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Post by steveturner on Oct 19, 2012 19:20:09 GMT -8
Guys i was wondering why you think Atlas changed sound/dcc suppliers. Is this a product issue or new guy making decisions. Seems like Atlas has done well with QSI in the past. In terms of rating though maybe comparing apples to oranges when it comes to sound is there actually one MFG thats better or do they all have their merits and niche followers. How about clubs, are they MFG specific or is it a dogs breakfast at clubs when it comes to sound. Seems like they all have their querks as they try to offer the ultimate in the sound experience! I think the change at Atlas took a few by surprise.Dont know if its long term or just specific locos! Personally though impossible i would love to stick to one brand of sound because i cannot figure out whats what and whos who sometimes on the track HA! ;D :)Steve
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Post by johndmock on Oct 19, 2012 22:25:55 GMT -8
Within the last year or two several manufacturers have switched sound companies...it seems Tsunami Sound is "all the rage".
There are likely a variety of reasons.
I know that not everybody likes QSI, but I have so few sound equipped engines that I don't know exactly why.
I use them the way they come without changing CV's, etc. In my case I'm using the MRC Sound Controller 2.0 to run my engines and operate the sound in either plain DC or a pseudo-DCC (not real DCC) environment. Being a generic sound controller, it has some limitations--but it gets the job done. I can even operate MTH sound equipped engines with it!
As far as advantages of Tsunami over QSI, I have yet to find them--in my case running the engines at mainline speeds, I usually find the motor noise and train noise begins to drown out the sound system anyway, so as much as I like to have some sound, I question whether or not it's worthwhile in HO at all due to the relatively tiny speaker size.
If new releases came entirely without sound, I'd be perfectly happy with them--but the latest trend is to offer sound-equipped engines only--at least in BLI's case.
John
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Post by nw611 on Oct 19, 2012 22:42:28 GMT -8
John, Atlas (and Kato) switched to ESU LokSound, not to Tsunami. ESU (Electronic Solutions Ulm) is the leading European supplier of sound decoders. I would say it is the standard in continental Europe. Probably ESU is giving Atlas better prices (and better quality) than QSI. Check the ESU website in English ("www.esu.eu/en"). Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by atsfan on Oct 20, 2012 4:37:14 GMT -8
To me QSI sound is not the best.
All QSI engines sound the same.
So Atlas switched to get better quality, or better pricing or business dealings.
I generally don't buy sound engines.
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Post by fmilhaupt on Oct 20, 2012 6:38:29 GMT -8
One factor may be that ESU has been making a bigger effort in the North American market in the past couple of years.
According to a Model Railroad Hobbyist podcast posted on June 29 of this year, ESU decided to increase their presence in the North American market and hired an employee in the US to take care of this. This includes increasing the number and quality of North American locomotive sound profiles, and making more of a marketing push to support them.
Manufacturers adopting ESU for models where ESU hadn't had sound profiles available before would be a natural outcome of this effort, if they're doing this right.
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Post by calzephyr on Oct 20, 2012 15:06:05 GMT -8
One factor may be that ESU has been making a bigger effort in the North American market in the past couple of years. According to a Model Railroad Hobbyist podcast posted on June 29 of this year, ESU decided to increase their presence in the North American market and hired an employee in the US to take care of this. This includes increasing the number and quality of North American locomotive sound profiles, and making more of a marketing push to support them. Manufacturers adopting ESU for models where ESU hadn't had sound profiles available before would be a natural outcome of this effort, if they're doing this right. It is probably a business decision for Atlas involving money and the fact ESU has very little business in the USA in the past years. They probably got a good deal and a lot of promises. PCM used the Loksound for about three years along with the Trix Big Boy and probably others in that line. I was not happy with any of the fifteen or so Loksound models that I have and have sold the Trix Big Boy since it was not acceptable at least to me. I have to believe they have improved some of the sounds since that was six to seven years ago now, but I prefer Soundtraxx over most of the other sound models. The one real great thing about the Loksound sound modules is the DCC motor drive. It was excellent at least in the older models! Larry |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Oct 20, 2012 19:26:53 GMT -8
QSI's decoder use some sort of manufactured sound where as Loksound and Soundtraxx use actual recorded sounds from various prototype locomotives.
Donnell
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2012 3:55:54 GMT -8
QSI's decoder use some sort of manufactured sound where as Loksound and Soundtraxx use actual recorded sounds from various prototype locomotives. Donnell Another "bit" of information on the old QSI decoders used by Atlas and Walthers use an 8-bit processor. An eight bit processor is limited and is one of the reasons why sound equipped Atlas and Walthers models sound like nondescript noise, instead of clear distinctive sounds. The digitized sound isn't helping either. QSI has since adopted 16-bit processors in their new Titan line of sound decoders. Although I don't know if they have finally converted to actual recordings or are still playing with their synthesizers. I personally would never buy a QSI sound equipped locomotive unless I got it at a steal of a price, so I could still have money left over to rip out the QSI garbage and install a Tsunami. But this is just my own personal taste. |
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 21, 2012 5:36:24 GMT -8
QSI's decoder use some sort of manufactured sound where as Loksound and Soundtraxx use actual recorded sounds from various prototype locomotives. Donnell Another "bit" of information on the old QSI decoders used by Atlas and Walthers use an 8-bit processor. An eight bit processor is limited and is one of the reasons why sound equipped Atlas and Walthers models sound like nondescript noise, instead of clear distinctive sounds. The digitized sound isn't helping either. QSI has since adopted 16-bit processors in their new Titan line of sound decoders. Although I don't know if they have finally converted to actual recordings or are still playing with their synthesizers. I personally would never buy a QSI sound equipped locomotive unless I got it at a steal of a price, so I could still have money left over to rip out the QSI garbage and install a Tsunami. But this is just my own personal taste. The new stuff is merely better quality synthesized. I bought a Revolution A and it just had the same sound files, though the files sound better, with more variety to the sounds. |
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Post by craigz on Oct 21, 2012 6:38:13 GMT -8
There's a guy on the QSI Yahoo list who says he's been intimately involved in the Titans. He continues to promise improved sound files, better this, better that. According to some users there are some improved sound files but most of them right now are old files. Titan supports stereo w/ two speakers and some users have tried it, said it's actually quite dramatic. I dunno. I'm guessing to get the new files onto existing Titans we'll have to buy the QSI programmer...and learn to use the damn thing.
I just bought Tsunamis for some Genesis F units...
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Post by Donnell Wells on Oct 21, 2012 8:04:11 GMT -8
In this sense, QSI is like Bachmann. They have all the tools and knowledge to do things right, they just don't. Hopefully, for Bachmann, this changes with the release of the SD70ACes and ES44ACs. As far as sound, I'm sticking with Soundtraxx...
Donnell
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Oct 21, 2012 11:47:38 GMT -8
Sort of like a chevy vs ford argument if you ask me. I find tsunami to me totally unusable, sounds are ok but motor drive/sound coordination has been impossible to solve for me. I'm just not going to use the word garbage to describe anything here.
To each his own.
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Post by marknycfan on Oct 21, 2012 12:42:48 GMT -8
As I understand the change it was a supply issue, LokSound boards were available.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Oct 21, 2012 13:36:53 GMT -8
Guys,
I'm a fan of LokSound, but I strongly suggest that we not be so quick to write off QSI. The new Titan and Emulator sounds are not vaporware.
Craig, you are referring to Loco Lee. He's the gentleman that is handling QSI's sound schemes. It's been a very slow process because basically, it's him doing a huge chunk of the work. But lately there have been very good signs of progress as the newer, updated schemes have been released. Yes, it's only been a few but more are coming out. I was skeptical at first, as I was one of the critics of the "white noise", and was going to stick with LokSound. However, these clips changed my mind.
This 567 sound scheme is a huge improvement, imho. I liked how at the beginning of time index 6:10, the 567 diesel sounds like it's straining to the max, trying to budge that heavy load of coal. The air let off ("pop-off") is also a noticeable improvement.
Another sound scheme that I was harsh with QSI about was their GE FDL version. Being a U-Boat fan, I stated to Pat Quinn in a detailed email that the distinctive GE exhaust "Chug" was an essential feature that was lacking on the then current QSI GE offerings. Well, on this clip, it sounds like QSI got "got the chug" right! The reverb on the K-series horn at time index 3:47 adds a nice touch as well.
Keep in mind that these vids were recorded with a camera that has a mono microphone.
A number of modelers, myself included, had been emailing QSI over the past several years with suggestions. Pat Quinn responded to us about 3 years ago, stating that they were performing their R&D and working hard to produce a better performing/sounding decoder. He asked that we be patient, and to consider that that there is a lot of work involved in capturing and editing sounds for decoders. I have no doubt that QSI did listen.
--------------------------------------------------------- There's a guy on the QSI Yahoo list who says he's been intimately involved in the Titans. He continues to promise improved sound files, better this, better that. According to some users there are some improved sound files but most of them right now are old files. Titan supports stereo w/ two speakers and some users have tried it, said it's actually quite dramatic. I dunno. I'm guessing to get the new files onto existing Titans we'll have to buy the QSI programmer...and learn to use the damn thing. I just bought Tsunamis for some Genesis F units...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2012 14:59:48 GMT -8
This 567 sound scheme is a huge improvement, imho. I liked how at the beginning of time index 6:10, the 567 diesel sounds like it's straining to the max, trying to budge that heavy load of coal. The air let off ("pop-off") is also a noticeable improvement.
Keep in mind that these vids were recorded with a camera that has a mono microphone.
To be honest the sound in that video of the 567 sucked pond water. Tinny doesn't start to describe the audio. It appears to be an improvement over the stuff used by Atlas, Walthers and Intermountain in previous releases. But you still need to listen to the decoder IN PERSON with your OWN EARSs and NOT over the internet to form an informed opinion. Sound is very subjective. What sounds good to me is horrible to another and vice-verse. Same with motor control, what someone feels is unworkable is fine with someone else. When asking questions about anything DCC or sound related on a forum is an open invitation for as many opinions as there are responses. The best advice is find someone using what YOU are interested in purchasing. IF after seeing it IN PERSON, then you can make up YOUR OWN MIND and decide what is best. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Oct 21, 2012 17:12:01 GMT -8
Yes Jim,
Believe it or not and with respect, I was actually expecting a "nay" comment from you, and it was right on cue, lol  . That's why I did post "imho", which was my opinion.
What I was listening for in those recordings were:
Air pop off duration.
Air brake release duration.
The distinct baritone chant of the 567.
The unique 4-cycle "Chug" of the GE clip.
Horn reverb.
Prime mover rpm range.
I was not disappointed. In spite of it being "tinny" as you say, I could hear the sound of the worn valves slapping in the 567s cylinder heads, just as on prototypes after several hundred thousand miles of running. So, in a nutshell I was listening for prototypical content, not fidelity. The fidelity comes in with quality enclosures & baffling.
Long before I got into metalizing, I was a train sound fan. Back in the late 1970s when I was a teen, people looked at me oddly as I stood next to the mainline in Tampa recording Amtrak SDP40fs and SCL hood units with a cassette "boom box". I'd play those sounds while running my small make-shift layout in my room. Even then I was dreaming about onboard sound for HO units, which seemed like a "Star Trek" technology fantasy. But of course it would be a little over 20 years before I'd see and hear it.
Instead of hanging out in the streets, I hung around railroad station, yards, and locomotive terminal and made some good friends in the process. The sounds I heard became etched in my memory which is why I often emailed my critiques to QSI and Soundtraxx back in the mid 2000s, in a respectful tone of course.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2012 17:42:40 GMT -8
What I was listening for in those recordings were:
Air pop off duration.
Air brake release duration.
The distinct baritone chant of the 567.
The unique 4-cycle "Chug" of the GE clip.
Horn reverb.
Prime mover rpm range.
I was not disappointed. In spite of it being "tinny" as you say, I could hear the sound of the worn valves slapping in the 567s cylinder heads, just as on prototypes after several hundred thousand miles of running. So, in a nutshell I was listening for prototypical content, not fidelity. The fidelity comes in with quality enclosures & baffling.
I couldn't hear what you heard on this video, the sound recording was so poor. To my ears all that I could hear were the shrill highs. I couldn't make out much else. Where you are elated at the six minute mark, I heard a bunch of noise that somewhat resembles an EMD 567. I'd like to hear in person, three identically prepared locomotives, one with Loksound, one with QSI and one with Tsunami. Then and only then can I say what I like. When I listen to the sample sound files on the Soundtraxx site, they don't sound the same as locomotives WITH THE TSUNAMI installed! Whereas my computer has six speakers which can recreate a deep base response, the little rectangle speaker in the long hood of an SD40-2 makes the same sound files have the base and clarity of a cheap Japanese transistor radio from the 1960's! So until I hear these others in person I can't say I like them or dislike them. I know I don't like the old 8-bit versions from QSI, which I have heard in person. |
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Post by carrman on Oct 21, 2012 20:57:48 GMT -8
Well, the horn sounded good.
Dave
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 22, 2012 7:18:55 GMT -8
Why did Atlas switch ? Simply put .... Rob liked what he heard.
Mark.
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 22, 2012 10:10:30 GMT -8
Guys,
I'm a fan of LokSound, but I strongly suggest that we not be so quick to write off QSI. The new Titan and Emulator sounds are not vaporware.
This 567 sound scheme is a huge improvement, imho. Yep. I watched that 567 video when it first came out and, yes, I admit it is better than the bizarre UFO sounds of the original QSI decoders and BLI engines. The start up is neat, as it sounds like you might expect a locomotive to sound like when starting up, except for the opening of the vents in the block and turning it to purge moisture before introducing fuel to the block. I digress... The operating sound is still synthesized, rather sampled from an actual 567. The Titan presents notching by briefly kicking up the volume while pitch bending the sound upwards. Then dropping volume back down as the motor runs. The Titan still falls far short in prototype fidelity, with the exception of the horn, but QSI has always been able to have clean sounding horns on their decoders. "Shut up, Tom! You're a shill for Soundtraxx!" say the detractors. If only. Not even a beta tester, sadly. "Motor control stinks in the Tsunami!" say they again. Nope. The motor control issues have long been solved, as the modeler can simply dive into the CV's and fine tune the motor control. It's easy, and if you use Decoder Pro, the results are eminently repeatable. Yes, a tiny speaker recorded by a tiny microphone is a less than optimal way of conveying what these models sound like in person. However, there is a way to decide for yourself which decoder more closely captures the prototype and generally sounds better. Want to really hear the difference? Simple. Fine a well done video of each type of decoder. Choose one of the videos and let it load. Start the video, then click over to something else so you can't see the video, but can still hear it. That's right, listen as if it were a radio program, just like the old days. Just listen. Repeat with the other video. Just listen. You decide. It's your railroad. On to the GE video... |
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 22, 2012 10:43:21 GMT -8
Guys,
I'm a fan of LokSound, but I strongly suggest that we not be so quick to write off QSI. The new Titan and Emulator sounds are not vaporware.
Another sound scheme that I was harsh with QSI about was their GE FDL version. Being a U-Boat fan, I stated to Pat Quinn in a detailed email that the distinctive GE exhaust "Chug" was an essential feature that was lacking on the then current QSI GE offerings. Well, on this clip, it sounds like QSI got "got the chug" right! The reverb on the K-series horn at time index 3:47 adds a nice touch as well.
Yeah, I remember this video. This one's more direct. It simply doesn't really sound like a GE FDL prime mover. It shows the same pitch bent/volume changing sound as all old QSI products. The 567 referenced in a previous post shows a definite improvement in sound over Gen 1 QSI, and at least an attempt is made to hide the pitch bending, but the FDL decoder is still total synthesized pitch bending. The RPM frequency should rise and the sound frequency should not rise and they both do in the video. There isn't any EMD 'whine' to cover the sound up and attempt to disguise the pitch bent sample and it shows. Next: Loksound |
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 22, 2012 11:01:45 GMT -8
My experience with Loksound has not been all that bad, but not great either.
Loksound at least uses sampled sound with sampled transitions, so their sound is actually fairly close to the prototype. I can ignore the lack of transition in their 567 in favor of the scream of their 645. Their turbo 645 sounds every bit as good as the Tsunami 645 Turbo. The horn was the sticking point, sound wise. It was weak. A K5LA horn should be obnoxious and this one, even at the highest volume level, merely twinkled.
Like most sound decoders, Loksound decoders really don't much like dirty track. They seem to be even more susceptible to track not scrupulously clean than either the QSI or Soundtraxx products.
At Naperville, on the Midwest Mod-u-track layout (great layout!) this past weekend, trains ran all over the layout with no issues. Yes, even the QSI/BLI/UFO E-7's that looked good but sounded weird ran with no issues, even at realistically slow scale speeds. No issues to report, except for a Loksound-equipped switcher. It would keep on restarting itself again and again.
The reaction of a Loksound to dirty track is to restart the prime mover, starting with the alarm bell, over and over again. This has always been especially annoying and is oddly reminiscent of the MRC sound decoders of old.
With a larger capacitor, I'll take a Loksound decoder before ever considering the current QSI product. The Tsunami beats them both as of now and that could (and should) change if the others want to get more serious with their sound.
Technology is always changing and I can't wait to see what they all have in store for us.
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 22, 2012 11:06:55 GMT -8
Atlas? The Loksound with go well with their GP40, as the sound is right.
Why to switch sounds?
1. Not switching sooner could be due to an exclusive supply contract with one manufacturer
2. Pressure from customers
3. Availability
4. Quality
And...MOST IMPORTANTLY TO ANY BUSINESS:
Price
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 11:26:53 GMT -8
Guys,
I'm a fan of LokSound, but I strongly suggest that we not be so quick to write off QSI. The new Titan and Emulator sounds are not vaporware.
Another sound scheme that I was harsh with QSI about was their GE FDL version. Being a U-Boat fan, I stated to Pat Quinn in a detailed email that the distinctive GE exhaust "Chug" was an essential feature that was lacking on the then current QSI GE offerings. Well, on this clip, it sounds like QSI got "got the chug" right! The reverb on the K-series horn at time index 3:47 adds a nice touch as well.
Yeah, I remember this video. This one's more direct. It simply doesn't really sound like a GE FDL prime mover. It shows the same pitch bent/volume changing sound as all old QSI products. If this is best QSI can must on the GE FDL, they still have a lot of work ahead of them. It not that much better than the QSI boards Walthers used in the U30B's. The QSI board still lacks the distinctive GE "gurgle". |
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 22, 2012 18:00:22 GMT -8
The current perfect off-the-shelf sound decoder would have Tsunami engine sounds, QSI bells and whistles, and ESU motor control.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Oct 22, 2012 19:29:16 GMT -8
What's wrong with Tsunami motor control?
Donnell
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 23, 2012 3:08:42 GMT -8
What's wrong with Tsunami motor control?
Donnell Off the shelf, it is a little abrupt, with the sound not following the model. The cv's need to be tweaked. |
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Post by diburning on Oct 23, 2012 5:54:43 GMT -8
QSI's decoder use some sort of manufactured sound where as Loksound and Soundtraxx use actual recorded sounds from various prototype locomotives.
Donnell Loksound somewhat does a bit of both. They also synthesize some of the sounds, and they don't seem to get the fact that the engine RPMs take time to increase when throttled up, not a sudden change to max RPM for any given notch (what I mean is, there are no transitions between notches for some of the soundsets. The 12-645 Non Turbo for the SW1500 or the 20-710 for the SD80MAC are examples) The ONLY soundset that I find to be acceptable from Loksound in their Select line is the 16-645 Non-turbo for the SD38. They actually got it right. When the prime mover starts up, it sounds like an old clunker, which adds variation. They also put the engine RPM changes in between the notches on that soundset, so I find that to be acceptable as well. Tsunami's motor control has gotten a bit better since they first came out. I personally would never buy a QSI sound equipped locomotive unless I got it at a steal of a price, so I could still have money left over to rip out the QSI garbage and install a Tsunami. But this is just my own personal taste. Same here! Same clowns, different circus tent. |
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. That's why I did post "imho", which was my opinion. 
