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Post by stottman on Nov 5, 2017 8:29:40 GMT -8
Budgeting for the arrival of pre-orders that are SET BACK should not be a problem for anyone. If a $240 item has an ETA of 12 months, then you budget to put away $20 per month. If it is delayed a couple of months, I see no big deal about the accumulated money sitting for a while until it arrives. Once decent interst rates return, you could even make a few cents due to the delay! If ETAs were suddenly brought FORWARD I could see THAT as being a potential problem, but not set back. Were not confusing our frustration at the delay with our budgeting, are we? Sounds like it to me. cheers Dave I don't pre-order because things can be fluid with my model RR budget, and I don't want to leave a vendor holding the bag if can't follow through with a purchase. I do budget or earmark budget for items coming out in the future and plan for them. Problem is, sometimes there are items I really want that converge at the same time and compete for that money - which is limited. That's when things often do crunch and you have to let some items go un-purchased. So as you can imagine, and others have mentioned that we are usually playing catch-up when funds become available to purchase items that we didn't have money for when they first came out. That is part of the fluidity issue mentioned above. You mentioned delays; often I look at delays as a good thing because it may free up a months budget or more, to catch up on those items I couldn't afford from a few months ago, or a few years ago. I don't know, but your argument above doesn't really seem to fit my situation well. In the end, I manage as best I can and can't complain too much. Exactly.. Plus I would rather not spend time having to manage Pre-order finances.. That sounds to much like work. |
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Post by grahamline on Nov 5, 2017 8:45:38 GMT -8
I've used three methods over the years for managing my modeling money.
1. Stick $xx into an envelope every month to build up a fund.
2. Using Quicken, allocate $xx to "Model Railroading.
3. Use a dedicated credit card for MR expenses to keep a clear picture of costs and balances.
None of these methods required much effort on my part, other than earning the money in the first place. One fellow I knew manipulated his tax withholding and the refund he engineered became his 'train fund' for the year.
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Nov 5, 2017 9:30:51 GMT -8
I think we may be confusing the health of the hobby of model railroading, as a whole, with the possible failure of how HO scale manufacturers produce locomotives and rolling stock.
If attendance at model railroad shows is any type of barometer of the life expectancy of the hobby, I would say there is more interest now than ever.
I was at the Dayton, Ohio NMRA sponsored show yesterday and I have never seen such crowds. There was, at least, a 30-45 minute wait in line to purchase tickets and enter the facility.
There were all ages in attendance and numerous families with children.
How many of them were there to purchase and how many were there just to see the operating layouts, I don't know? But how many of them were there thinking of getting into the hobby, looking for new ideas or rekindling interest after time away?
Who knows what level of interest...but enough people were there to make feel good about the future of model railroading.
That being said, model railroading is much more than pre-ordering super-detailed HO locomotives and rolling stock. The hobby is bigger than that.
At the show yesterday, there was so much new and used HO, older kits (new and still in box), vintage, garden scale, Lionel 027 and O gauge, N and S scale items for sale. There were boxes of Athearn Genesis, Kato, Atlas Master and Intermountain locomotives and freight cars that some dealers have been bringing to shows for years that just haven't sold...even with substantial discounts.
I've been around long enough to remember when any quality HO gauge locomotives and rolling stock were in kit form or Overland brass. I wish I had a nickel for every Bowser 100 ton coal hopper, LBF Bethgons, Proto 2000 grain car, Athearn locomotive or Walthers 33,000 gallon tank car or auto rack kit I assembled and/or painted/decalled over the years.
If you wanted a super-detailed locomotive or freight car, you built it yourself, paid a custom builder or took out a second mortgage on an Overland brass model.
20 years ago, the doom and gloom talk about $39.00 super-detailed Athearn Genesis and Intermountain grain hoppers being the end of the hobby as we knew it were rampant on model railroad forums and the hobby survived.
The Proto 2000 Heritage steam locomotives were just hitting the market as well as Athearn Genesis and Atlas Master locomotives and many were saying it looked like model railroading would be gone in a few years and look at it now.
That's been 20 years ago and more R-T-R products are being produced than any of us could have dreamed of. If you would have told me in 1998 that you could purchase a ready to run, super-detailed SD 40-2 locomotive, complete with sound and operating ditch lights for $219.00, I would have said you were crazy and the same goes for the Athearn R-T-R Bethgon models or any modern-era freight car from Tangent or Exact Rail.
I, like some, adapted and viewed purchasing a freight car, ready to set on the track, or a super-detailed locomotive complete with sound as not being a negative towards our participation or becoming too lazy in the hobby as a better alternative and allowed us more time to concentrate on building a layout, spending more time on our jobs and living life.
Back to the point of the post...the hobby of model railroading will always be around despite manufacturers demanding pre-ordering of locomotives and rolling stock or else. Those companies, selling HO products, may not be around doing business with that approach but they are owned and managed by very smart business and marketing professionals who will find a way to stay profitable or shut down altogether.
The hobby will survive but companies like Scale Trains has created such an excellent and desirable line of products that you must pre-order or you will never be able to purchase them unless somebody cancels and you are on the waiting list...and they will continue to flourish and prosper with their approach.
Others, who dangle possible new products in front of us and are on waiting lists for years only to find out that particular locomotive or piece of rolling stock has been cancelled due to a lack of interest and will never be produced may be on the short end of the stick.
Who knows...we all may have to go back to assembling rolling stock kits and locomotives if the costs continue to increase in Chinese factories and shipping to the United States takes the prices into the "no longer profitable" range.
I look forward, with great expectation, to what the hobby of model railroading will be in twenty years.
If it's anything at all like the past 20 years, it will be incredible.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 5, 2017 12:35:14 GMT -8
Sounds like we can put a fork in it, once again, until the next post predicting doom and gloom for the hobby.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 12:36:26 GMT -8
I think we may be confusing the health of the hobby of model railroading, as a whole, with the possible failure of how HO scale manufacturers produce locomotives and rolling stock. Yes! |
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Post by sp8234tim on Nov 5, 2017 13:56:32 GMT -8
I am 55 & have been in the hobby for 50 years with my Dad. I belong to 2 clubs in Northern California (Napa & Eastbay) All my loco are programed to the road # with a couple advanced consisted to my property #. I have done quite a bit of programing DCC,I am not an expert on DCC
I don't have a problem with preorders,just preordered McClould #39 SD38-2.
We have to teach new people whether they are kids or growing ups. The kids that are dropped off for a baby sitting service are easy to spot. This seems to be more of on excuse NOT to let kids in from older members but it does happen,or the parent doen't like trains & the kid does,Then someone needs to mentor them. Remember a kid or adult can both wreak the train the same as you.
I do think that the operating (DCC) system needs to be easier to use. I have really lost interest in running trains because of DCC. I have Decoder Pro & done quite of programing (it kinda interest me),Manual notching,speed matching,so I am up to my waist in DCC but hate consisting,Because of DCC I/we run less trains then when on DC because we spend time consisting our units. Part of the problem is I like unit trains & swapping power to run the other way. If you have a home layout with 10 or so engines I would program them 1 through 10 or whatever & it would be easier, but at a club making sure that no one is running the same #
Sound for steam is nice but diesels needs some work. I have not tried ESUs drive hold though but think something like it might help. It seems like the people who like sound don't understand how trains run.
Cost How can a single parent buy a Loco for a Hundred dollars + for Jr? If it weren't for RTR I wouldn't have half of the stuff I have.
I should have added that the factory throttles from the company's are the S%@ts & using a phone to run is MUCH better
Tim
Hanesworth
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 14:14:26 GMT -8
Tim, DCC is a protocol. And a good one at that. What you are describing is the usability of your command system. I'd look into using a phone as a throttle instead of a digital or NEC throttle, as the phone is much easier to use and the functions can be labeled
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 5, 2017 14:30:09 GMT -8
Sound for steam is nice but diesels needs some work. Really? Sound coming out of the tender is "nice"? Not 'round here. Ed |
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Post by carrman on Nov 5, 2017 16:44:30 GMT -8
As far as letting children join, if the parents aren't going to stick around to handle their offspring, then the kids don't need to join. I didn't become a member of my club to have tolerate or mentor someone's kid. Not my cup of tea.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Nov 5, 2017 20:35:56 GMT -8
Tim,
It's not a matter of trusting the kids not to wreck trains. I've seen some pretty good youth engineers who are far better at running trains than some of our retired members. The issue is safety, responsibility and commitment. One whiff of scandal will get most clubs shut down especially if they're in a town-owned building, and all it would take is a kid or parent to say something happened and poof goes the club. Then it's about who is responsible for the kid if the parent is away; if something happens, who does what? The kid trips and falls, or breaks a train, or cuts himself, what happens? If the kid acts up, can the members say something without the parent storming in and screaming at the members for "yelling" at their kid? And commitment from the members is required; if the kid is dropped off, the members have to be there until he gets picked up. They also have to be there every night the kids show up regardless of real life(tm). Many club members aren't willing to do that. They're lucky to get down to the club once a week as it is.
About DCC consisting...if you're using Advanced Consisting, why can't you just select a different address in the consist to run the MU? I thought one could program all that kind of info into an Advanced Consist so that you could run it from any loco in the consist? I dunno because I use Digitrax and generally don't use Advanced Consisting (we use Universal Consisting).
I would like to point out that you're making DCC far more complicated than DC. Manual notching, speed matching, etc. These are things that can't be done on DC. So are you willing to sacrifice all that extra utility for less button pushing?
To make sure no one duplicates addresses are our club, every member signs up for a block of 100 numbers. For example, my numbers are 3300 to 3399. I generally use the last two digits of my locos for half the address, so NH GP9 #1229 is DCC #3329. For those who have more than 100 locos, they can sign up for another 100 numbers. We have 65 members and over 1800 locos on our roster, and this system works well for us. The individual member is responsible for maintaining their own list of addresses. I print them blank lists so they can keep track.
Improving sound for diesels isn't that hard. Just put in some momentum (CV03), a boat load of coasting (CV04), and set the throttle for 14 speed steps. It also helps to have a sound decoder with a brake feature (like the original QSI). When I run this way, I use the buttons to "notch" up and down quickly while the CV03 and CV04 smoothes out the loco drive. Then using the brake, I can stop within a reasonable length. It's quite realistic when done correctly.
Personally, I think a cell phone makes a lousy throttle. I prefer 1-handed throttles because my other hand usually has car cards, a uncoupling skewer, or a switch list in it. But, YMMV.
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Post by tdspeedracer on Nov 5, 2017 21:18:35 GMT -8
If they are waiting for me to pre-order something, the hobby will surely die. I work retail, and I'm not going pre order something and stick my hobby shop with it because of manufacturer short comings. I tried it a couple times, and wasn't happy with the results. I'll continue to wait until I see it, and if it never happens... Oh well.
I agree on the shaming. Many people in this hobby have just as much fun or more playing with stuff that others would consider junk.
In my mind the greatest threat to the hobby is attrition. Next time you get to a train show try and keep a rough count of the age demographic.
Trevor
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Post by peoriaman on Nov 6, 2017 4:29:23 GMT -8
As far as letting children join, if the parents aren't going to stick around to handle their offspring, then the kids don't need to join. I didn't become a member of my club to have tolerate or mentor someone's kid. Not my cup of tea. There is one kid in particular that drove away more than a few members at my former club. Dad would drop him off and then leave for a few hours, then take him home. Or he'd sit and read and totally ignore the kid while we tried to tolerate what in less-PC times was called brattiness. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 6, 2017 8:00:19 GMT -8
If the kid was misbehaving, why did not "management" tell him to leave or shape up? Especially if members were being driven away?
The only kid who MIGHT have wanted into my old club was the equal, as far as I could see during an informal interview, of anyone in our club, both as a modeler and behavior-wise. THAT was the point of the interview. And getting new members, too; which really would have been nice.
Unfortunately, he didn't.
Yeah, I know, we all woulda been thrown in jail for 20 years if he stubbed his toe. Modern times.
Oh, yeah. I was the club president and, consequently, the membership committee.
(membership sentiment and election process: OK, frogmouth--if you're so smart, YOU'RE president)
(small club)
(and somewhat informal)
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Nov 6, 2017 8:04:12 GMT -8
Jim, And sometimes, the money just isn't there no matter how good one budgets or how much one thinks he needs it. You also talked about missing the the PC boxcar; I know that feeling. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN Well, speaking of the Moloco PC box car and lack of funds, and expected items being delayed... I had been waiting on some items from Intermountain which I earmarked my November budget; they were scheduled for deliver this month and have now been delayed until next spring. As it was the PC box car I didn't yet have showed out of stock for the last couple days so thought oh well. But with the delayed budgeted items, and managed to sell a 5-pack of coal cars that were out of my time frame, funds were free'd up and suddenly today the Moloco PC box car shows in stock again. I contacted Nick and ordered one. Hurray. |
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Post by bn4180 on Nov 6, 2017 8:20:48 GMT -8
Mr. Wright,
I agree with you completely about the manners/respect for your fellow man, part of your latest video. This is something all of us would do better in person, so why not do it when we are behind the good old keyboard?
The first part of the video commentary takes quite a "Nostradamus meets chicken little" like turn that I find it a bit disturbing. "I can see the future, and it's all bad".
Manufactures have to use the pre-order system, it's what the accountants want. Things are just that simple.
Advising people to"work" the pre-order system without planning on making a purchase is irresponsible. It doesn't help anyone, in fact it hurts us all.
Respectfully submitted,
Tom Bacarella
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Post by riogrande on Nov 6, 2017 9:24:50 GMT -8
Tom, much agreed. We participate in a hobby which has a large percentage of older men, some can be on the grumpy side (weren't there several movies about grumpy old men some years back? LOL) But it's a good thing for us to encourage each other to be kind and courteous and it can be contagious and propagate!
I do agree with Edward that the title is a bit over dramatic, perhaps it was an intentional "hook" to poke readers and s tir interest. A year or two ago, the hobby dying topic even reached a point here were it became an issue of constant negativity that was getting unwelcome and casting a pall over the forums for a while. It is a oft recurring theme in a couple other forums as well, and gets pretty tiresome. I realize there are some, including James, who are "relatively" new to the hobby compared to many of us so they haven't yet reached a point of weariness as some of us forum veterans.
My wife and I did watch about 2/3rds of James's video a couple days ago but got to talking and never finished it. That's the problem with video's for me, you have to stop and take time to watch them, and if the internet is laggy I sometimes don't even bother trying. It is just more convenient and faster to read much of the time - although I know James likes to be behind the camera - just a gentle suggestion.
I do see both sides to the pre-order argument but prefer to err on the side of not being irresponsible or wearing out my welcome with a vendor. Yes, if you don't pre-order in some cases, like Intermountain or maybe Walthers, and there is no hard commitment, sure I can do that if I can take the time to figure out how to do that online. There are some items that I do want that either get cancelled or put off for another year. I don't have any LHS's to do that and as others have said, I don't want to order from an LHS or vendor and have to cancel if my fluid budget hit's a traffic jam that month.
Anyway, Tom, all very good points. Well said.
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Post by peoriaman on Nov 6, 2017 11:08:38 GMT -8
If the kid was misbehaving, why did not "management" tell him to leave or shape up? Especially if members were being driven away? Because one of the club officers had a kid of his own with the same issues, just not as severe. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 6, 2017 13:08:07 GMT -8
Sounds like "bad" "management".
Ed
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Post by selector on Nov 6, 2017 13:24:12 GMT -8
Remember that old aphorism, "Time devours all things." It also changes them first. As those sweet on steam die off, and many times fewer replace them, and as diesels capture the imagination of younger people with a few extra bucks to spend, the hobby will inevitably take on that flavor. If it changes in a way that people can adapt to, things go well. If not, not so well.
The hobby will always be about discretionary income. After tax, and after recurring and unforeseen obligations. While I and many would be sad to see the demise of our hobby, and it's no sure thing, if it does disappear, something else will take its place. Trust me on this, our penchant for novelty and for spending money on 'neat stuff' will never dry up. How many cell phones have you owned in the past decade? Are other hobbies doing okay? Sure, but they're also changing and adapting to changes.
Those who offer to make stuff for us and to import it have to at least break even. If the hobby really is getting thin, I would completely understand why they want a reasonably accurate indication of interest before they offer to pony up $140K for engineering, tooling, assembly, and then shipping of several hundreds of items meant for those with some discretionary income.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 6, 2017 14:18:00 GMT -8
Probably 4 cell phones. I had the same LG flip phone for about 6 years (2004-2010) then a cheap texting phone for 2 then it broke, then a cheap Nokia Lumia for one year, it broke, and now I have an $85 Android for the last year or so. (my wife used my old LG flip pone another 2, before we finally realized we could get a pay-as-you-go plan and cut the Verizon cord - and got two $50 Nokia Lumia Windows 8 smart phones. We were paying $85/mo for two phone plan and with the pay-as-you-go pland we probably spend half that because with our cheap smart phones we can use wi-fi when at home and work calling out with Skype or WhatsApp. Everyone has their poison. Some drive around in big expensive gas eating trucks around here, but I choose to drive a Prius and get 55 mpg and the money I save helps me have a model train budget every month. So I"m doing my part to keep the model gravy train rolling along. What with all of the supposed negative things/influences/changes/possible dark future, somehow right now we have the best selection of model train products then ever before in the history of the hobby. Doom and gloom according to some seems to be always lurking around the corner; I'm not sure what purpose preaching it brings. I prefer to enjoy the blessings we have and try not to wring my hands about it. Remember, Model Railroading is Fun! Also listen to Oddball:  |
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Post by grahamline on Nov 6, 2017 14:55:00 GMT -8
The only thing that will kill the hobby is all model railroading activity moving exclusively to endless loops on online discussion groups -- nobody will be buying or building models.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 15:20:03 GMT -8
I cannot defend letting a spoiled brat participate while dad does absolutely nothing...
BUT
a relatively "large" local train club, at least local to me, made it very clear that my exceptionally well-behaved child was not welcome at all. My kid is not a spoiled brat, and opted for other pursuits far away from model railroading. Because this "name" club, that some of you would likely recognize, made it clear that he and I were unwelcome, well, my son chose other pursuits, and I didn't bother joining because I couldn't participate WITH my son. That was a loss for the future of model railroading.
I'm sure there are others like me whose kids might have liked to participate in a model railroading club.
My son (now 16) is always among the best behaved kids on his sports teams, and some coaches have said he is simply the nicest kid they ever met. Model Railroading's loss is somebody else's gain.
Said local train club with a big name appears to be on hard times...with the irascible old men who are there, it does not surprise me one bit.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 6, 2017 15:38:37 GMT -8
RI, what about the liability issues? Is there another side of the story before you throw whoever it is club under the bus? Also, there are plenty of kids who may be exposed to trains, and in the end, just don't get the bug. My sisters son was into trains as a kid for a while, and so far it appears to have been a phase. He is grown up now and no sign of train interest. So it may be convenient to blame a club that your son isn't joining the fraternity but it may have not made a difference either. In the end, blaming others seems to be an easy thing for many when it comes to thing people are disgruntled about but in the end, what good does it do?
Unfortunately, as we all know, clubs are social institutions and among many groups of people there are socially dysfunctional people which is why clubs are a difficult thing to run and when one does run well, it's a good thing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 16:21:21 GMT -8
It's occurred to me, that one of the reasons I don't pre-order often is because often times there's just not enough information to base my pre-order off of. Features such as lighting functions aren't listed, or are listed wrong. In MTH's case, their H10s has cab figures listed, and my class J is marketed as having a cab light, but in reality they have neither. In Intermountain's case, maybe they will have a strong motor, but I'll wait to order a dash-9 until I can see a review. I'm waiting for the Atlas AEM7, but my gut is that the Phase V isn't going to have ditch lights, despite all Phase V's in real life having ditch lights. And Athearn lost a pre-order because their AC44C6M has a low headlight in the promo materials. Maybe it'll be a high headlight but since they're not confirming either way, I'm not pre-ordering.
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Nov 6, 2017 16:33:35 GMT -8
The only thing that will kill the hobby is all model railroading activity moving exclusively to endless loops on online discussion groups -- nobody will be buying or building models. Excellent point... I am in the process of moving into a new place that gives me a 50 x 37 area for nothing but trains. Benchwork is 1/3rd complete and the major track plan was just finalized and estimated time of completion is 5 years but I am in that phase now with more time spent at the lumber yard than hobby shop and tools of choice are a 360 degree laser level, square, power miter saw, cordless drills and hundreds of drywall screws. As we all know...without a solid foundation, the finest HO models will constantly derail. All of my pre-ordered Scale Trains SD 40-3's, ET44AH's, Atlas Bombardier ALP 45 and other new purchases will have a nice place to run over #10 Shinohara turnouts and numerous Cornerstone bridges and in and around several passenger depots, industries and other structures.
It's still a fun hobby for me and certainly a relaxing escape from the rigors of the business world. When I have trains running, several parents want to bring the children in for a look see....and hopefully some of them will decide to build their own layout. |
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Post by selector on Nov 6, 2017 17:33:53 GMT -8
To me, we should all accept the responsibility of making our way in any endeavor the way it lights our fire. If we're unhappy, we should figure out why and try to change what we can. If RTR/pre-order is not working for us, we must find other ways to find that elusive happiness. I boils down to getting support for another subscription with an importer willing to work with you, or....................building your own.
Nobody owes us anything in this hobby. We are fickle clients who plunk our bucks down where we think we'll come out on top. The importers should feel absolutely free, and justified for the same reasons, for doing the exactly the same thing...put their bucks where they get the best fire. Whinging and wringing one's hands don't correct the problem. They don't seem to come here and complain about their straying customers.
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Post by tdspeedracer on Nov 6, 2017 17:40:20 GMT -8
I pity the fool that tells me my kids aren't welcome at the layout. I am with them always when they are at the layout, and watch them like a hawk. They know what they are allowed to do, and what behavior I expect of them while they are there. If I feel that they aren't following suit, we go for a walk and talk about it.
Almost 30 years ago I joined a group that accepted the fact I was a kid, and while I'm sure I made a few of them nervous at first, I like to think that I made myself worth their while. Much of what I learned from them early on, I have turned around and put back into the layout and other things.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 6, 2017 17:56:49 GMT -8
I pity the fool that tells me my kids aren't welcome at the layout. I am with them always when they are at the layout, and watch them like a hawk. I'm sure your kids are wonderful. Most parents, to be fair, say the exact same thing about their own. But club officials don't know your kids and quite possibly may have had some bad experiences which give them pause. You know my wife works as a nanny and the neighbor has a dog, he says is nice and would never hurt anyone. Turns out he has bit 3 kids in the neighborhood, one twice. Anyway, many like to demonize clubs, and maybe some deserve it, but some of them may have a lot of their own money and time invested and are msybe risk averse. I would be. It always helps to try to see all sides of the equation before putting people on trial. Btw, I've had my own bad experince with a club as an adult so generally have stayed away from them. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 6, 2017 18:15:22 GMT -8
I tend to think the steep rise in prices is what hurts it the most. Especially when you can go to almost any show and find people dumping things for next to nothing. Often I can buy that stuff and flip it and come out ahead while my new inventory just sits there. A guy sold off all his HO shipping containers at Syracuse for $2 each - he sold out by mid-day Sunday. At another table I bought the old Tyco "Pepsi" boxcar - used to be that was one of the more valuable ones - and that $2 buy I did turn for $10 later in the day. The guy I got it from had a whole pile of cars for $2 a shot, some even with Kadees.
The only locomotive I sold was an ancient AHM GP18 that I built using a mint dummy unit and the guts from a $2 junker, for a whopping $20. Which is about what my average sale runs, $20. The guys who buy those won't buy $30 and $40 freight cars - until you die and your heirs sell them for $10 a shot. Probably to guys like me who will flip half of them for $20 a shot to guys who think 50% of the original price is a great deal.
Or maybe not, a lot of good deals went home at the end of the day.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 6, 2017 18:43:39 GMT -8
The steep rise in prices is likely going to affect people to a greater degree where the economy is depressed. If there is overall less disposable income, modelers will have a harder time affording those higher prices. There will be more pressure to sell items which are new on the market for less of a discount (something I observed at that show yearly). Also, with slow sales at a train show, sellers will be more likely to dump things for very cheap.
I strongly suspect that the depressed economy of central NY has had a profound effect on the characteristics of the Great New York State Model Train Fair (at the NY State Fair Grounds). Having lived in different parts of the country, then lived in Syracuse from 1994 to 2009, I watched the economy slowly implode there and then, like many others struggling to have a decent standard of living and finding steady employment, I was forced to leave the area. The consulting firm I worked for shrunk and I was laid off after several of my co-workers were let go as our division was cut in half. GM Fisher Guide shut down, Electronics Parkway is a ghost of its former self, Carrier closed, didnt New Pocess Gear also? The old Penn-Can mall did so bad it's all converted into car dealerships now.
Since my daughter was still up there while finishing college at U of R, I made yearly visits as recently as a year ago. During visits over the last five or so years, I would stay at hotels at Carrier Circle and noticed restaurants and businesses all boarded up every where. Things in the area visibly were in a state of major decay and blight. The Carousel Mall, redubbed Destiny USA has cut back the grand plans to be the biggest mall in the US, and will be a boondoggle what with malls closing at a rapid pace across the country. The city took so long negotiating tax deals with the mall developer that delays pushed it too late to be an ecomonic boost the city sorely needed.
This is the environment that the Syracuse train show is operating in and it sure seemed visible by what I saw before leaving the area. It cant help but be a drag on the train show, and it was.
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