kits are highly-detailed and very easy to build
Several Cornerstone industries, farm structures, city buildings and passenger depots also have prominent places on the new layout.
Kibri and Faller also make excellent bridge kits as well as modern passenger depot, walkways and platforms and I have several of those still to assemble.
The Kibri construction vehicle kits, mainly cranes, mining excavators, front end loaders, superdozers and heavy-haul dump trucks are perfect for diorama sections of a layout such as coal mines, power plants or industries.
Top that off with outstanding turnouts and track from Shinohara, Peco and Atlas and you can build your dream layout.
An HO modeler couldn't ask for more.
One of the biggest problems I see on this HO forum is the continued criticism of manufacturers and of other members who have different viewpoints or concerns.
All of the positive aspects of the scale need to be reinforced on a daily basis to balance out the constant negativity.
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Post by jbilbrey on Dec 16, 2016 20:05:17 GMT -8
IMHO, the hobby certainly means different things to different people. We all get different levels of enjoyment out of different aspects. A perfect example of this would be my father and me. My father decided it was time for him and me to graduate from "train sets" to "model railroading" nearly 30 years ago. This was right before Athearn released their "Blue Box" GP38-2, so our "best" locomotives when we joined a local club was a powered-dummy set of GP35's and a Rivarossi Cab-Forward [he found it at a flea market for $10 because "it would not run"]. Fast forward 30 years, and you probably could not find two more polar opposite people who enjoy this hobby. He will casually throw a $100 locomotive in the box with a $5 Life-Like caboose and wonder why the handrails keep getting messed up, and he didn't understand the fuss when he returned a set of GEVO's to me after getting the decoders programed and one was missing the plow. Where I love attending clinics at RPM's, he is more at home digging through the bargain bins at a GATS-type event. My library collection easily outnumbers his on a 10:1 basis. He is fine with watching trains run in a circle where I prefer to switch cars in and out sidings.
The thing is that I am sure there are modelers out there that think the hours I spend on a car or locomotive is wasted when one can simply take the item out of the packaging and run it. Meanwhile, I try not to look at the $50 wasted at buying a R-T-R car when kits used to be available for $10. Both sides at times forget the primary purpose of the hobby. It isn't to build "X car" or "Y locomotive". It isn't which locomotive can pull more out of the box. And, it isn't what is the correct shade of black paint. Instead, the primary purpose of the hobby is to offer a way of relaxing and unwinding.
Tying back to other discussions, some modelers are going be perfectly happy with a Bachmann SD40-2 while others cannot wait for the Scale Trains SD40-2 so they can physically tear it apart and modify it to where it exactly matches the prototype. The rest of us will be happy somewhere in between. But in the end, we will all be model railroaders in our own ways.
James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Dec 17, 2016 13:54:34 GMT -8
I'm a stubborn type, I was initially told I lacked the skills necessary to be a "model railroader". I only built plastic models, (and not well), and real model railroaders built wood and metal kits or scratch built. That was in 1961, so I guess I'm still faking it. They also told me I would never make it as a railroader, but I managed to retire after 42 years...Moral of story, What do they know?
rail modeltroy14 is right. There is no reason not to be positive and uplifting. Back in the day there was no really good way to do what is taking shape in my basement. Now, I can actually build a reasonable facsimile of the rail line I rail fanned growing up. On the other hand, I do appreciate factual reviews of new model releases. Saves money and prevents disappointment.
Brakie, Atlas is still my go to locomotive supplier, Bowser (for Baldwins), a close second.
I accumulate locos and cars, I am building a layout, build kits (cars and structures), dabble in DCC and electronics, and have an opinion to voice. Guess that qualifies me as a model railroader.
Crabby Joe
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 6:56:00 GMT -8
tldr;
A modeller HO or otherwise is anyone who purchases a "toy" replica of a real railroad or other item with his or her own money. Then enjoys it however they want. Those of you who want to tell me otherwise can go piss up a rope. Anyone that tells someone else how to enjoy their hobby is a killjoy and enjoys belittling others. In my opinion that person should get professional help. If you don't think your words discourage young modellers or adults just getting into the hobby you are dead wrong. If I see the worst looking piece of garbage ever assembled by a person I tell them thats a really good job. In their eyes it looks exactly the same as a Lance Mendenheim or Pele Soeburg and who are you to tell them different. If they ask for you honest opinion then maybe you can give them some pointers on how to improve but until that time shut up. It's also my experience that the majority of the critics can barely glue two pieces of plastic together without leaving a fingerprint, although they can surely be critical of another persons work. Most of you really need to chill the @#%$ out and realize it isn't really your opinion anyone wants so keep it to yourself. If you want to give something, give encouragement you might just make that persons day. To sit behind your keyboards and say what is or isn't a modeller is really a waste of your time, maybe you should try modelling yourself, it's a fun hobby.
Im out!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 9:50:16 GMT -8
tldr; A modeller HO or otherwise is anyone who purchases a "toy" replica of a real railroad or other item with his or her own money. Then enjoys it however they want. Those of you who want to tell me otherwise can go piss up a rope. Anyone that tells someone else how to enjoy their hobby is a killjoy and enjoys belittling others. In my opinion that person should get professional help. If you don't think your words discourage young modellers or adults just getting into the hobby you are dead wrong. If I see the worst looking piece of garbage ever assembled by a person I tell them thats a really good job. In their eyes it looks exactly the same as a Lance Mendenheim or Pele Soeburg and who are you to tell them different. If they ask for you honest opinion then maybe you can give them some pointers on how to improve but until that time shut up. It's also my experience that the majority of the critics can barely glue two pieces of plastic together without leaving a fingerprint, although they can surely be critical of another persons work. Most of you really need to chill the @#%$ out and realize it isn't really your opinion anyone wants so keep it to yourself. If you want to give something, give encouragement you might just make that persons day. To sit behind your keyboards and say what is or isn't a modeller is really a waste of your time, maybe you should try modelling yourself, it's a fun hobby. Im out! So much wrong with that. The first sentence is meaningless. "Other item"? Like a pork chop? And "...with his or her own money."- So if the item is a gift or a prize, it doesn't count? Words mean things. "It's also my experience that the majority of the critics can barely glue two pieces of plastic together without leaving a fingerprint, although they can surely be critical of another persons work." That's a pretty critical statement. "Most of you really need to chill the @#%$ out and realize it isn't really your opinion anyone wants so keep it to yourself." But your opinion is exempt? Etc... And the correct spelling is "modeler", "Pelle", "Søeburg", and "Mindheim". |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 19:30:45 GMT -8
tldr; A modeller HO or otherwise is anyone who purchases a "toy" replica of a real railroad or other item with his or her own money. Then enjoys it however they want. Those of you who want to tell me otherwise can go piss up a rope. Anyone that tells someone else how to enjoy their hobby is a killjoy and enjoys belittling others. In my opinion that person should get professional help. If you don't think your words discourage young modellers or adults just getting into the hobby you are dead wrong. If I see the worst looking piece of garbage ever assembled by a person I tell them thats a really good job. In their eyes it looks exactly the same as a Lance Mendenheim or Pele Soeburg and who are you to tell them different. If they ask for you honest opinion then maybe you can give them some pointers on how to improve but until that time shut up. It's also my experience that the majority of the critics can barely glue two pieces of plastic together without leaving a fingerprint, although they can surely be critical of another persons work. Most of you really need to chill the @#%$ out and realize it isn't really your opinion anyone wants so keep it to yourself. If you want to give something, give encouragement you might just make that persons day. To sit behind your keyboards and say what is or isn't a modeller is really a waste of your time, maybe you should try modelling yourself, it's a fun hobby. Im out! So much wrong with that. The first sentence is meaningless. "Other item"? Like a pork chop? And "...with his or her own money."- So if the item is a gift or a prize, it doesn't count? Words mean things. "It's also my experience that the majority of the critics can barely glue two pieces of plastic together without leaving a fingerprint, although they can surely be critical of another persons work." That's a pretty critical statement. "Most of you really need to chill the @#%$ out and realize it isn't really your opinion anyone wants so keep it to yourself." But your opinion is exempt? Etc... And the correct spelling is "modeler", "Pelle", "Søeburg", and "Mindheim". So you are that person. You are correct words do have meaning so does context. So if you are unsure what that means let me help you. We are talking about modeling, so perhaps in the context of what we were speaking about (and yes I know we aren't really talking) model related items is what is referenced. As far as it being a gift or prize, again context, does that question even apply or is it even necessary? Maybe from a six year old "what if, what if, well what if". My critical statement stands until you can prove otherwise. As far as the opinion, again context related to the topic at hand. I am beginning to see the pattern, comprehension of context is where you seem to need help. Don't really care if I misspelled a word. If it somehow makes you feel superior good for you, I would however suggest therapy. |
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Post by SD90 on Dec 18, 2016 23:49:32 GMT -8
I like model trains!
:-)
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Post by bnsf971 on Dec 19, 2016 2:30:35 GMT -8
Okay, here's the deal:
It's my stuff, do do with or not as I please, and it's up to me to call it what I want. If I want to call a $2000 brass steam engine a toy train, that's what it is to me. If I choose to call a $5 Tyco GP20 a model train, again, it's mine, and I will call it what I want to. If I want to tell people I play with toy trains, I will, and if I choose to call myself a model railroader, I will. Period.
If I choose to model a railroad by scratchbuilding everything in sight, that's how I am modeling. If I choose to model a train by removing some cars from their boxes, and placing them on the track, that is how I am modeling.
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Post by cf7 on Dec 19, 2016 5:12:26 GMT -8
steeltiger1,
What ruffled your feathers? To quote you from your post...maybe you "need to chill the @#%$ out".
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Post by scl1234 on Dec 19, 2016 10:52:13 GMT -8
... If you don't think your words discourage young modellers or adults just getting into the hobby you are dead wrong. Well, I'd say that if words are all it takes to discourage someone as opposed to: money, space, time, money, and...(did I mention $$$), then this discouraged person probably wouldn't remain in the hobby for very long; if, hypothetically, they were ever truly encouraged with it initially. |
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Post by rmcroadster on Dec 19, 2016 12:19:19 GMT -8
All I know about the topic is that they are my toy trains, and if I want to play with them wrong I will regardless. So there! :-)
Matthew
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Dec 19, 2016 14:06:58 GMT -8
... If you don't think your words discourage young modellers or adults just getting into the hobby you are dead wrong. Well, I'd say that if words are all it takes to discourage someone as opposed to: money, space, time, money, and...(did I mention $$$), then this discouraged person probably wouldn't remain in the hobby for very long; if, hypothetically, they were ever truly encouraged with it initially. Not for nothing, but everyone isn't as stubborn as I am. Some people are very much affected by other's comments, good or bad. This model railroad hobby is broad and diverse. The hobby attracts all sort of people from all backgrounds and mind sets. Unkind words do discourage, especially newbies, who have not as yet learned the secret handshake, or who the trolls are. This has been a civil discussion so far, no need for ruffled feathers. |
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Post by Brakie on Dec 19, 2016 14:46:15 GMT -8
Guys, Allow me to add this.. We have no idea who is sitting behind a keyboard and that can range between a "expert" keyboard modeler with little or no real modeling skills and has nothing more then a Bachmann train set with E-Z track(nothing wrong about that-its his hobby) but, has tons of locomotive and freight car books to a handicap modeler that is doing his best.
Some may snicker when I mention the fact I still like switching cars with either my BB GP7 or GP35. For me its a throw back to the old school hobby when things was fairly simple both in life and the hobby.
In the end its all the same...Men, women and kids from of all walks of life and income brackets enjoying model trains as a hobby regardless if their models is mostly train set, Athearn BB or the latest highly detail cars and locomotives.
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Dec 19, 2016 14:54:07 GMT -8
Larry:
Spoken like a true gentlemen and ambassador for the HO side of the hobby!
We need more like you.
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Post by Gary P on Dec 20, 2016 6:26:52 GMT -8
Larry: Spoken like a true gentlemen and ambassador for the HO side of the hobby! We need more like you. Agree. We all enjoy things in our own ways. Some are better than others at things, but we all share something..... our love for trains! |
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Post by milgentrains on Dec 20, 2016 14:45:01 GMT -8
I'm just as excited waiting foe 3 BB freight car kits in the mail as I was waiting for some of the high end cars that I've bought. You can bet when I'm able to start a layout next year I'm going to fire up my BB GP-7.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 7:18:05 GMT -8
steeltiger1, What ruffled your feathers? To quote you from your post...maybe you "need to chill the @#%$ out". Yep you're right I do. Every time I read one of these topics it's the same "experts" espousing their view on what is, or what isn't this or that. And quite frankly I quit coming here very often because of it. Don't get me wrong there are some good people here. But if you want to be critical of how others enjoy their hobby it gets me fired up. Don't tell someone they are not a modeler because all they have is this or that, or don't do this or that. I'm out. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 21, 2016 11:56:03 GMT -8
I can't fully get behind the idea of calling everybody that has HO trains a "modeler". I'll give an example.
In 1965 when I was five years old, my parents gave me a chrome plated Tyco-Mantua Santa Fe passenger set and freight equipment made up of Tyco, AHM, Revell, Varney and maybe others. Straight out of an Atlas track plan book for sectional track my father nailed down the track on a 4'x8' sheet of plywood painted green, which was set up in a spare bedroom. I had double transformer and ran that Santa Fe passenger train for hours upon hours. The Tyco GP20 was nearly always at Harter's Hobby House in Belleville, Illinois getting fixed. Was I a "model railroader"? I surely don't consider myself a "modeler". To me I was a train nut running HO scale equipment. I got great joy out of running that chrome passenger train in circles. Used to fall asleep standing up, while running that passenger train! But I didn't do anything, I didn't build anything.
Our family moved a year and half latter. Again, good old Dad, put together a layout from the Atlas plan book. This time it had the "very realistic" Atlas bridge and pier system! Lionel in HO scale. Up and over and the train would derail and fall down or collapse due to the sharp curves and those good old talgo trucks. So I ran on the loop that didn't go up and over. This layout even featured sidings. Never used them. Dad couldn't figure out why I didn't try to run things more "realistically" but I just wanted to see the train go 'round and 'round. I surely didn't do any building, but loved trains and watching them run.
In 1976, I went to the National Train show, when the NMRA had its national convention in Chicago. I was blown away at the "realism" of the models. I thought Model Railroad magazine was the "holy grail". I then got my first Athearn locomotive, an FP45 in Santa Fe. The Life-Like grass mat under the unballasted cork roadbed and Atlas brass snap track now wasn't good enough. I wanted to have a layout and rolling stock like that featured in Model Railroader. I even had a subscription to MR. I became an NMRA member in 1978. I wanted realism. I started to add small details to my Athearn diesels, like MU signal hoses, grab irons, painted the handrails, etc. I built a layout, using flex-track!!! In nickel-silver no less. I began to paint and decal. Now, I considered myself to be a model railroader, as I wanted to duplicate the prototype. I began looking at photos in Trains magazine and other publications. I was striving for accuracy or as best I could with limited budget and talent.
Over the years, I've grown as a model builder. I'm still not very good. But I try. Now, I consider myself a modeler for the most part, as I'm never happy with anything out of the box. If I do take something out of the box, its because it is something that I can't modify. Building bench work has more to do with one's carpentry skills than modeling. My abilities as a carpenter are severely limited, bless you that can cut wood straight. Everything after in the layout building process does require modeling skills.
To me the hobby is a combination of modeling or building and take it out of the box or enthusiast activity. For those that want a fleet in as short of time as possible....great! For those that sweat every little detail.....great! The one constant is it is the enjoyment of trains in HO scale.
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If you really want to go old school, there were people who thought you weren't really a modeler unless you scratchbuilt models from real materials like metal or wood. That plastic stuff was cheap kid's stuff and not worthy for a real modeler to use. That attitude was expressed in Letters to the Editor in old MR's back in the 1940's and 1950's. Of course, back then MR used to run articles on how to cast your own smokebox front in pot metal, so it's all relative.
