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Post by fcixdarrell on Aug 12, 2018 20:23:21 GMT -8
Darrell, How much will 2 CP cars shipped to Chicago cost approximately? Shipping is the biggest obstacle at this point. Vito L. Vito, That I can't help with. You'll need to call the office and find out. 1-866-840-7777. I do know that cars shipped to Chicago would be shipped from their Washington State warehouse, via USPS. Darrell
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Post by ambluco on Oct 19, 2018 9:24:10 GMT -8
Any update? November is fast approaching.
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Post by fcixdarrell on Oct 19, 2018 10:08:21 GMT -8
Any update? November is fast approaching. Got more decorated samples yesterday and I am reviewing them right now. There are some cell phone photos of the samples up on the PWRS web site www.pwrs.ca/announcements/view.php?ID=14763Not the best photos but it gives you an idea... Thanks, Darrell
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Post by csxt8400 on Oct 19, 2018 13:19:25 GMT -8
Any update? November is fast approaching. Got more decorated samples yesterday and I am reviewing them right now. There are some cell phone photos of the samples up on the PWRS web site www.pwrs.ca/announcements/view.php?ID=14763Not the best photos but it gives you an idea... Thanks, Darrell How do they look in person, Darrell?
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Post by fcixdarrell on Oct 19, 2018 13:40:47 GMT -8
How do they look in person, Darrell? For the most part they look AOK. There's a few minor issues I have (like lettering on some cars not opaque enough or lettering on the ends on the wrong corrugation). I'm still amazed at how small some of the text is and still readable! Because there are so many variations, I'm verifying they got the right details on the right cars (so far - so good). It's cool to see them after all the time put into them to get them this far. Thanks, Darrell
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Post by csx3305 on Oct 19, 2018 18:19:26 GMT -8
Are all of the CSX numbers 1996 repaints? If not, could you kindly list the repaint dates for each CSX roadnumber as done by NARC? Thank you.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Oct 19, 2018 19:23:25 GMT -8
Maybe it’s the angle of the photo of the 14000-series Railbox car, but the roof sheets look like they are 2-3 scale inches think. Prototype photos the silver color is not on the side of the car / edge of the roof. Would be great to see better photos of the cars to compare to the prototype.
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Post by fcixdarrell on Oct 19, 2018 20:21:41 GMT -8
Are all of the CSX numbers 1996 repaints? If not, could you kindly list the repaint dates for each CSX roadnumber as done by NARC? Thank you. This first run has a repaint date of 7/96. Future runs will have different dates. It is cost prohibitive to do multiple repaint dates as the details change a bit and we can only change the numbers on any given paint scheme. The numbers that were chosen (I'm not involved in those choices and don't know how they are chosen) for the first run are: 141488 141306 141421 141312 141430 141500 Hope this helps, Darrell
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Post by slowfreight on Oct 20, 2018 5:31:54 GMT -8
Definitely interested in a release of the C&NW original paint scheme, but the NOY scheme is a little past my 1981 cutoff. But that's ok right now between budget and layout needs.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 20, 2018 5:59:20 GMT -8
Like slowfreight I'm avoiding anything later than 1981. Bummer that the B&O Chessie is well past that as it is a nice looking box car. That said there are some that I could use like PC, Railbox, maybe CR and St L, thought not sure I've seen examples of St L boxcars thru the Rockies.
There was a time I blindly bought about any BN boxcar that looked right and thought I'd be safe on dates because the BN merger occurred at the beginning of the 1970s. But since I have backdated to approx 1977-1982ish I've found many box cars weren't painted or repainted into BN until much later than I realized. The more you learn, sometimes the less you thought you knew. Thus, some boxcars I already had are now out-of-date and I selling off (eg Genesis PC&F).
Unfortunately now the pwrs BN is too late for me, as is the Tangent bulkhead and other BN green. Similar things regarding Conrail, many not repainted until mid 80s or later. I think the ExactRail 60' Greenville's are just a bit too late for the FordFAST. I had seen photos of the DRGW pulling auto parts with CR boxcars but might have been post FAST, ie 1983+ time frame. But I digress.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 20, 2018 6:57:52 GMT -8
Unfortunately now the pwrs BN is too late for me, as is the Tangent bulkhead and other BN green. One word, just one word: "Plastics!" In this case, the upcoming Exactrail bulkhead flat in BN: BN had 28 painted BN in the number series Exactrail chose in the July 1981 ORER. Ed
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Post by riogrande on Oct 20, 2018 7:27:51 GMT -8
Ed, yes, not all BN repaints are out-of-date for me. The ExactRail BN 1975 repaint bulkhead is on my to-do list when they arrive.
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Post by grahamline on Oct 20, 2018 7:28:09 GMT -8
... There was a time I blindly bought about any BN boxcar that looked right and thought I'd be safe on dates because the BN merger occurred at the beginning of the 1970s. But since I have backdated to approx 1977-1982ish I've found many box cars weren't painted or repainted into BN until much later than I realized. The more you learn, sometimes the less you thought you knew. Thus, some boxcars I already had are now out-of-date and I selling off (eg Genesis PC&F)..... If you are searching for '77-'82 BN data you should look at Morning Sun's new book, "The Burlington Northern - Oregon - in color." many locomotive photos but also freight cars, early Amtrak, and excellent scenery background. The photos and captions are by Ed Austin. Wouldn't be surprised if he also did the page design. Lots of rolling stock not repainted post-marger.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 20, 2018 7:30:18 GMT -8
Sounds like a good book to try to fit into my budget when I can.
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Post by csx3305 on Oct 20, 2018 9:54:58 GMT -8
Are all of the CSX numbers 1996 repaints? If not, could you kindly list the repaint dates for each CSX roadnumber as done by NARC? Thank you. This first run has a repaint date of 7/96. Future runs will have different dates. It is cost prohibitive to do multiple repaint dates as the details change a bit and we can only change the numbers on any given paint scheme. The numbers that were chosen (I'm not involved in those choices and don't know how they are chosen) for the first run are: 141488 141306 141421 141312 141430 141500 Hope this helps, Darrell Thank you kindly for the info. About three years too new unfortunately, but I might be able to use a couple SBD and C&O cars.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2018 20:55:29 GMT -8
The samples and attention to detail look amazing. I'll definitely buy a few early Railboxes, and see what others I might afford.
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Post by delta767332er on Oct 22, 2018 11:55:38 GMT -8
Are all of the CSX numbers 1996 repaints? If not, could you kindly list the repaint dates for each CSX roadnumber as done by NARC? Thank you. I put together a comprehensive repaint assessment of the CSX PS 5077 roster for NARC with a strong recommendation to do the second round of repaints which were happening around the turn of the decade, so as to include the greatest number of CSX modelers, including myself in full disclosure. It was ignored/disregarded with no explanation or feedback other than what we always hear about PWRS, which is "because Dan." So a potential 6-pack (or more) purchase from me promptly turned into a ZERO. Your inquiry strengthens the point I was making. And late 90s modelers like Dave Olsen could've used the earlier repaints just as well, as well as 2000s modelers. It's a continuing trend of manufacturers doing schemes with less chronological appeal because the research is easier. It's why so so much of Athearn's stuff released these days is from today. Further, I'll counter the love fest going on in this thread with a few concerns: - The already mentioned multiple-inch thick roofs. - The roof details (joints, stampings...) appear to my eye in many cases to have too much relief. - Artwork/paint/lettering details that are too numerous to post. I'll let these be continue to be pointed out as they have been around the interwebs. Preproduction qualifications aside, preproduction lettering errors magically find a way to be just plain ol' errors. And in most cases, it's not just a placement error that can corrected, they would require a complete redo of the pad printing because the fonts are wrong, etc..... - Execution of the thick end ladders is pretty awful. From some angles they look almost molded on. - The stirrups are chunk junk. - The vertical part of the chord between the top eave/sill and roof (Dick Dawson would probably be mortified at my terms, but....) appears to be too tall on some of the carbodies. - Both versions of the door opener wheel apparatuses are laughable for a high-end car. - Rib and flange execution/dimensions on several of the carbodies looks very suspect. - The relief/thickness of the doors and doorframes on several body styles look WAY off with the door sticking out too far. Could be a prepro assembly issue, but in the context of the rest of the cars' tooling, I'm not thinking so. - There is something pretty atrocious going on with some of the upper door tracks. The difference between accuracy and precision was a fun point made by USMC marksmanship instructors on Parris Island. You can tout the accuracy of 1,265 different tooled variations all you want, but if the cars have the precision of a Walthers Mainline or Fox River box, I'm not interested. Brian Bennett Brewster, NY
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Post by ambluco on Oct 22, 2018 12:07:32 GMT -8
So when are they due?
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Post by fcixdarrell on Oct 22, 2018 12:25:18 GMT -8
To be honest, I'm not sure. I am still writing up issues with the paint and decoration and haven't forwarded it to the factory yet. They'll have to send us a few more corrected samples. I don't want to give them the go ahead until we are satisfied that the paint and decoration is correct.
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Post by delta767332er on Oct 22, 2018 14:11:53 GMT -8
Are all of the CSX numbers 1996 repaints? If not, could you kindly list the repaint dates for each CSX roadnumber as done by NARC? Thank you. I put together a comprehensive repaint assessment of the CSX PS 5077 roster for NARC with a strong recommendation to do the second round of repaints which were happening around the turn of the decade, so as to include the greatest number of CSX modelers, including myself in full disclosure. It was ignored/disregarded with no explanation or feedback other than what we always hear about PWRS, which is "because Dan." So a potential 6-pack (or more) purchase from me promptly turned into a ZERO. Your inquiry strengthens the point I was making. And late 90s modelers like Dave Olsen could've used the earlier repaints just as well, as well as 2000s modelers. It's a continuing trend of manufacturers doing schemes with less chronological appeal because the research is easier. It's why so so much of Athearn's stuff released these days is from today. Further, I'll counter the love fest going on in this thread with a few concerns: - The already mentioned multiple-inch thick roofs. - The roof details (joints, stampings...) appear to my eye in many cases to have too much relief. - Artwork/paint/lettering details that are too numerous to post. I'll let these be continue to be pointed out as they have been around the interwebs. Preproduction qualifications aside, preproduction lettering errors magically find a way to be just plain ol' errors. And in most cases, it's not just a placement error that can corrected, they would require a complete redo of the pad printing because the fonts are wrong, etc..... - Execution of the thick end ladders is pretty awful. From some angles they look almost molded on. - The stirrups are chunk junk. - The vertical part of the chord between the top eave/sill and roof (Dick Dawson would probably be mortified at my terms, but....) appears to be too tall on some of the carbodies. - Both versions of the door opener wheel apparatuses are laughable for a high-end car. - Rib and flange execution/dimensions on several of the carbodies looks very suspect. - The relief/thickness of the doors and doorframes on several body styles look WAY off with the door sticking out too far. Could be a prepro assembly issue, but in the context of the rest of the cars' tooling, I'm not thinking so. - There is something pretty atrocious going on with some of the upper door tracks. The difference between accuracy and precision was a fun point made by USMC marksmanship instructors on Parris Island. You can tout the accuracy of 1,265 different tooled variations all you want, but if the cars have the precision of a Walthers Mainline or Fox River box, I'm not interested. Brian Bennett Brewster, NY I've just been privately accused of being "butt hurt" by an agent of the manufacturer because my research was ignored. Can easily admit frustrated, but not butt hurt. I even admitted so in the post. Which has nothing to do with my observations I shared on the car. Because I critique subpar products publicly when others choose to do it privately or give me kudos for my comments privately, which I do find varying degrees of frustrating also, I'll continue to do the talking to represent those that think it's an immoral sin to critique a for-profit model railroader manufacturer's products. And I'll take the high road in doing so. Certainly not trying to do anything subversive here, just express frustration at what appears to be another less than A+ freight car release. Here's my response to the accusation that I do stuff "like this." "Stuff like what? Critique obvious errors and point them out in public? Yep, I do that. How is that unprofessional? I stated my argument for the scheme and spent a lot of time researching to present said argument. It was ignored. That's frustrating, but I'm not butt hurt. You are incorrect in assuming that has anything to do with my educated observations of the pictures Dan or whoever chose to share. I'm not the bad guy here. There is no bad guy. Only pictures from a for-profit company of a product that there is a lot of bragging on. You can call it slamming. But I think that's a function of the product, not the one doing the critiquing. Don't insult my intelligence by using the "haven't seen, only online pictures" tired argument. It's not my first rodeo of seeing a picture of a prepro model. If one isn't to have an opinion of the pictures good or bad, why release them? As you're literally the professional and I'm just a consumer with an opinion, perhaps you should reconsider the use of the term unprofessional." So to be clear, I made the post above because it looks like the model has some serious shortcomings in the context of a high-end boxcar, not because I'm "butt-hurt."
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Post by wp8thsub on Oct 22, 2018 15:47:29 GMT -8
I'm with Brian on this one. These models look awful so far, and I doubt the actual product will be much improved compared to the photos we've already seen. The photos have taken me from potential interest in multiple cars to zero unless something changes.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Oct 22, 2018 16:14:32 GMT -8
The PWRS websites says these cars are due 1 November 2018 and if that’s the truth there is no way to fix paint issues let alone body issues in about a weeks time. If they plan to fix the highlighted issues then I would imagine they’ll be released sometime next year. I had high hopes for these cars. I will be watching the PWRS website to see if there are any updates addressing production and the mentioned paint and body concerns.
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Post by delta767332er on Oct 22, 2018 17:01:42 GMT -8
The PWRS websites says these cars are due 1 November 2018 and if that’s the truth there is no way to fix paint issues let alone body issues in about a weeks time. If they plan to fix the highlighted issues then I would imagine they’ll be released sometime next year. I had high hopes for these cars. I will be watching the PWRS website to see if there are any updates addressing production and the mentioned paint and body concerns. Their timeline on these cars has been a joke from the get-go. It wasn't that long ago that the ETA was updated to your referenced November. Yet, Darrell just admitted he's still collecting artwork and paint issues to be corrected. Certainly agree it's going to be 2019. At the earliest.
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Post by csxt8400 on Oct 22, 2018 19:06:28 GMT -8
As a fellow CSX modeler (of roughly the 98-2001 time period, with some modelers leeway) I appreciate your attention to detail, Brian.
I'm not mad about the 96 repaints for obvious reasons, but I will agree with the part about manufacturers choosing to ignore a lot of great information when it comes to picking the right product. And there are certain schemes and numbers that should be the ones produced ahead of more restrictive variations when at all possible to maximize interest.
I am in need of a fleet of WC boxcars, which have historically been horrific, so the SSAM variation of this car is very important to me. I also have a healthy amount of the Fox Valley 7 posts, because the lettering and logos are correct. Athearn cant do that, Atlas chooses not to, so I am left with "good enough" more often than I may prefer. So the level of detail/inaccuracies on the PWRS car doesnt disgust me, though I dont find it as amazing as I may have hoped.
I can live with some shortcomings in order to have a layout that represents a timeframe fairly accurately. But I will certainly not complain to those who do critique down to the last rivet, because I'd rather have a better product myself. And on certain particular products, I am that guy that nitpicks it to death.
In the end, with all the trouble that manufacturers have to go through to bring these cars and locomotives to fruition, it stands to reason to try and do it the very best it can be done the first time.
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Post by delta767332er on Oct 22, 2018 19:36:43 GMT -8
As a fellow CSX modeler (of roughly the 98-2001 time period, with some modelers leeway) I appreciate your attention to detail, Brian. I'm not mad about the 96 repaints for obvious reasons, but I will agree with the part about manufacturers choosing to ignore a lot of great information when it comes to picking the right product. And there are certain schemes and numbers that should be the ones produced ahead of more restrictive variations when at all possible to maximize interest. I am in need of a fleet of WC boxcars, which have historically been horrific, so the SSAM variation of this car is very important to me. I also have a healthy amount of the Fox Valley 7 posts, because the lettering and logos are correct. Athearn cant do that, Atlas chooses not to, so I am left with "good enough" more often than I may prefer. So the level of detail/inaccuracies on the PWRS car doesnt disgust me, though I dont find it as amazing as I may have hoped. I can live with some shortcomings in order to have a layout that represents a timeframe fairly accurately. But I will certainly not complain to those who do critique down to the last rivet, because I'd rather have a better product myself. And on certain particular products, I am that guy that nitpicks it to death. In the end, with all the trouble that manufacturers have to go through to bring these cars and locomotives to fruition, it stands to reason to try and do it the very best it can be done the first time. Completely understand the dilemma of "badly needing" lowering one's standards. That's why I haven't completely canceled all of my preorders, even with the frustrations of what I'm seeing. As an early 90s modeler with a paper mill and printing company ON my planned layout, as well as lots of bridge paper traffic, I just don't have the luxury of ignoring this car on principle, as much as I'd like. As it is, my plan is to buy a reasonable amount (assuming the paint and lettering is usable) to improve them (high probability of roof replacement or edge-thinning and end ladder replacement) to help fill this huge gap in the market, though unfortunately I don't think it'll be the fleet car it could've/should've been. But who knows, it's been alluded that these pictures are irrelevant and you can base no opinions from them. So perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised at the best boxcar that's ever been produced! [sarcasm meter pegged.]
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Post by fcixdarrell on Oct 22, 2018 20:26:31 GMT -8
Their timeline on these cars has been a joke from the get-go. It wasn't that long ago that the ETA was updated to your referenced November. Yet, Darrell just admitted he's still collecting artwork and paint issues to be corrected. Certainly agree it's going to be 2019. At the earliest. No, I am not still collecting artwork. Artwork has been at the factory for months. What I am correcting is some color mis-matches and a few instances where they for some reason changed typefaces from the supplied artwork. Corrections will be sent to the factory in the next day or two (also working on the N scale cars). These won't go into production until the corrections are made and new samples sent to us.
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Post by delta767332er on Oct 23, 2018 6:42:07 GMT -8
No, I am not still collecting artwork. Artwork has been at the factory for months. What I am correcting is some color mis-matches and a few instances where they for some reason changed typefaces from the supplied artwork. Corrections will be sent to the factory in the next day or two (also working on the N scale cars). These won't go into production until the corrections are made and new samples sent to us. That was to be read, "......collecting artwork [issues] and paint issues to be corrected."
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Oct 23, 2018 6:49:06 GMT -8
Can you comment if the possible body errors that have identified from the posted photos will be corrected? No, I am not still collecting artwork. Artwork has been at the factory for months. What I am correcting is some color mis-matches and a few instances where they for some reason changed typefaces from the supplied artwork. Corrections will be sent to the factory in the next day or two (also working on the N scale cars). These won't go into production until the corrections are made and new samples sent to us.
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Post by fcixdarrell on Oct 23, 2018 8:17:16 GMT -8
Can you comment if the possible body errors that have identified from the posted photos will be corrected? No, I am not still collecting artwork. Artwork has been at the factory for months. What I am correcting is some color mis-matches and a few instances where they for some reason changed typefaces from the supplied artwork. Corrections will be sent to the factory in the next day or two (also working on the N scale cars). These won't go into production until the corrections are made and new samples sent to us. Sure. What body issues are you talking about? Can you give me specifics that you would like to discuss?
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Oct 23, 2018 8:28:34 GMT -8
Maybe additional pictures would clarify or show that these are not issues after all.
Brian Bennett already mentioned this in his post above:
- The already mentioned multiple-inch thick roofs. - The roof details (joints, stampings...) appear to my eye in many cases to have too much relief. - Execution of the thick end ladders is pretty awful. From some angles they look almost molded on. - The stirrups are chunk junk. - The vertical part of the chord between the top eave/sill and roof (Dick Dawson would probably be mortified at my terms, but....) appears to be too tall on some of the carbodies. - Both versions of the door opener wheel apparatuses are laughable for a high-end car. - Rib and flange execution/dimensions on several of the carbodies looks very suspect. - The relief/thickness of the doors and doorframes on several body styles look WAY off with the door sticking out too far. Could be a prepro assembly issue, but in the context of the rest of the cars' tooling, I'm not thinking so. - There is something pretty atrocious going on with some of the upper door tracks.
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