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Post by jaygee on Feb 28, 2017 11:18:32 GMT -8
Not counting stuff that hasn't been made yet... do we have a definitive Alco RS3 model out there?? Something that looks as good as the old Hobby town die cast job. What says the hive mind  Thanks |
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Post by theengineshed on Feb 28, 2017 11:50:58 GMT -8
No, wait for Bowser....
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 28, 2017 12:06:30 GMT -8
The best looking one is the Athearn RTR model (paint, detailing, etc.) but there are some slight issues with dimensions and the drive is average. The most accurate one dimensionally is still the diecast Hobbytown, but the details are lacking (to be kind), the paint is non-existent and the drive needs special attention (and doesn't exist on the plastic version). The best running one is the Atlas, but the details are average (not road specific except for the stack), but the dimensions are off. The old Stewart model had a lousy drive, no detailing, awful paint, and had terrible dimensional problems.
The Bowser model should be the answer, but only for Phase II and III RS-3's. I talked with Lee English at the Springfield show, and he said he might do Phase Ib's after he does everything else first as he doesn't want to step on Athearn or Atlas' toes. But reading between the lines, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Phase Ib's from Bowser.
IMHO, the "best" Phase Ib RS-3 is and will be the Athearn for the foreseeable future.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 12:17:34 GMT -8
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 28, 2017 12:22:18 GMT -8
Oh, yeah, I forgot about the Bachmann one. Let's see... The drive is average, the detailing is generic (and lacking), the paint is good, and the dimensions are off (and the trucks are awful).
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Post by Brakie on Feb 28, 2017 12:22:26 GMT -8
Not counting stuff that hasn't been made yet... do we have a definitive Alco RS3 model out there?? Something that looks as good as the old Hobby town die cast job. What says the hive mind Thanks Out of the current RS3 I decided the Atlas/Kato works for me as would the newer Atlas China RS3. With that said if I was in the market for a RS3 I might be tempted to wait and look at the Bowser when it hits the market but, seeing they are still taking preorders and the actual release may be several months or one or two years away. Seeing I'm 69 years old and not in the best of health the Atlas China RS3 may be the better solution then playing the long waiting game. A bird (engine?) in hand thing I suppose.. |
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Post by steveturner on Feb 28, 2017 12:39:29 GMT -8
Measurements and details aside. You will never find a better runner than the Atlas/Kato. Smooth as silk and still 20 years young. I second the Atlas classic ...........still lurking on the shelf waiting for the Atlas/Kato to retire. Steve
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Post by roadkill on Feb 28, 2017 13:40:50 GMT -8
The best looking one is the Athearn RTR model (paint, detailing, etc.) but there are some slight issues with dimensions and the drive is average. The most accurate one dimensionally is still the diecast Hobbytown, but the details are lacking (to be kind), the paint is non-existent and the drive needs special attention (and doesn't exist on the plastic version). The best running one is the Atlas, but the details are average (not road specific except for the stack), but the dimensions are off. The old Stewart model had a lousy drive, no detailing, awful paint, and had terrible dimensional problems. The Bowser model should be the answer, but only for Phase II and III RS-3's. I talked with Lee English at the Springfield show, and he said he might do Phase Ib's after he does everything else first as he doesn't want to step on Athearn or Atlas' toes. But reading between the lines, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Phase Ib's from Bowser. IMHO, the "best" Phase Ib RS-3 is and will be the Athearn for the foreseeable future. I can't get past the grossly misshapen cab side windows on the MDC/Athearn shell, they just stand out so badly. |
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Post by Judge Doom on Feb 28, 2017 13:42:52 GMT -8
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Post by shinobi on Feb 28, 2017 14:09:18 GMT -8
I studied this matter extensively over on the diesel detailer forums. I eventually came to the conclusion that the Athearn RS3 was the best, with the Atlas/Kato model coming in close second. The Atlas shell has some issues, the cab roof profile is too round, and the long hood is about a scale foot too short. The Athearn shell is very accurate, but the cab side windows are a little off (placed too low down, if I recall), which is actually an easy fix if you're handy with a craft knife and styrene sheet (and an airbrush to repaint).
If the Athearn drive is an issue, I'd recommend remotoring or simply swapping the body onto an Atlas drive.
Now if you want the "perfect" RS3, supposedly you should just wait for the Bowser model. However at $200 for DC and $300 for DCC and sound, this is going to be out of budget for a lot of people. At least it will be ESU Loksound, so you're getting the best sound in the industry.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 14:11:04 GMT -8
The best looking one is the Athearn RTR model (paint, detailing, etc.) but there are some slight issues with dimensions and the drive is average. The most accurate one dimensionally is still the diecast Hobbytown, but the details are lacking (to be kind), the paint is non-existent and the drive needs special attention (and doesn't exist on the plastic version). The best running one is the Atlas, but the details are average (not road specific except for the stack), but the dimensions are off. The old Stewart model had a lousy drive, no detailing, awful paint, and had terrible dimensional problems. IMHO, the "best" Phase Ib RS-3 is and will be the Athearn for the foreseeable future. So what are all these dimensional inaccuracies you speak of. I see this every now and then but no one puts out any specific details of them. I have mostly Atlas yellow box and a couple of the MDC ones. I know the cab windows are too large on the MDC one, they definately stick out like a sore thumb. Please, inquiring minds would like to know. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 28, 2017 14:20:23 GMT -8
The best looking one is the Athearn RTR model (paint, detailing, etc.) but there are some slight issues with dimensions and the drive is average. The most accurate one dimensionally is still the diecast Hobbytown, but the details are lacking (to be kind), the paint is non-existent and the drive needs special attention (and doesn't exist on the plastic version). The best running one is the Atlas, but the details are average (not road specific except for the stack), but the dimensions are off. The old Stewart model had a lousy drive, no detailing, awful paint, and had terrible dimensional problems. IMHO, the "best" Phase Ib RS-3 is and will be the Athearn for the foreseeable future. So what are all these dimensional inaccuracies you speak of. I see this every now and then but no one puts out any specific details of them. I have mostly Atlas yellow box and a couple of the MDC ones. I know the cab windows are too large on the MDC one, they definately stick out like a sore thumb. Please, inquiring minds would like to know. See post above yours. |
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Post by shinobi on Feb 28, 2017 15:14:01 GMT -8
So what are all these dimensional inaccuracies you speak of. I see this every now and then but no one puts out any specific details of them. I have mostly Atlas yellow box and a couple of the MDC ones. I know the cab windows are too large on the MDC one, they definately stick out like a sore thumb. Please, inquiring minds would like to know. I agree that it's really annoying when people talk about dimensional inaccuracy without qualifying that statement any further. It's one of the reasons why I ALWAYS include the details when I discuss these matters, because I'm one of the many people who use also forums like this one to research purchases. What is really annoying is when you find people regurgitating erroneous information. For example when I was researching the Atlas GP7 and I found someone saying that the wheelbase is too short. Turns out that they were actually getting it confused with the old Atlas RS11 which re-used the Kato RS3 drive. I guess I can see how the RS11 and GP7 are similar, but the point is that people will offer advice when in reality they aren't 100% on the facts themselves. To further clarify on the Athearn RS3, the cab side windows are basically the only real mistake on the shell. Now that I look at it, basically the real RS3 has side windows that are horizontally rectangular, but the Athearn models are closer to vertically rectangular. The entire window is placed too low down on the side of the cab, so the easiest way to fix it is to fill in the lower portion of the window with styrene, and then widen the window vertically and horizontally. Technically the cab center windows aren't quite perfect either, but the variance is so small it's almost not worth mentioning; they're a fraction too high, but even if you look at the model and compare with photos of the real thing it's effectively impossible to tell. One of the reasons why it's so hard to tell is because Athearn (or should I say, MDC) were one of the few manufacturers to ever actually angle the windows correctly, mainly because they got both the roof curve AND hood curve correct. |
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Post by Brakie on Feb 28, 2017 15:30:35 GMT -8
Shinobi, Good stuff! I knew the truck spacing was off on the Atlas/Kato RS11 but,I didn't know Atlas used the Kato RS-3 drive.
I have both Atlas/Kato SCL RS11s that gap between the trucks and steps kinda bugs me at times. I don't think LL P2K made SCL RS11s.
Now you know why I hang out here.
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Post by ironrails on Feb 28, 2017 16:41:30 GMT -8
Hello: Shinobi: In one of your earlier posts you state the Atlas cab has too round a roof, but it actually flattens out somewhat across the top of the cab, whereas the MDC/Athearn cab roof is much more of a continuous arc over the roof. Anytime I've seen photos of RS-3s from almost straight on the ends, the flattening of the cab roof over top of the hoods is very apparent. In contrast, the MDC/Athearn hood is almost completely flat over the center of the roof. To me the Atlas one is closer to the slight curvature that continues over the top of the hood. I do agree that the length of the MDC/Athearn hood is better though. The Atlas cab has the right idea in terms of the shape and size of the window openings over the hood, but they are placed a bit too high. They also look to big because of the heavy molding of the window gaskets, which exaggerates their apparent size. The Atlas cab's side windows have some errors, that as I understand it, were partially concessions to molding requirements, much like the taper of the stack, slope on the top of the battery boxes, and the heavy radiator louvers that stick straight out. The old Stewart RS3 had roof and cab top curvature that was just wrong. The hood was too domed, and the cab was closer to a continuous arc over the top. Its worth mentioning that on for the prototype, the cab side windows on the engineer's side could be wide or narrow depending on the preferences of the purchasing road. The Atlas RS3 has the wider window option, while the MDC is more like the narrow option. Unbelievably, the best proportioned Phase 1 hood right now appears to be the Bachmann unit. Throw away the cab, drive and fuel tank, or get a shell on EBay, place on the drive of your choice (Bowser when available?), with a cab of your choice (Bowser when available?), and re-detail and it could well be the best Phase 1 unit available for the foreseeable future. Regards, Mike MacLatchy The Atlas shell has some issues, the cab roof profile is too round, and the long hood is about a scale foot too short. |
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Post by shinobi on Feb 28, 2017 22:18:07 GMT -8
Hello: Shinobi: In one of your earlier posts you state the Atlas cab has too round a roof, but it actually flattens out somewhat across the top of the cab, whereas the MDC/Athearn cab roof is much more of a continuous arc over the roof. Anytime I've seen photos of RS-3s from almost straight on the ends, the flattening of the cab roof over top of the hoods is very apparent. It's possible that I may have it backward, in which case I stand corrected. Sadly I don't have either of the models to hand to check anymore. If you have both the Athearn and Atlas RS3, perhaps you could take some side-by-side comparison photos and post them here? I also seem to recall something about the Atlas cab being too long front to back, maybe you could also compare that and report your findings. I plan on doing an RS3 kitbash in the near future, so when I do I will post an article here. I'll probably end up using components from a number of different manufacturers. In contrast, the MDC/Athearn hood is almost completely flat over the center of the roof. To me the Atlas one is closer to the slight curvature that continues over the top of the hood. I do agree that the length of the MDC/Athearn hood is better though. The Atlas cab has the right idea in terms of the shape and size of the window openings over the hood, but they are placed a bit too high. They also look to big because of the heavy molding of the window gaskets, which exaggerates their apparent size. The Atlas cab's side windows have some errors, that as I understand it, were partially concessions to molding requirements, much like the taper of the stack, slope on the top of the battery boxes, and the heavy radiator louvers that stick straight out. The cab center windows being located too high is an issue with both the Atlas and Athearn cabs. If you have a spare cab it is possible to cut the windows out of one cab, and glue them into the other cab slightly lower down. You'd just have to fill the gap afterwards. A fairly painstaking task that, depending on who you ask, may not really be worth it. The old Stewart RS3 had roof and cab top curvature that was just wrong. The hood was too domed, and the cab was closer to a continuous arc over the top. This is true, the Stewart RS3 was total garbage. About the only useful thing from the Stewart model is the different phases of hood sides. Its worth mentioning that on for the prototype, the cab side windows on the engineer's side could be wide or narrow depending on the preferences of the purchasing road. The Atlas RS3 has the wider window option, while the MDC is more like the narrow option. The windows on the RS-3 as I recall were 3 panes on the engineer's side, and 2 panes on the conductor's side. Unbelievably, the best proportioned Phase 1 hood right now appears to be the Bachmann unit. Throw away the cab, drive and fuel tank, or get a shell on EBay, place on the drive of your choice (Bowser when available?), with a cab of your choice (Bowser when available?), and re-detail and it could well be the best Phase 1 unit available for the foreseeable future. I'll have to disagree with you there. The Bachmann RS-3 is just pure junk. If memory serves, I believe the hood is actually too tall. This has resulted in some rather obvious paint scheme foobies. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 28, 2017 23:46:52 GMT -8
For the yellow box Atlas/Kato models, the drive from the RS11 and RS3 are fully swappable. They might have different weights, but that would be the only difference. When they were still expensive and you could still buy parts, I picked up a shell here, a frame there, driveshafts somewhere else, and used a C425 I got super cheap for trucks and motor. Not sure what I'm going to do with it now. I have a couple of Classic LV RS11s and they look so much better that I'd rather start with one of those undec to do LV 7643.
Athearn's former MDC model appears to be using the same drive as the last MDC releases, except for upgrades to the electronics for DCC. The problem here is in an effort to make them better MDC went to a Proto 2000 motor and trucks. So they will suffer the split gear issue. I bought a couple to flip two or three years ago and almost all of the gears in them were cracked.
I saw a couple undecs cheap at Springfield and it's the one thing I wish I'd picked up that I just plain forgot to go back for.
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Post by ddatrainman on Mar 1, 2017 0:16:46 GMT -8
I never really paid attention to the dimensions, I just knew that the Athearn was the best detailed/best looking accurate model. Meanwhile, the Atlas was the better puller. I just happened to have both models sitting on my desk so I took some comparison photos. You can definitely see the rounding on the Atlas model:    (Atlas is the stripped model, Athearn is the NYC unit) |
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Post by roadkill on Mar 1, 2017 6:36:53 GMT -8
Looks to me that the Atlas/Kato cab's 2 pane window is far too wide and the three pane is OK, whereas the MDC/Athearn cab has both the right width but too deep vertically. Hmmmm...
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Post by ambluco on Mar 1, 2017 7:28:47 GMT -8
How about a consolidation of the wrong parts to each: Athearn - Atlas - Bachmann - Bowser/Stewart?
If someone comes in via a search in a few years, a neatened response would be nice.
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Post by Brakie on Mar 1, 2017 12:25:01 GMT -8
Looks to me that the Atlas/Kato cab's 2 pane window is far too wide and the three pane is OK, whereas the MDC/Athearn cab has both the right width but too deep vertically. Hmmmm... Roger,To my mind that Athearn looks plain wrong.. Did Alco do 2 different windows phases? I've road in PC (exNYC) RS-3s and I don't recall the engineer having a large window. |
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Post by shinobi on Mar 1, 2017 14:17:15 GMT -8
I think it's pretty clear that the Athearn is the better shell overall. The hood roof curvature looks fine on both to me, but it's hard to tell. The biggest error of the Athearn is clearly the cab. The cab roof is definitely very slightly too curved on the Athearn, where the Atlas appears to have a more correct profile. The Athearn has better cab front windows, however the Atlas cab's front windows are not as good. Neither model has good side windows.
I think in theory, if you were to use the cab roof profile of the Atlas, the front cab faces of the Athearn, and scratchbuild your own cab sides, you'd have basically a perfect RS3 cab. The only issue is how well these parts would line up in reality.
If you can live with the middle cab windows being a little off, then the alternative here is to simply swap the Atlas cab onto the Athearn shell. I believe that is what Mark Roach did to create the Battenkill RS3 shown on his site.
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Post by ironrails on Mar 1, 2017 14:56:28 GMT -8
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Post by 12bridge on Mar 1, 2017 15:43:11 GMT -8
How about the original erecting drawing?  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 15:55:54 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 16:54:59 GMT -8
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 1, 2017 17:22:41 GMT -8
I have the NH clearance diagrams, and they show the section view through the cab. www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/dieseldgms/0517-0561.pdfIt shows that there are three roof curves per side: 13' 5.75" R - center is 1/2" off from CL of loco (which means there's roughly a 1" tangent dead center...but see the note below) 4' 0.25" R - center is 19.75" off from the loco CL. 16" R - from the side to the above curve The cab is 10' 0.125" wide. NOTE: There is a notation that all width dimensions are 1" wider than the drawings to allow for shop variations. That means that the 1" tangent shown above probably didn't exist. Using this info, I made a template in 3rdPlanIt, printed it out in HO scale and cut it out. I placed it on the roof of the Hobbytown cast metal cab: the top is too flat and the ends too sharp. I placed it on the Atlas Classic cab: dead on match. I placed it on the Athearn RTR cab: it's too round in the center. The Athearn cab appears to only have two radius curves instead of three, resulting in gaps between the template and the cab roof. It should be flatter. The RS-3 cab should be 6' 0 1/4" long. The short hood should be 9' 1" long and the long hood should be ~32' 4.75". These dimensions are based on the RS-2 plus 12" because while my RS-2 drawing shows these dimensions, my RS-3 drawing does not. However, they are the same scale. The RS-3 is 12" longer overall (over coupler pulling faces: 56' 5.75") than the RS-2 (55' 5.75"), and apparently that 12" is in the long hood, at least according to the drawings, as both the short hood and the cab are the same size on both drawings but the RS-3's long hood is longer (I'm guessing it's the missing 12"). www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/dieseldgms/0500-0516.pdfThe real Alco cab should be: 0.830" long. The Hobbytown cab is 0.830" The Atlas cab is 0.853" The Athearn RTR cab is 0.853" The real Alco short hood is: 1.251" long. The Hobbytown short hood is 1.324" The Atlas short hood is 1.235" The Athearn RTR short hood is 1.197" The real Alco long hood is: ~4.463" long. The Hobbytown long hood is 4.532" The Atlas long hood is 4.381" The Athearn RTR long hood is 4.526" |
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Post by dharris on Mar 1, 2017 18:03:49 GMT -8
I have the NH clearance diagrams, and they show the section view through the cab. www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/dieseldgms/0517-0561.pdfIt shows that there are three roof curves per side: 13' 5.75" R - center is 1/2" off from CL of loco (which means there's roughly a 1" tangent dead center...but see the note below) 4' 0.25" R - center is 19.75" off from the loco CL. 16" R - from the side to the above curve The cab is 10' 0.125" wide. NOTE: There is a notation that all width dimensions are 1" wider than the drawings to allow for shop variations. That means that the 1" tangent shown above probably didn't exist. Using this info, I made a template in 3rdPlanIt, printed it out in HO scale and cut it out. I placed it on the roof of the Hobbytown cast metal cab: the top is too flat and the ends too sharp. I placed it on the Atlas Classic cab: dead on match. I placed it on the Athearn RTR cab: it's too round in the center. The Athearn cab appears to only have two radius curves instead of three, resulting in gaps between the template and the cab roof. It should be flatter. The RS-3 cab should be 6' 0 1/4" long. The short hood should be 9' 1" long and the long hood should be ~32' 4.75". These dimensions are based on the RS-2 plus 12" because while my RS-2 drawing shows these dimensions, my RS-3 drawing does not. However, they are the same scale. The RS-3 is 12" longer overall (over coupler pulling faces: 56' 5.75") than the RS-2 (55' 5.75"), and apparently that 12" is in the long hood, at least according to the drawings, as both the short hood and the cab are the same size on both drawings but the RS-3's long hood is longer (I'm guessing it's the missing 12"). www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/dieseldgms/0500-0516.pdfThe real Alco cab should be: 0.830" long. The Hobbytown cab is 0.830" The Atlas cab is 0.853" The Athearn RTR cab is 0.853" The real Alco short hood is: 1.251" long. The Hobbytown short hood is 1.324" The Atlas short hood is 1.235" The Athearn RTR short hood is 1.197" The real Alco long hood is: ~4.463" long. The Hobbytown long hood is 4.532" The Atlas long hood is 4.381" The Athearn RTR long hood is 4.526" I believe you have won today's award of the best use of ridiculously obsessive but incredibly impressive use of facts in a Model Train Scale Fidelity discussion.   |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 1, 2017 18:07:23 GMT -8
dharris,  Thanks! |
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Post by roadkill on Mar 1, 2017 18:14:53 GMT -8
Good stuff, Paul!
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