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Post by tony on Nov 6, 2017 19:31:49 GMT -8
I have to disagree on the first one. Pre-ordering helps model making companies themselves. Given the design quality problems, color problems, assembly problems that we have seen from China there are many people that refuse to pre-order again and that certainly includes me. We need it this way because we can not let manufacturers that are clueless or careless about quality sell us chicken feed type product expecting to be assured upfront of financial success. That's a very communistic approach. This is America and poor quality manufacturers just need to die out and go out of business. That's the American Way!
If you think pre-ordering is a way to gauge "customer interest" then it's too late in the product management life cycle - at least for me. Because I want to see and know what colors, road numbers, paint scheme, dates, stenciling detail, printing details, painting details, etc... I like the ability to provide input and know what to expect in the resulting product. If I can't do that then I'll just wait and see with no worries and no regrets. Just when you think you missed a model you wanted, the next day there can be a new announcement that you never expected that you might want never more. No need to cry.
I do like your second suggestion, encouragement. This is very important.
I think my top themes are :
a.) communication - individuals, clubs, manufacturers, MRR hobby industry needs to continue to communicate and promote the hobby, benefits, fun, education aspects, learning offered in model railroad as hobby;
b.) challenges - the ability for kids new to the hobby to explore, develop skills and be rewarded with recognition of some type;
c.) accessibility - the ability to have a layout either at the family home or at a local club layout without fear of failure or criticism.
I think the hobby will survive and change. China as we know it today as the train mfg center will likely and hopefully disappear. (MAGA) Any individual will be able to be their own manufacturer. Want a new model? - download it and 3D print it. 3D printing will achieve surface quality comparable with injection molding. There is a huge paradigm shift coming and I'm Luv'n It.
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Post by jlwii2000 on Nov 6, 2017 19:48:23 GMT -8
Mr. Wright, I agree with you completely about the manners/respect for your fellow man, part of your latest video. This is something all of us would do better in person, so why not do it when we are behind the good old keyboard? The first part of the video commentary takes quite a "Nostradamus meets chicken little" like turn that I find it a bit disturbing. "I can see the future, and it's all bad". Manufactures have to use the pre-order system, it's what the accountants want. Things are just that simple. Advising people to"work" the pre-order system without planning on making a purchase is irresponsible. It doesn't help anyone, in fact it hurts us all. Respectfully submitted, Tom Bacarella Hello Tom, In the beginning of the video I stated the hobby is going strong, but contributing to hurting it would be pre orders or not encouraging people. I wasn't suggesting people work the pre order system, just not to sweat placing the order because if a life changing event comes up or a large financial crisis they could cancel and not still be obligated. The cancellation I suggested wasn't intended to be something widely used/abused. Thanks for the comment. |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 7, 2017 5:29:47 GMT -8
James,
If I may, putting a phrase in the title "the hobby could die" had the effect of setting my teeth on edge and quite possibly put a negative bias onto the presentation from the start for many of us. I don't know if it was meant to be a "hook" or bait, to get forum members to watch the video, but it may have had unintended consequences regarding how some "read" your discussion related to pre-ordering, and perhaps taking it in a way you didn't intend. Indeed, content in this topics seems to reflect that.
After all the discussion, and perhaps some consternation along the way, I have been given some food for thought when it comes to pre-order as a communicate to companies what I am interested in buying. The trick for me is how can I do that? I need to be fed with a spoon - or it will probably fall by the way side what with the business of life and all the other distractions I have. I would like Athearn to know I would like an SDP40F for the San Francisco Zephyr - but in 3 announcements nothing. I would like Intermountain to know I would like certain freight cars - as I watch them get delayed 6 months here or 6 months. If I can communicate this in a formal way, it would be a good thing.
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Post by sd80mac on Nov 7, 2017 6:39:02 GMT -8
I cannot defend letting a spoiled brat participate while dad does absolutely nothing...
BUT
a relatively "large" local train club, at least local to me, made it very clear that my exceptionally well-behaved child was not welcome at all. My kid is not a spoiled brat, and opted for other pursuits far away from model railroading. Because this "name" club, that some of you would likely recognize, made it clear that he and I were unwelcome, well, my son chose other pursuits, and I didn't bother joining because I couldn't participate WITH my son. That was a loss for the future of model railroading.
I'm sure there are others like me whose kids might have liked to participate in a model railroading club.
My son (now 16) is always among the best behaved kids on his sports teams, and some coaches have said he is simply the nicest kid they ever met. Model Railroading's loss is somebody else's gain.
Said local train club with a big name appears to be on hard times...with the irascible old men who are there, it does not surprise me one bit.
That is sad to hear. At our club, we will accept junior members as young as 10 years old. HOWEVER, we do require a parent to join as well, and be present when the junior member is at the club until at least age 14-15. After that, they can come alone, but only when other members are already at the club, as junior members (under 18) are not allowed access to the layout until they become regular full members. This system seems to have worked fine for us. |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 7, 2017 7:07:29 GMT -8
sd80mac, It seems like your club has reasonable rules with regard to youngsters.
Children and clubs will probably always be a point of contentions with some. My wife is a nanny and presently looks after a mixed family with 5 kids ranging from 5 to 12. Three boys are from the mothers previous marriage and one of the boys is from the fathers, and a little girl them together. Out of the four boys, at 3 are ADHD, and with the parents constantly out of town, and tired when they get home (DOD contractors), things really go to pot. They take the ADHD off of meds if they aren't in school they are up late and can be difficult to manage. I think if my wife wasn't there using old school firmness and injecting her Geordie humor, things would go totally south there. One of them has some sort of defiance of authority disorder and is an absolute awful kid, destroys the others toys, winds them up and causes havoc when he is there and not at his mothers.
The above is probably not typical but growing up, I never heard of ADHD and now it seems as common as water every time you turn around. OTOH, most parents think the sun shines out of their children's behinds and quite often by standers would beg to differ on that assessment. Giving the benefit of the doubt, there are a few shining stars out there where parents do actually care, engage and invest themselves into their kids, in such a way as they will be well behaved.
Now from a clubs standpoint, many have probably seen things I have seen over 30 or 40 years and are, lets say, cautious. You definitely have to have some sort of organized control to minimize liability to the club in terms of harm, law suites, and damage to expensive equipment. Add to that, clubs are social institutions by nature and often, just like in companies, leaders, presidents, bosses, are often NOT people persons. Just like train shows, I guess clubs are like a box of chocolates; some are tasty and good, and some you get coconut!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 8:25:38 GMT -8
Mr. Wright, I agree with you completely about the manners/respect for your fellow man, part of your latest video. This is something all of us would do better in person, so why not do it when we are behind the good old keyboard? The first part of the video commentary takes quite a "Nostradamus meets chicken little" like turn that I find it a bit disturbing. "I can see the future, and it's all bad". Manufactures have to use the pre-order system, it's what the accountants want. Things are just that simple. Advising people to"work" the pre-order system without planning on making a purchase is irresponsible. It doesn't help anyone, in fact it hurts us all. Respectfully submitted, I Tom Bacarella Hello Tom, In the beginning of the video I stated the hobby is going strong, but contributing to hurting it would be pre orders or not encouraging people. I wasn't suggesting people work the pre order system, just not to sweat placing the order because if a life changing event comes up or a large financial crisis they could cancel and not still be obligated. The cancellation I suggested wasn't intended to be something widely used/abused. Thanks for the comment. James: You should make that clear in the video...or add some text to it, IMO...to clarify what you are talking about...It would not be good to either the hobby dealer or the manufacturer to have a bunch of faux pre-orders. This would give them false interest markers to where they might even set up a second run of the product to ensure they can make more...it would throw the whole thing out of whack... I think people look at several factors with regards to pre-orders. Cost is certainly a factor that determines if the item is affordable at all; and if so, how many? Then the track record of company in regards to quality control and assembly (if the subject is an RTR model), as well as the track record on accuracy. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 10:25:53 GMT -8
RI, what about the liability issues? Is there another side of the story before you throw whoever it is club under the bus? Also, there are plenty of kids who may be exposed to trains, and in the end, just don't get the bug. My sisters son was into trains as a kid for a while, and so far it appears to have been a phase. He is grown up now and no sign of train interest. So it may be convenient to blame a club that your son isn't joining the fraternity but it may have not made a difference either. In the end, blaming others seems to be an easy thing for many when it comes to thing people are disgruntled about but in the end, what good does it do? Unfortunately, as we all know, clubs are social institutions and among many groups of people there are socially dysfunctional people which is why clubs are a difficult thing to run and when one does run well, it's a good thing. RioGrande--
Liability? I'm talking about me being there right with my sons at the same time, not me dropping them off and taking off? How is that any more liability than you have at any playground, baseball field or soccer field? Both my boys were very interested in trains when they were small. Also, pressures from teachers at school, who specifically teach that model trains are for babies (in my local school district) do not help.
I didn't specifically name the club, as much as I might like to, for various reasons--so how have I thrown anyone under the bus here??
My one point is that if you do not allow kids under 12 to participate, forget it, game OVER--they will NOT magically wait until age 13 to join--they will find another hobby entirely. Today's kids are NOT going to wait around to join a club "someday" when they are "old enough" to meet whatever standard is set by a bunch of irascible old men. I actually believe that is why that particular "named" local club is dying. Their policies are killing off the "future" "would be" members.
I do firmly believe that those clubs who are so paranoid that perhaps their personally owned highly prized toys might get damaged need to get a life. If you are that worried about your prized locomotive, then simply don't take it to a club! I have seen many would be or once were highly valuable brass diesels seriously marred by improper handling. Most idiots pick them up by squeezing the handrails which bends the handrails and eventually breaks the solder joints. Many brass diesels on the secondary market evidence this kind of damage. If one is not able to pick up somebody's model correctly without doing that, then maybe one shouldn't touch it at all--but that's another discussion entirely.
If you don't let kids play with and gasp, actually touch, the trains, they will lose interest and find another hobby. The founder of what is today Bowser was very fond of saying that to anyone who would listen. He at least knew something about selling this hobby, and certainly about selling trains.
My boys age 11 and 16 are better at handling highly detailed model trains than most adults, because they have been taught how to handle them correctly and respectfully.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 7, 2017 10:36:26 GMT -8
RI, honestly, I can't speak for any of the clubs - it's clear enough some just don't want to go there. In the end, the world is often an unfair place. I sense a lot of bitterness that probably would do to let go of. I'm only making the general observation that clubs in general ARE social institutions and often have socially inept people. All you can do is try; if it doesn't work out, it's best to let go of bad feelings and move on. I've been there a few times, and don't see the point it letting it raise my blood pressure or get angry about it. Eventually we have to build a bridge and move on from those bad experiences and enjoy the hobby on our own terms. Often that's why there are loan wolf modelers. But it may not have to be that way indefinitely. (btw, my name is Jim - it's in my signature.)
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 7, 2017 19:15:19 GMT -8
Here again, I've actually sold at that show for about 10 years, and kept track. Some years are up and some are down but the average is about the same. This year just happened to be down.
I mean I set up at a car show swap meet in the fall 30 miles outside of town and that was up by about double over what I usually average. You never really know what's going to happen at a particular event.
However, it's rare anyone spends more than about $20 at a time at a hobby show. I don't know how some of these guys make any money. I'm slowly switching my show stock over to detail parts and small structures and things I see no one else carrying because I sell a lot of those things. Locomotives end up selling on the internet.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 10:17:58 GMT -8
Jim--
The thread is about how the hobby could die. Someone else posted an opposing viewpoint that I very strongly disagreed with, based upon my actual experiences. My bp is just fine on this issue. I decided to never again set foot in said club for their Christmas Open House or at any other time. People all the time tell me I should go see their layout...really, um, no thank you very much. This is specifically how some of us come to be "lone wolf" modelers.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 8, 2017 11:10:39 GMT -8
RI, topic has wandered a bit that's for sure. I guess we all have places we don't want to revisit, myself included. Onward and upward!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 20:51:47 GMT -8
Sorry if my tone above was too harsh...
I am fine with pre-ordering. It is going to be the only way in the future, to get stuff.
I may not like it, but so what it is not up to me.
If/when I get something I don't like, it is usually easy to move it on Ebay especially as long as it is brand new in box.
There is always somebody who wants the item more than me, lol.
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Post by roadkill on Nov 9, 2017 8:17:03 GMT -8
I've never preordered until just recently when I preordered a B&O ex-ATSF rebuilt RDC1 thru Factory Direct Trains. That's one model I just don't want to take any chances of missing.
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Post by jonklein611 on Nov 9, 2017 9:04:52 GMT -8
I've never preordered until just recently when I preordered a B&O ex-ATSF rebuilt RDC1 thru Factory Direct Trains. That's one model I just don't want to take any chances of missing. Anything Rapido, I preorder. Simply because I know I want it, and I don't want any questions as to if I'll find one. Missed out on the Original Canadian and Turbo Train runs because of that. Won't let that happen again. |
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Post by bncascadegreen on Nov 9, 2017 9:45:50 GMT -8
Are you seriously kidding James??? 😂
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Post by jlwii2000 on Nov 9, 2017 15:51:23 GMT -8
Are you seriously kidding James??? 😂 All the talk about the hobby dying so I thought I would chime in with my thoughts...but like I said in the video, it's not dying but those things could kill it if the hobby were ever on life support. Discouragement can slow/stop newcomers and failure to pre order can cause manufacturers to slow production. It's not too far fetched in thought. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 20:19:42 GMT -8
Look, I completely grasp the production quality failures with much of the Chinese product. I altered my purchasing because the quality control is so bad on diesels from at least 4 different importers. Handrail issues are ongoing and not improved with the latest product runs, but are actually worse in some cases. There are diesels I would really really want to buy, just to have one model of a given prototype, and I just today looked at many, and couldnt find a single unit good enough to buy. I was sad.
This is also why I now prefer HO steam, along with certain F units that have metal handrails and a high percentage of metal detail parts. Most of the recent HO steam at least has metal handrails.
I have missed out on models I did not preorder. It is as simple as that. Some of the higher demand models will be gone from dealer inventory if I do not preorder. That is not my personal preference, but is just the way it is.
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Post by Dear Leader on Nov 9, 2017 20:22:38 GMT -8
The only thing dying in this hobby is model railroaders. This topic surface's every now and then. This topic should die. The hobby is thriving, but is more specialized now. I think people just get bored and have to stir things up.
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Post by TBird1958 on Nov 10, 2017 7:23:32 GMT -8
The only thing dying in this hobby is model railroaders. This topic surface's every now and then. This topic should die. The hobby is thriving, but is more specialized now. I think people just get bored and have to stir things up. Plus 1, I've never enjoyed it more than I am right now, what I want is the time to spend at the modeling desk. Less time at the computer is a good thing. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Nov 10, 2017 12:39:37 GMT -8
Less time at the computer is a good thing. Indeed. |
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Post by GP40P-2 on Nov 10, 2017 13:11:43 GMT -8
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Post by bar on Nov 10, 2017 13:20:42 GMT -8
Because the original poster has a $take in HO.
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Post by Brakie on Nov 10, 2017 14:08:22 GMT -8
Guys,If I may give a far fetch view?
Let's say nobody preordered for any and all reasons I doubt if the hobby would dry up overnight or the foreseeable future. I do think this would force the manufactures to rethink their business method and what that method would be who can say?
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Post by steveturner on Nov 10, 2017 14:39:40 GMT -8
The hobby will never die, not fake news. There is enough stuff on E Bay etc etc and HOSwap to keep the hobby going for light years .MFGs might die and that's their doing because of the way they do business and shove their MFG rules down our mouths. Nothing ,nothing is pre ordered in my house so why should model train stuff be pre ordered. Pre order is being forced on the MR hobbyist whether they like it or not. MFG seem to forget who the customer is. I also would never stick my dealer or a dealer with a preorder, if in fact I did preorder I would live up to my commitment. Order and cancel not an option!!!!. Also I purchase when and while I have disposable cash...............so I order a loco tobe here in 9 months to a years time ,thinking about having the cash then bothers me. Preorder is no way to enjoy the hobby. No the hobby will not die just because of pre order. Steve
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 16:21:58 GMT -8
steveturner
So easy to say when YOU are not the one having to run the monthly line of credit with a bank to PAY for items held in inventory. Some importers are running credit lines into the millions of dollars...so you are being a bit hard on them.
Newsflash: Banks have tightened up their lending practices considerably since the 1980's, when massive production runs of Proto 2000 cabooses and diesels lingered in distributor/dealer inventories for years before final blowouts.
The next time you wonder why your local dealer doesn't have (fill in the blank item) in stock, it might just be true that he or the distributor (or both) couldn't afford to PAY bank interest for items to sit around on the shelf unsold.
Studies have shown that anything that doesn't sell within 3 weeks of arrival in the US is pretty much "dead inventory" that will be difficult to sell, ever. Yesterday's retail sales paradigm is just simply over. Those days are gone.
All those one of a kind Heritage paint scheme locomotives are sales GOLD for the LHS; they perform much better than other items...pity there's not more Heritage Units from other roads.
Since I'm on Ebay all the time, I can attest that not everything actually shows up. Some things never do, at any price, because they are just plain gone from the marketplace. Not everybody may need an Atlas NdeM C-424, but good luck finding one anywhere at any price. Other roadnames may show up, but that doesn't mean the condition is acceptable, either.
You are certainly free to continue finding stuff at shows and swap meets and internet "yard sales". It's your railroad. |
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Post by Brakie on Nov 11, 2017 2:14:04 GMT -8
RI 2695,Maybe Mom and Pop can't afford the monthly order quota and the manufacturer drops them like a hot potato or perhaps they choose the direct order method cutting Mom and Pop out of the loop..
Of course there are on line shops and e-Bay that offers the newest releases for those that don't want to preorder and then wait for months/years to get their order---if its not canceled in the process.
For Mom and Pop preorders can be a high risk because a modeler can refuse to buy the model because a minor detail part is missing, wrong font, wrong paint, poor QC or the modeler fell on hard times and that killed the hobby budget or the modeler plum quit the hobby long before the model was released.
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Post by bnsf971 on Nov 11, 2017 3:57:46 GMT -8
RI 2695,Maybe Mom and Pop can't afford the monthly order quota and the manufacturer drops them like a hot potato or perhaps they choose the direct order method cutting Mom and Pop out of the loop.. Of course there are on line shops and e-Bay that offers the newest releases for those that don't want to preorder and then wait for months/years to get their order---if its not canceled in the process. For Mom and Pop preorders can be a high risk because a modeler can refuse to buy the model because a minor detail part is missing, wrong font, wrong paint, poor QC or the modeler fell on hard times and that killed the hobby budget or the modeler plum quit the hobby long before the model was released. Or maybe the modeler simply died. It does happen, and more than we like to think about. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 5:45:18 GMT -8
The bigger online dealers can no longer be trusted to get everything for all the reasons cited above. There are less and less speculative sellers on Ebay.
For example I wanted an expensive Genesis early version UP challenger, never made except in brass. Anyone who wants a specific version, of which there are at least 8, is out of luck now. Horizon reports full reservations, at least on the 3 I was looking for.
On that expensive item it would be most unwise to think that all 8 or 10 versions will make it to MBK website or to Ebay.
I was able to get one slot and am locked in at a good price, better than what would be offered on Ebay.
How about a Rapido Lehigh Valley FA2? I doubt very many are not already spoken for prior to arrival. If they make it to the MBK website at all, it wont be for very long.
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Post by bluedash2 on Nov 11, 2017 7:06:15 GMT -8
RI 2695,Maybe Mom and Pop can't afford the monthly order quota and the manufacturer drops them like a hot potato or perhaps they choose the direct order method cutting Mom and Pop out of the loop.. Of course there are on line shops and e-Bay that offers the newest releases for those that don't want to preorder and then wait for months/years to get their order---if its not canceled in the process. For Mom and Pop preorders can be a high risk because a modeler can refuse to buy the model because a minor detail part is missing, wrong font, wrong paint, poor QC or the modeler fell on hard times and that killed the hobby budget or the modeler plum quit the hobby long before the model was released. Or maybe the modeler simply died. It does happen, and more than we like to think about. I am lucky to be only 15min from the only (and good) LHS in my area and I can tell you that has happened a LOT sadly. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Nov 11, 2017 7:33:20 GMT -8
Or maybe the modeler simply died. It does happen, and more than we like to think about. We had that happen to a group of us that belong to a small forum, the go-to dealer for many on the forum passed away leaving several folks with lost $$ due to "trust" he'd built up and they had 'invested' in pre-orders with cash up front. His relatives were not too cooperative as they didn't know anything about what he had going business wise. |
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