The hobby could die if we don't do these two things

[jlwii2000]

I always value this forum's feedback.  Do you believe I'm right or wrong here?  Not clickbait I swear....this is honestly how I feel.

[edwardsutorik]

I think the title is overly dramatic.

But I agree with the content. Not that if we DON'T, the sky will fall, but that it makes sense and that they are good a proper things to do.

I already pre-order anyway. To the point where I have surprised the shop owner that something was coming along. So that part's a wrap, anyway.

And being nice is, well, nice.


Ed

[lvrr325]

There will always be guys who have to see it in their hands before they buy it.

More and more of them will be out of luck because it's a risk to gamble whether or not they will purchase and the longer it sits on your shelf not turning over the more it costs you.

[Brakie]

Nov 4, 2017 0:52:00 GMT -8 lvrr325 said:

There will always be guys who have to see it in their hands before they buy it.

More and more of them will be out of luck because it's a risk to gamble whether or not they will purchase and the longer it sits on your shelf not turning over the more it costs you.

Or as we seen the model will be readily available at on line stores or e-Bay upon release. I bought my ST SD40-2 on line as I do 99% of my modeling needs..

The days of hands on looking is becoming a rare bird because Mom and Pop hobby shops can no longer afford the manufacturers monthly quota.

[bnsf971]

On point #2... Our local model railroad club has had some younger people (as young as 12) express interest in joining, and the 60-and-70-something members are resisting allowing them to join. I am one of the younger members at nearly 60, with only four people younger than me.
Their excuse is, "this is a model railroad club, not a babysitting service".
While I am at an age where I'm not totally thrilled about having to deal with potentially less-mature members, I do know if we don't encourage them to join, and remain interested, there will come a day in the not-too-distant future where I, and the other 4 members that are under 60, will be the ones presiding over the dismantling and disbanding of our club.

[grahamline]

We have a number of less-than-mature members, all of them over 60. Joining isn't realistic for some younger people -- we like a high level of involvement,beyond sitting around and telling stories. We have a fairly open guest policy, and generally pick up enough new people to replace those who move away or drop out.

[dem903]

As new to the hobby I see pro and cons to the pre-orders. More to the benefit of the manufacturer and not the railroader. Yes it does set an expected level of demand which is good for all and a locked in production run. However for the railroader it can cost more money, time and challenges. Example the Intermountain ET44AC NS dcc with sound, good product, in demand and one of the hot new engines. Second run on Intermountain website is $299.95. For example I looked for pre-orders these three major websites; Trainworld, no preorder this engine, ModelTrainStuff no preorders, and Factory Direct Trains, does not carry Intermountain. This is not an exhaustive search just a sample. So the options for the railroader is to only preorder from Intermountain at $299.95. Now compare that with the street price for run 1 that can be purchased between $219.99 and $229.99. This results in the having to wait for delivery and pay an additional $70-$80 for the engine. Based on the preorder most manufacturers will make more money as preorder is a MSRP. ScaleTrains on their website charges the same street price websites, which I give thumbs up. For the pre-orders to work the other manufacturers must change their MSRP to a street price level and online retailer websites need to expand for pre-orders to match the announcements. The pre-order also works against the new railroader. The new person entering the hobby has limited options and must search multiple websites for specific types of engines and/or road names that very limited and buy units that maybe sitting on the shelves for some time. As a result, this creates frustration to the new hobbyist and becomes a barrier to entering the hobby. Just my comments from a new person entering the hobby.

[stottman]

I don't pre-order. Never have. Never will.

Because of the pre-order system, buying stuff has turned into "impulse" buys for the most part.. So I am still playing "catch up".

Second, with the way delivery dates get pushed back, how am I supposed to properly budget that?

To much stress involved.

[tankcarsrule]

I got raked over the coals for daring to mention that RTR might be bad for the hobby. Your points are well taken.

Bobby

[calzephyr]

Pre-order is good for the importers but I don't pre-order any longer. Too many of the projects have not lived up to the advertisements.

The hobby has changed so much in the last twenty years and I did not change with it.

Larry

[riogrande]

Nov 4, 2017 7:14:42 GMT -8 stottman said:

I don't pre-order. Never have. Never will.

Because of the pre-order system, buying stuff has turned into "impulse" buys for the most part.. So I am still playing "catch up".

Second, with the way delivery dates get pushed back, how am I supposed to properly budget that?

To much stress involved.

I'm much like the above - difficult to budget when pre-order items are hard to predict when they will come due to pay for. If this is one of the things we need to do to keep the hobby from dying, I'm sorry, I can't do that. As it is I'm doing the best I can spending a significant sum each year on trains. Like Stottman, I'm often playing catch-up.

[Amboy Secondary]

I do pre-order, and buy mostly on line. If I were to depend on my Local retailers, I would have given up the hobby a long time ago. On the other side of the equation, I keep up with what's in the pipeline, and pretty much know what to expect. I don't need to touch it before I buy it. Yesterday, I Read on a Business News site, that On Line sales generate a return ratio of 1 in 3 products sold is returned, where the ratio for brick and Mortar is considerably less. For instance, I wouldn't dream of buying a car, online. But I will by a discretionary hobby item. I am better off buying clothing at a local retailer, where I can try it on, but I don't need to do that with a Tangent PRR Box car.

Inventory, is a problem to a retailer, because if a product doesn't move, it ties up the retailer's capital. This is true if it's a LHS, or Macys. Of course, if you are a retailer, and don't have a product to sell, you lose revenue. It's amazing what is offered as a pre-order today, I-Fones, frying pans, frozen food, and sometimes, they want payment up front.

As business looks to further cut cost, and increase net income, we are going to see more of this, not less, so we may as well save our energy for enjoying our hobby.

[bnsf971]

Nov 4, 2017 6:18:45 GMT -8 grahamline said:

We have a number of less-than-mature members, all of them over 60. Joining isn't realistic for some younger people -- we like a high level of involvement,beyond sitting around and telling stories. We have a fairly open guest policy, and generally pick up enough new people to replace those who move away or drop out.

We don't. If you are not a full, dues-paying member, you are not allowed to be anywhere or touch anything without a full member present, and you are still not allowed to touch anything at any time, even with a full member present. And 2/3 of our membership seems to be the "sit and bitch" contingent.

[Paul Cutler III]

jlwii2000,
1). Pre-orders. Yes, one can cancel your pre-orders with a local hobby shop without financial penalty to you. However, there can be a financial penalty to the LHS, who usually pays COD when the item arrives. If the LHS can cancel a pre-order before it ships to them, then it can be canceled by them without financial penalty. However, after it ships, the LHS has to try to sell it to someone else (which may be troublesome if it's the "Obscure & Western RR") or they can return it to the distributer/manufacturer...but that costs shipping and a potential "restocking fee", which is money out of the LHS pocket. Basically, you're screwing the LHS by canceling after it ships.

Depending on the LHS, if you do this more than once, they may decide not to take your pre-order any longer or demand a non-refundable deposit that equals the shipping/restocking fee. Margins are so low these days that a few returns can eat up all the profit from a small order.

Of course, one can go strictly to big online dealers that will ask you before shipping, but then you're killing off the LHS, which is another "Death of the Hobby" button that people like to hit on.

2). I doubt there's a "wildly popular" model that got canceled because it didn't get enough pre-orders. If it was wildly popular, it would have had enough pre-orders. Example: the Athearn UP Heritage units were so wildly popular with pre-orders that Athearn increased the production run to meet demand and actually lowered the production price before the models came out (name the last time that ever happened). "High demand" is relative. It can be in high demand for 2000 people who all buy one each, but the model will be a failure if the minimum run is 3000.

3). I agree with being encouraging, but some people just won't take any help no matter how one coaches it. Some people will take any criticism poorly.

BTW, man...Colts gear? Really? I'm so sorry...

bnsf971,
Our club has gone through the same thing. The main problem is that someone has to be responsible for the kids. There would have to be at least two adults in with the kids at all times in today's climate, perhaps more because our 10,000 sq. ft. club has a lot of different areas. That demands a lot of commitment from those guys. They'd have to be willing to give up their time for the foreseeable future (years, even). We'd thought of rotating members watching the kids, but there just wasn't enough interest. Instead, we host occasional Boy Scout meetings, where there's always a couple troublemaking kids running around (reinforcing the idea that any youth program has to be closely monitored by adults).

BTW, kids are always welcome to our club, and they can be "guests" of a member (several kids and grandkids of members have been running trains at our club for years). It's not like we're anti-kid, just not very willing to be a babysitting service where the parents drop their kids off at the door then come back in 2 or 3 hours to pick them up. That's probably not going to happen (and for the record, I was in the last youth group in our club back in the early 1990's).

dem903,
The trick is that you're seeing the frustration from today's perspective where one has to hunt down what you want and then find the best price. In yon olden days (before pre-orders and limited runs), the frustration was in the not getting what you wanted at all, no matter the price. One had to learn how to kit-bash or scratch-build to get the rare model you wanted, then learn how to detail and paint and decal, then learn how to get it to run well. It would take years, maybe decades, of skill building to eventually acquire that special model you wanted at the quality level you like. Or you bought really expensive brass models (but you still had to learn how to paint & decal...or pay someone else to).

Today, a simply internet search or two will get some pretty obscure and rare models to your door within days. The barrier to new modelers is miniscule compared to 30 years ago. It may not seem like it, but it really is very easy to be a model railroad today vs. the olden days of yore.

[carrman]

Nov 4, 2017 0:52:00 GMT -8 lvrr325 said:

There will always be guys who have to see it in their hands before they buy it.

More and more of them will be out of luck because it's a risk to gamble whether or not they will purchase and the longer it sits on your shelf not turning over the more it costs you.

Preordering is a risk because you might get substandard product and be stuck with it. If I had preordered Atlas U33B's, I'd be pretty pissed right about now over the cabs. We simply, with damned few exceptions, cannot trust the manufacturers enough to order blindly!!!

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

I won’t say never, but preorder is NOT my method of operation as there is very little that I HAVE to have. The GTEL was one and I had an envelope in the treasury that was routinely added to during the order and delivery time so I had the cash on hand. I’m not a regular user of plastic for such uncescessities of life as toy trains. I can’t see telling a whole bunch of manufacturers that I am going to order their new product and then stiff them when the time comes that the product is delivered. I wasn’t raised like that. Therefore the uncertainty of delivery dates, even when or if, leave me on the sideline.

I do see the value of encouraging and welcoming new people into the hobby, young and old. While the groups of model rails that I am associated with are predominately older and mostly retired, there are young folks encouraged and welcomed. There is a lot of competition for their attention. I believe it’s an obligation of us all, including manufacturers, distributors and the hobby ‘press’ to welcome, engage and encourage their participation in our hobby.

James, I think you should do a video for the supplier industry and let them know that there are lots of customers out here that don’t like being held hostage to the preorder uncertainty, although, it’s understood, their business may die of uncertainty and impatience of their customers. A two way street out here. Maybe some more undecorated offerings with parts bags to allow the more ambitious to personalize their own fleet.

What’s dying is the local store business model, not just hobbies. Suppliers and consumers alike have to learn to deal with that certainty.

[TBird1958]

Same as it ever was.............

Personally I don't think there's ever been a better time to be involved in the hobby. What's in danger of dying is the craft and skill aspects of it, we all find our own way to enjoy it of course, but personally it wouldn't be a hobby at all if it's only requirement was to spend money and open boxes.

[bluedash2]

I hate preorder and never did. As was said here above, too many dates being pushed back too often is not fun at all.

Now that being said- I believe the prices are getting too high. Yes the folks who keep them all making money can afford it but they day IS going to come when those folks will be too old to live and will be replaced by folks with less money to spend. And maybe will decide not to spend it on trains period. That’s all I worry about but that’s very important for the furture. It is the best time ever for the hobby tho.

As much as I like the genesis type of locos and cars, I can do the details myself. It’s far more gratifying.

[edwardsutorik]

Nov 4, 2017 8:50:54 GMT -8 carrman said:

Preordering is a risk because you might get substandard product and be stuck with it. If I had preordered Atlas U33B's, I'd be pretty pissed right about now over the cabs. We simply, with damned few exceptions, cannot trust the manufacturers enough to order blindly!!!

That's how I feel about those NARC cars that were discussed in an earlier topic. At least, with the U33B's, you could SEE the model. Here, they're looking for orders and have nothing to show.

I went several pages in on the order form--nowhere did I read that "we only want an indicator of your interest".

Up 'til now, the NARC stuff I've seen hasn't impressed me. So, I'm supposed to take a chance on vaporware with someone who has yet to produce something acceptable to me?

IF they show a real model and ask for orders, 'nother story.


Note that Tangent, Exactail, Moloco, Scale Trains are very good at showing the real thing.


Unless someone has a track record, I'm not pre-ordering vaporware.



Ed

[riogrande]

If things go according to plan, my hobby will be installing drywall and drop ceiling and tile floor, and then designing/building a layout. I'm not sure when I will have time to get into the craft end of the hobby but I hope it won't be too long. I may even have a workshop area to do those fun things which I didn't have while I was shoehorned into a small town home basement room.

As for prices, they are getting up there and I can only afford a couple $45 freight cars here and there, which seems to be where many of the highest quality pieces are priced at. Some are higher like the very nice Moloco cars. I do try to take advantage of sales and deals where I can - such as when ExactRail has their specials. But the higher prices do play into the ability to pre-order or not, in my cases not.

the day IS going to come when those folks will be too old to live and will be replaced by folks with less money to spend.

People keep saying that but yet people keep coming along, like James (the OP) who are fairly young and flush with disposable income and can afford to spend far more than I spend on an annual basis. You are making a big assumption based on supposition or anecdotal evidence. I have heard the argument that the spenders are aging out and what will happen when they are retired or gone. Without omniscient powers, how can we really be sure that things are that dire, and that their aren't younger professionals in their 30's and 40's who are taking over where the 70+ year-old's are leaving off. If you hang out with a bunch of old guys and don't see any young, you would want to be worried probably. But then that's only an infinitesimal fraction of that hobby world. Is it truly realistic to make a categorical judgment on the state of things based on little data? It is statistically insignificant - even if you have a larger sample.

My statistically insignificant and anecdotal evidence that things are not as dire is that I actually see more and more 30's and 40's hobbyists participating in train forums. You can tell who many of them are because they talk about their children. There is also more and more demand for "modern" trains and while there are "older" people who are into modern, it tends to be dominated by younger rail fans by and large.

But ... if you happen to be right, and the buyers dry up, it isn't like there isn't a bazillion trains out there for us to go find at train shows or Ebay. As much as I truly enjoy obtaining nice new accurate, never offered before, freight cars and engines, I don't view my moral obligation to the hobby to treat it like a charity and "donate" to keep it alive. I am not well-to-do enough to take on that burden, especially because I have a greater responsibility to my wife and family along side the hobby I enjoy.

So we can enjoy the gravy train while it lasts and if it goes away, it isn't the end of the world as long as we have our basic needs being met. Then we go back to bear skins and stone knives and the skilled kit bashers and builders will be king once more and happy as Larry.

[fr8kar]

Nov 4, 2017 9:41:31 GMT -8 TBird1958 said:

Same as it ever was.............

Personally I don't think there's ever been a better time to be involved in the hobby. What's in danger of dying is the craft and skill aspects of it, we all find our own way to enjoy it of course, but personally it wouldn't be a hobby at all if it's only requirement was to spend money and open boxes.

Yeah, but...

It's always been that way. All I had to do was open the box to start with my first Tyco trainset. This has always been a "play with it" hobby in contrast to static model building hobbies. There are many of us who apply those static model building techniques to our model trains, but in the end they're all designed to run and move and be coupled and set out and so on. Being able to operate the models is part of what defines model railroading. Since this is something that's always been achievable (at least in my lifetime) by simply opening a box - to say nothing of the quality of what's inside the box - I don't see developing the craft and skill set being critical to enjoying the hobby. I think it's an important component, especially for someone who wants to stay challenged in the hobby. Take someone like my cousin, who scratchbuilds radio control biplanes and flies them at the local air park and Jim Bob who goes to HobbyTown and buys an RTR plane, they're both enjoying a plane flying hobby.

Now for someone like me or you, that's not enough. Building the models - kit building, kitbashing, scratchbuilding, and lately designing and 3D printing - this is the primary way I enjoy the hobby since I was 13. If this aspect didn't exist I doubt you or I would stay interested. I'd probably go back to racing radio controlled cars (a fun, competitive, but extremely expensive pursuit).

But even if all the locomotives and rolling stock and vehicles and structures were available, there would still be layout/module/diorama building, scenery work, lighting, operations, and so on. I know a lot of people welcome the huge selection of RTR and kits we have today because it frees up time that would otherwise be spent building those models.

I can give you an example: I had many dozens of hours into the CAD to print all the Thrall 5750 carbon black cars from 1968 to 1989. It was going to cost me about $200 each to print and scratchbuild those cars. I now have six of them that are darn near perfect out of the box (I preordered them, by the way, and did so gladly with no financial obligation through the Scale Trains website) and I spent just under $235 for them, shipped. Now I can turn my attention to other design and build projects, like some HO scale semi-truck models I've been working on. Or I can start on another Free-mo module.

I certainly don't want to de-emphasize the craft and skill aspects you mentioned, because they are important to me. But I believe they naturally follow the first step of open the box and play with it. If opening the box and playing with it is fun, then eventually the mind imagines something that's not in a box to buy and that's where the craft and skill begins.

[riogrande]

Nov 4, 2017 11:43:46 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

But even if all the locomotives and rolling stock and vehicles and structures were available, there would still be layout/module/diorama building, scenery work, lighting, operations, and so on. I know a lot of people welcome the huge selection of RTR and kits we have today because it frees up time that would otherwise be spent building those models.

That is a point I have made to folks who are critical of the RTR trend in rolling stock of the last 20 year, that it's no small thing to model a railroad or a portion of it. There are tons of time consuming aspects to the hobby to reach a point that someone like Rob Spangler has, with a well running, scenic'd, realistic layout with trains filled with representative rolling stock operating in a realistic way. Rob has done such a fantastic job that I wonder where he finds the time to "do it all". With full-time jobs (some with long commutes), wives, (kids in many cases), honey-do lists, home projects and familiy obligations all competing with copious amounts of time to build a model railroad.

Building a model railroad indeed consists of more than getting realistically detailed and weathered cars prepared for a layout. A layout has to be designed well, bench-work built (carpentry skills), wired (electrical skills), scenery (craft skills and attention to imitating nature), track laying skills (calculating minimums, grades, yards, industries for switching, staging, operations etc. Yes, lighting too. The list truly goes on and it can seem overwhelming if you try to take it all in at once. Now imagine trying to do all those things and having to populate a sizable layout without RTR, and build all those pieces of rolling stock one by one, AND make them era appropriate, add details, tune them, weather them etc. RTR starts to look like a nice time saver to free up time to do many of those other things need doing if you want a scenic's operating layout.

I certainly don't want to de-emphasize the craft and skill aspects you mentioned, because they are important to me. But I believe they naturally follow the first step of open the box and play with it. If opening the box and playing with it is fun, then eventually the mind imagines something that's not in a box to buy and that's where the craft and skill begins.

I definitely get-it that crafting fine models, even if you take an RTR model and weather it realistically (Marks are freaking awesome), add COTS or ACI labels, or kit bash or build craftsman kits to match prototype photo's - those are all challenging and satisfying parts of the hobby. In fact for folks who don't have a space for a layout, that often IS the hobby for a number of years. Those things do take "chops" to use a musicians term, or skill. Skills are something probably every one can develop to some degree, but there are probably those, no matter how much effort and time they take, they will never be able to play a guitar like David Gilmore (my favorite and I'm a crappy guitar player btw), or to a super realistic weathering job - I've seen stuff on other forums I just have to keep my shut while people come in and say how great the model looks and to me it looks like a 5 year old weathered it -but at least they are trying. I'm looking forward to setting up shop and taking some cheap models and getting my feet wet in the coming months, God willing.

Bottom line, the hobby is a diverse thing with many ways to enjoy it - and I sure enjoy seeing what many of our fellow members here have to offer and am inspired by it.

[Deleted]

A couple of points here...while there may be "no financial obligation" to the buyer at the time of pre-order, who will get stuck with the unwanted item? It simply won't go to the island of misfit toys...rather it will sit on the shelf at the hobby shop, most likely. I know of at least two manufacturers that require the hobby dealer to take on the inventory or risk being let go if they continue to cancel pre-ordered items.

I am guilty of canceling a couple of pre-orders myself...but only after I saw photos of the engines...the engines in question were from two different manufacturers. Both engine types had issues with their assembly and had incorrect parts or were poorly assembled. Anything that I pre-order now will be a firm commitment to the dealer...unless I am able to cancel the items before the pre-order date passes. I don't think it's fair to the dealer or hobby shop if one is ordering up a slew of items with a fickle attitude about paying up, personally. I think that is somewhat inappropriate, and irresponsible. If the item arrives and is damaged, I can always send it back for a replacement.

I think the converse should hold true...ONLY pre-order what you can really afford or want/need. That way, if a financial hardship comes about, the hobby dealer will most likely understand. I don't believe this would be the case if one was simply pre-ordering a slew of items and refusing them upon delivery.

On the subject of ordering, we can't get a certain company to allow pre-orders for an undecorated EMD second generation diesel model, even though there was tremendous demand in the first and only run of this particular undecorated EMD second generation model.

I think if manufacturers listened more to modelers and model railroaders, those of us in the hobby for the enjoyment can shed some light to the profiteers about what WE want produced. But, not by phantom ordering a ton of stuff...and leaving someone to pay the bills.

[jbilbrey]

My 2 Cents [well 3 as you see when you read my response.

1.  Pre-Ordering:  While I am not a fan of pre-ordering, I do see me doing that through ScaleTrains.  I would rather see an example, even if it is a pre-production model, of what I am ordering instead of some artwork.  I used to pre-order a lot through some LHS's.  But, I gradually ceased because of items getting screwed up [lettering shifted over a panel or two, models being not quite "right", locomotives not pulling well, etc.].  It would be nice if I could find a place that allowed pre-ordering with no questions asked, but I've had no luck.  And as others said, It is hard to explain to a LHS owner that no I don't want X item because Y company screwed Z on it up.  The other problem is the slippage in scheduling.  I am happily married to an understanding wife.  But when I say I'm pre-ordering such-and-such and it comes in the a year later, my wife forgets that first conversation and thinks I bought such-and-such twice.  When a company gets it down to 6 months or so, it is easier to keep that marital bliss in the household.

2.  Encouragement:  I was fortunate that when my father and I joined a local model railroad club nearly 30 years ago, some of the older members to the time to encourage my participation in the hobby.  I didn't always do things right, but they were nice when they pointed out my blunders I try to remember this fact as my son gets more interested in the hobby.  Does he always do things correctly?  No.  Has he broke some of my equipment?  Yes.  Do I come down hard on him when he makes mistakes?  No.  I want the hobby to be enjoyable for him.  He likes passenger trains, stack trains, and autorack trains.  While I prefer the "classic" freights consisting of hoppers, boxcars, and flats, I broke down and purchased a Genesis Auto-Max car for $15 at a local train show for him today.

3.  Cost:  This is going be a touchy one, but I am sorry.  For the hobby to continue to attract new model railroaders, there is going have to be "affordable" equipment available.  Are Walthers "Mainline" and ScaleTrains "Operator" lines perfectly detailed and 100% accurate?  No, but they are more affordable than the "Proto" and "Rivet Counter" lines.  Honestly as much as we may complain about how ExactRail and ScaleTrains are "shorting vendors", I'd have to chose a CSX ScaleTrains ET44AH over a Genesis ES40DC if I was looking for a "contemporary CSX locomotive" because the first is $50 cheaper [MSRP].  In other words, there is that fine line between "uber-detailed" models and having R-T-R locomotives ever-increasing in price.  With Genesis GP's hitting $179 [again, MSRP], I am going scrounge around and really think before committing the funds to buy one.  Over the last year, I passed on IC and GM&O GP38-2's, SOU GP9's, Bowser SD40-2's, etc. partly because of having limited funds and the promise of something better down the road.

Related to cost was a conversation I had with my son today.  He asked why my locomotives didn't have sound when his did.  I explained it this way to him.  I am forsaking sound right now so that he can have items with sound.  His Birthday Present [which comes the weekend before Christmas] is a Lionel Polar Express Berkshire with sound, DCC, etc.  For him to get that, means I sacrifice somewhat on what I get.  Instead of pre-ordering and paying the $150 for a Fox Valley GP60 after it was released, I waited and picked one up on sale for $100.

James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN

[riogrande]

Nov 4, 2017 17:37:13 GMT -8 jbilbrey said:

My 2 Cents [well 3 as you see when you read my response.

Cost:  This is going be a touchy one, but I am sorry.  For the hobby to continue to attract new model railroaders, there is going have to be "affordable" equipment available.  Are Walthers "Mainline" and ScaleTrains "Operator" lines perfectly detailed and 100% accurate?  No, but they are more affordable than the "Proto" and "Rivet Counter" lines. 

Honestly as much as we may complain about how ExactRail and ScaleTrains are "shorting vendors", I'd have to chose a CSX ScaleTrains ET44AH over a Genesis ES40DC if I was looking for a "contemporary CSX locomotive" because the first is $50 cheaper [MSRP].  In other words, there is that fine line between "uber-detailed" models and having R-T-R locomotives ever-increasing in price.  With Genesis GP's hitting $179 [again, MSRP], I am going scrounge around and really think before committing the funds to buy one.  Over the last year, I passed on IC and GM&O GP38-2's, SOU GP9's, Bowser SD40-2's, etc. partly because of having limited funds and the promise of something better down the road.

Related to cost was a conversation I had with my son today.  He asked why my locomotives didn't have sound when his did.  I explained it this way to him.  I am forsaking sound right now so that he can have items with sound.  His Birthday Present [which comes the weekend before Christmas] is a Lionel Polar Express Berkshire with sound, DCC, etc.  For him to get that, means I sacrifice somewhat on what I get.  Instead of pre-ordering and paying the $150 for a Fox Valley GP60 after it was released, I waited and picked one up on sale for $100.

James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN

Many others have brought up cost as a deterrent to new modelers but I'm not sure why this is a touchy subject. You mentioned it is why ScaleTrains offered the low cost box car, and of course Athearn offers the Roundhouse line, Atlas offers the Trainman line, Walthers Trainline and equivalent and there is also Accurail easy to build inexpensive kits. Aren't those adequate solutions to the cost dilemma for new/younger modelers? What more can be done under the current economic conditions? There seems to a fairly wide spread effort by the manufacturers to provide inexpensive model trains.

Also regarding cost, hasn't model railroading always been an expensive hobby, especially if we wanted nice models? And because it has been an expensive hobby, cost tends to be a touchy subject with folks who can't afford all the nice trains they would like. Raises hand! I actually have been able to afford a lot of nice stuff compared to the olden days when i had a much tighter budget. But naturally as my budget has increased, the cost of nice models has shot up to cancel out much of those gains - now many models I buy are in the $30-53 dollar price range. End result is I can't afford to buy as much nice stuff as some members of this forum or as much as I would like to. There are still Moloco, Tangent and ExactRail models on my want list that are waiting for a slot in my budget; but I really should be thankful for the models I have managed to afford and and count my blessing rather than fall into the trap of never being satisfied and always wanting more - good old American materialism.

I know cost has been a controversial subject in model railroading and people have complained for years at the raising prices and high cost. But amid that time, there has been an explosion of the nicest, finest models we have ever seen in the history of the hobby and those nice models come at a cost. Maybe we should stop and count our blessings and the world is not a fair place - some have more than others; in the US our standard of living is very high compared to the vast majority of people around the world.

It's nice you are willing to sacrifice sound on your engines so your son can have it. That's what parents often do.

My dad raised us four kids in a single income family as an Air Force officer it was a modest income and not nearly as generous as what James reports they get these days. No way my dad could afford a fancy SUV and provide 4 kids with music lessons, musical instruments, camps and some nice things if they didnt sacrifice. My parents sacrificed things so me and my sisters could have a better life, go to college and get a degree with no student debt etc.

Frankly, marital counsellors will tell you money problems are top on the list of reasons for conflict and money is often a touchy for many people regardless of train hobby.
So it isnt unusual for money/cost to be a frequent subject in the train hobby and it will probably always be a sore spot for people who can't afford the nice things they want.

I want more, but do I need it? Not really. I still spend what feels like a lot to me and always playing catch up on things I can't afford at a given moment. Moloco came out with another run of their nice PC box car; I bought one last time and would like to have bought the other this time but don't have the budget for it - now it's sold out for a 3rd time. That's life.

[atsfgp7u]

Budgeting for the arrival of pre-orders that are SET BACK should not be a problem for anyone. If a $240 item has an ETA of 12 months, then you budget to put away $20 per month. If it is delayed a couple of months, I see no big deal about the accumulated money sitting for a while until it arrives. Once decent interst rates return, you could even make a few cents due to the delay!
If ETAs were suddenly brought FORWARD I could see THAT as being a potential problem, but not set back.

Were not confusing our frustration at the delay with our budgeting, are we? Sounds like it to me.

cheers
Dave

[atsfgp7u]

Pre ordering has its pros and cons.
On the cons side - many of us like to see and feel before we buy - that is obvious. And we are asked to trust that a new manufacturer will produce a quality product - which clearly is in the lap of the gods. It also doesn't offer instant gratification - pre orders mean we no longer walk into the hobby shop with an air of expectation, excitedly open the box, check the quality of the product, lay down our hard earned bucks and within a few minutes (or maybe a few hours) are back home trying our our latest acquisition on the layout.

On the pros side, manufacturers can make to order (maybe with a small increase in numbers to the quantity reserved.) That allows them to turn over their money quickly as there isn't half the run sitting on the shelf for gosh knows how long. And speaking of the shelf, the size of warehouse space is reduced significantly. Most manufacturers no longer need massive warehouse space - again less holes in the bucket.

Go back to the old days and see how much new product was released in a 12 month period. Compare that to today. And NOW we see what the benefit is to us of "order on demand". Smart manufacturers can employ their money more efficiently which gives them the cash flow to reinvest in the next run much sooner than under the old system.

True, order on demand has its frustrations, and doesn't suit all of us - but the up side is that we are seeing much more new product faster than ever before. Of course THAT may bring its own problems trying to cashflow all those new goodies we're tempted by. (My Mum would have called that "Eyes bigger than tummy - grin)
cheers
Dave

[jbilbrey]

Jim,

I agree with you. Concerning the less-expensive but still higher quality than train-set stuff, the hobby needs to make sure those items remain available. The potential problem is that with the gradual disappearance of "brick and mortar" hobby shops, some of that visibility is at risk of being lost. There are also some that "put down" the lower-quality items for not being as good as a Genesis locomotive because they forget that the person asking about it may not be ready to get the Genesis locomotive.

With regards to cost, a friend put it this way to me; you have to chose between quality and quantity. I'll raise my hand with you; my desire for nicer trains certainly could write checks that I couldn't cash. So, I prioritize what I get. Just as you were trying to justify the ScaleTrains Carbon Black cars, I was at a show today trying to match cars on tables with photos on my Flickr page. Even if it was a "good deal", I passed on some $15 ExactRail hoppers because I didn't have photos of them in Middle TN.

I also want more than I need. For me I have to balance American Materialism with the simple fact - I don't have the space and resources for everything I want. That is the other thing I have been striving to teach my children to varying degrees of success. You can only have so many of something before they get in the way. My son got mad at me today because I wouldn't buy a locomotive despite having the $$$ in my wallet. But the simple fact was he didn't need it; he was just wanting it. He already has enough to "run" and is getting more for Christmas.

And sometimes, the money just isn't there no matter how good one budgets or how much one thinks he needs it. You also talked about missing the the PC boxcar; I know that feeling. I passed on an ExactRail covered hopper couple years ago that matched a photograph that I took because I had other things to spend $$$ on. I later purchased the Walther's car of the same prototype, but there was no guarantee that Walthers would have released one.

James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN

[riogrande]

Nov 4, 2017 21:58:35 GMT -8 atsfgp7u said:

Budgeting for the arrival of pre-orders that are SET BACK should not be a problem for anyone. If a $240 item has an ETA of 12 months, then you budget to put away $20 per month. If it is delayed a couple of months, I see no big deal about the accumulated money sitting for a while until it arrives. Once decent interst rates return, you could even make a few cents due to the delay!
If ETAs were suddenly brought FORWARD I could see THAT as being a potential problem, but not set back.

Were not confusing our frustration at the delay with our budgeting, are we? Sounds like it to me.

cheers
Dave

I don't pre-order because things can be fluid with my model RR budget, and I don't want to leave a vendor holding the bag if can't follow through with a purchase. I do budget or earmark budget for items coming out in the future and plan for them. Problem is, sometimes there are items I really want that converge at the same time and compete for that money - which is limited. That's when things often do crunch and you have to let some items go un-purchased.

So as you can imagine, and others have mentioned that we are usually playing catch-up when funds become available to purchase items that we didn't have money for when they first came out. That is part of the fluidity issue mentioned above.

You mentioned delays; often I look at delays as a good thing because it may free up a months budget or more, to catch up on those items I couldn't afford from a few months ago, or a few years ago.

I don't know, but your argument above doesn't really seem to fit my situation well. In the end, I manage as best I can and can't complain too much.

[riogrande]

Nov 4, 2017 22:45:55 GMT -8 jbilbrey said:

Jim,

The potential problem is that with the gradual disappearance of "brick and mortar" hobby shops, some of that visibility is at risk of being lost.

People have raised the issue of visibility and disappearance of brick and mortar hobby shops a lot over the past few years. Here are some considerations which may suggest that all is not lost in the visibility idea. For starters, the younger generation is very much comfortable with online things, shopping, reviewing, and viewing. Yes, it's not physically present but frankly brightly well lit large res photo's of models can give you a much better look that you might get at a hobby shop anyway.

I've gotten quite comfortable with online viewing and purchasing and prefer it. At the outset, I don't have any shops within a decent drive anyway so going to a shop to view trains up close and personal isn't even an option for me, or a large percentage of the population at large either.

There are also some that "put down" the lower-quality items for not being as good as a Genesis locomotive because they forget that the person asking about it may not be ready to get the Genesis locomotive.

That is a social issue that well, there is no easy answer for. All you can do is foster a positive environment and enjoy the hobby on your own terms and make the necessary compromise.

With regards to cost, a friend put it this way to me; you have to chose between quality and quantity. I'll raise my hand with you; my desire for nicer trains certainly could write checks that I couldn't cash. So, I prioritize what I get. Just as you were trying to justify the ScaleTrains Carbon Black cars, I was at a show today trying to match cars on tables with photos on my Flickr page. Even if it was a "good deal", I passed on some $15 ExactRail hoppers because I didn't have photos of them in Middle TN.

Quality vs. quantity and yes, maybe you have to build a fleet over time, rather than have a lot quickly. Patience, smelling the flowers a long the way, work on stuff and save and it comes along.

I also want more than I need. For me I have to balance American Materialism with the simple fact - I don't have the space and resources for everything I want. That is the other thing I have been striving to teach my children to varying degrees of success. You can only have so many of something before they get in the way. My son got mad at me today because I wouldn't buy a locomotive despite having the $$$ in my wallet. But the simple fact was he didn't need it; he was just wanting it. He already has enough to "run" and is getting more for Christmas.

A life long dilemma and struggle!

And sometimes, the money just isn't there no matter how good one budgets or how much one thinks he needs it. You also talked about missing the the PC boxcar; I know that feeling. I passed on an ExactRail covered hopper couple years ago that matched a photograph that I took because I had other things to spend $$$ on. I later purchased the Walther's car of the same prototype, but there was no guarantee that Walthers would have released one.

James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN

For sure. But all is not always lost if you cant get that box car or covered hopper when it was released. These days with train shows and Ebay, I've found 9 times out of 10, with a little patience I can treasure hunt those missed items. I don't really need it but I do hope Nick reruns the PC box cars again and I can pick up the other one. If he doesn't rerun them, it's money left on the table since so far they sell out pretty fast! And they are very cool, unique and prototypical. Over all we have it pretty good.