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Post by jimnorton on Sept 17, 2012 21:21:11 GMT -8
When a model boxcar is released in a repaint scheme the roof is clean and galvanized. Is this the case in the real world?
It would seem that when a well worn prototype Chessie boxcar was painted into CSX the roof would remain untouched (i.e. remain rusty).
Yet, in the model world that roof would be shiny silver. Is that correct? When a boxcar is painted is the roof sand blasted to return the galvanized look? Otherwise these models of nice new repaints should have rusty roofs. Input appreciated.
Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL
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Post by shoofly on Sept 17, 2012 23:15:18 GMT -8
Depends, the best answer provided. It varies from railroad to railroad, boxcar to boxcar and rebuild program. I've seen patched cars with a brand new roof and sealant applied. I've seen the entire car repainted, when it got new paint the shop painted the roof same as the sides. Often its tough to get roof shots but thats the only way to really get an idea of what has been done or has yet to be done.
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Post by drolsen on Sept 18, 2012 1:06:59 GMT -8
It would seem that when a well worn prototype Chessie boxcar was painted into CSX the roof would remain untouched (i.e. remain rusty). Jim - In the '90s, at least, CSX seemed to be making an effort to repaint the entire car, including the roof, but many of those weathered quickly, with the paint peeling and fading. Here are a bunch of examples (I like to shoot high angle shots to get a "layout view"): CSXT 130091 (Apr 2010) - significant roof peeling: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2021085CSXT 130597 (Sep 2004) - faded, some peeling: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=305744CSXT 158764 (April 2010) - faded, end panels bare (maybe replacements?): drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2021086CSXT 160672 (Oct 2002) - blue roof in good shape: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2124758CSXT 161129 (Apr 2010) - faded, significant roof peeling: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2021088CSXT 166551 (Jul 2003) - fade but in good shape: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=437893CSXT 171008 (Oct 2002) - some peeling (also wet from rain): drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2124708I'm basically working off the assumption that CSX painted the roof the same color as the body (blue) in most cases, so I'll add the appropriate amount of weathering based on how recently I think the car was repainted. However, I have found examples of apparently bare, weathered roofs also, so I'll include a few of those, but they seem to be less common. I think you definitely need to look at the railroad you're modeling for examples. Hope that helps, Dave |
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Post by dti406 on Sept 18, 2012 4:08:37 GMT -8
When the NYC rebuilt some 40' Boxcars into 50' Boxcars in the 1960's for the P&LE, they repainted the old roof with PC Green but left the new panels as galvanized.  This is a car I did using a 50' Boxcar and a few additions to look like a stretched 40' boxcar. There is a picture of a string of these cars on the P&LE Yahoo Group. Rick J |
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Post by jimnorton on Sept 18, 2012 21:05:38 GMT -8
Thanks everyone! I typically paint the roof the body color or a bit rusty with body color over spray. Just got to wondering why the manufacturers always do a shiny silver roof on a repaint.
Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL
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Post by drolsen on Sept 18, 2012 22:49:07 GMT -8
Just got to wondering why the manufacturers always do a shiny silver roof on a repaint. Jim - Intermountain has an unfortunate history of not using very accurate colors on many of their models, but they're pretty good about painting the roofs correctly. Here's a photo of their latest CSX PS 5277 release (the photo is from M.B. Klein's website because the IMRC page shows a photo of a previous run): a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/ztna9.tft5b/v/vspfiles/photos/IMR-47511-13-2.jpg?1336464151I discussed this release with them and was able to convince them to darken the blue a little more than previous runs as well as removing the small tackboard to the left of the door and moving the large one one panel over to better match the prototype. They were very receptive to my input, which I really appreciated. Box car models used to just come painted in one solid color, or if you were lucky, maybe with different colored ends to match a particular prototype. At some point in the '90s, manufacturers started producing models with a metallic colored roof, which was more exciting for modelers. Finally, in the last '90s (I think), manufacturers developed the method for painting the roof a separate color with the overspray along the edges. That gave the models an extra "flare," and it seems like they wanted to use the technique on all their boxcars from that point on. It's gotten to where a lot of models are painted that way even if the prototype wasn't. When Athearn released their most recent run of RTR 60' CSX box cars (the former Genesis car), they included heavy overspray around the edges of the roof. I found a number of photos that showed that there was either no overspray or the roof was painted solid blue, but I think they just like applying that technique to new models. Dave |
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Post by Chris vanderHeide on Sept 19, 2012 10:46:29 GMT -8
It really depends.
Sometimes railroads repaint the whole roof.
Sometimes they don't. When they don't, they don't bother masking the roof either, so you get usually get some overspray. The galvanized roof is basically just left as-is, although seams might be covered in sealer.
So yes, it'll either be fully repainted or still rusty with possibly some overspray on the sides.
The model manufacturers though don't make mass-produced cars with weathering. And I don't blame them - weathering is not something that can really be mass-produced. Athearn at one point offered some of their 60' boxcars factory weathered, but it was nothing more than a spray-can mist of "generic weathering colour" along the bottom half of the car. Quick, easily done in 10sec by a guy with a spray can, but not very convincing. And doing rusty roofs properly is a bit more involved.
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Post by johndmock on Sept 19, 2012 20:57:27 GMT -8
I think it is important to remember the following. This is how the manufacturers, distributors, and dealers, generally speaking (with limited exceptions), see things:
"Most" of the actual buyers--not the few diehards on internet train forums--want freight cars to appear basically "brand new", though perhaps satin to flat in finish.
"Most" of the buyers do not actually care if a given paint scheme is a factory new paint scheme or if it is a repaint. They buy because they like it, and don't read the fine print. (I'm the only one of my friends who actually does read everything with a magnifying glass).
"Most" buyers will tolerate the overspray of body side color onto the galvanized roof of boxcars as the various manufacturers have been doing quite well in recent years.
Also, as Kadee is well aware, a few railroads chose to paint newly galvanized boxcar roofs, and more commonly, applied a black tar substance known as "car cement" (in the era prior to widespread galvanizing) that also was rust prohibitive.
Athearn tried offering factory weathered cars. I actually bought several and thought, with perhaps a few exceptions, they did a really nice, though quick, weathering job on them. However, for the dealers and on Ebay, they just did not sell quickly. Sure--when discounted to very low prices--they eventually sold and you can't find some of them now, but at the time they didn't sell well and I heard about that from multiple dealers.
I imagine any kind of "weathered" roof--no matter how nicely done--would meet with similar sales results.
But that is only my opinion...
John
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Post by drolsen on Sept 19, 2012 22:07:00 GMT -8
"Most" buyers will tolerate the overspray of body side color onto the galvanized roof of boxcars as the various manufacturers have been doing quite well in recent years. My point was that, in my opinion, most modelers actually prefer the galvanized roof with the overspray, because it looks more interesting and "neat," even if it's not correct for the prototype. I totally get that - that was just my answer to the original question about why manufacturers put clean, galvanized roofs on box car models. It just looks better. I've heard from a number of sources that Athearn offered the factory weathered cars in an attempt to sell Genesis models that weren't moving out of the warehouse. In the beginning of the "Genesis Era," they significantly overproduced their first few runs, especially of the 60' box cars, and they were left with a lot sitting on the shelves. I think they were happy with selling any additional ones that they could get rid of, but I'd agree that the weathered ones probably didn't sell as well as they had hoped. Blackstone Models offers each of their beautiful HOn3 freight cars in both a standard and weathered version. The weathered cars look really good to me. I think part of it is that they fade the overall body color of the cars before apply dirt / grime, which I'm not sure that Athearn did. I'd be curious to know how well the weathered Blackstone cars are selling. They aren't cheap - $5-8 more than the standard car price (which is already in the $55-67 range). They look fantastic though - almost makes me want to start a little HOn3 on the side... Dave |
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Post by johndmock on Sept 20, 2012 6:01:59 GMT -8
I think you are correct--that many of the weathered cars were slow moving cars. Also included were the Santa Fe 50' reefers--a very correct Santa Fe car, but most of the schemes offered by Athearn were incorrect paint schemes--and application of weathering to them did not help them sell, because there were folks out there who knew most of the paint schemes were just plain wrong--incorrect passenger train slogans never worn on those 100 prototype cars.
Athearn also offered heavily weathered Big Boys--which did appear to sell well, though some felt the smokebox was far too black and complained accordingly. Others like MTH have offered weathered N&W 4-8-4's--in general they just don't sell as well as a non-weathered model. Sure--some folks would like the weathered versions--but upon resale, most subsequent buyers are just not looking for that.
I don't know about sandblasting galvanized roofs? I've seen plenty of freshly painted Pan Am boxcars where it appears the roof was just left alone, with blue overspray onto the top and that's it. At the time they were painted they looked pretty good with pretty intact galvanizing, but 5 years or so later the roof starts looking rusty.
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Post by dti406 on Sept 20, 2012 7:14:42 GMT -8
Not so much on repainted cars although rebuilds might be included. Some builders like Evans & FGE were very careful and masked the roofs allowing no overspray. I did not know this and when I painted my Evans PC X72 Boxcars I oversprayed the roof when I should have not done so. I will be repainting those roofs in the near future.
FMC was one that did not mask roofs and allowed the overspray to go over the roof. I am not sure about other builders.
Rick J
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