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Post by loco8107 on Feb 25, 2018 16:15:12 GMT -8
The last few days I’ve seen the new run of GP15’s are on eBay and some are selling for - $189.98 - and that’s for non sound units. Some discounts are going for $161. Has Athearn gotten as bad as Walthers with the prices of new locos? I don’t want to sound like a whiner but I can’t see these higher prices being good for the hobby.
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Post by 12bridge on Feb 25, 2018 16:20:18 GMT -8
This is why we are seeing a resurgence of lower end models. Walthers Mainline, ScaleTrains Operator, Athearn Roundhouse, etc..
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Post by Brakie on Feb 25, 2018 17:15:24 GMT -8
Guys, Remember you get what you pay for.. With today's higher tier models you are going to pay higher prices...
But,are you?
Let's take a closer look and do some shopping..
I've seen Atlas,IM and Red Caboose cars just a few bucks more then Athearn/Roundhouse/Bachmann RTR cars on e-Bay and MBK. Again go to train shows and look around and under the front of the table where there are boxes of NOS at cheaper prices and with that thought go to that train show and treat it like a great treasure hunt. Search e-Bay thoroughly.
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Post by loco8107 on Feb 25, 2018 17:51:39 GMT -8
Guys, Remember you get what you pay for.. With today's higher tier models you are going to pay higher prices... But,are you? Let's take a closer look and do some shopping.. I've seen Atlas,IM and Red Caboose cars just a few bucks more then Athearn/Roundhouse/Bachmann RTR cars on e-Bay and MBK. Again go to train shows and look around and under the front of the table where there are boxes of NOS at cheaper prices and with that thought go to that train show and treat it like a great treasure hunt. Search e-Bay thoroughly. I don’t think many of us are arguing that, but how is the price constantly going up for those high end models justified when they have the same amount of details as in past runs? Nothing has been improved.
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Post by ambluco on Feb 25, 2018 17:53:50 GMT -8
Costs in China keep rising.
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Post by valenciajim on Feb 25, 2018 17:56:56 GMT -8
Guys, Remember you get what you pay for.. With today's higher tier models you are going to pay higher prices... But,are you? Let's take a closer look and do some shopping.. I've seen Atlas,IM and Red Caboose cars just a few bucks more then Athearn/Roundhouse/Bachmann RTR cars on e-Bay and MBK. Again go to train shows and look around and under the front of the table where there are boxes of NOS at cheaper prices and with that thought go to that train show and treat it like a great treasure hunt. Search e-Bay thoroughly. I don’t think many of us are arguing that, but how is the price constantly going up for those high end models justified when they have the same amount of details as in past runs? Nothing has been improved. I am sure if the importers could hold the line on prices they would. I suspect that it costs more to produce things in China. Furthermore, I don't know how foreign currency fluctuations are affecting costs. I am going overseas in a couple of months and the trip is costing me a lot more than a similar trip did three years ago.
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IHB97
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Post by IHB97 on Feb 25, 2018 18:09:40 GMT -8
From my understanding, what ambulco posted is true. I've heard that various manufacturing sectors throughout China are seeing incremental price increases. Indeed, as the skills of Chinese labor increase, the wages these skilled laborers can command will correlate. I've briefly encountered the literature, but it looks that China's stronghold on lower end and mid range manufacturing will not last forever. Being that Kader and the Chinese model manufacturers have a large comparative advantage in the production of model trains, that may not change for a while. However, it trends continue it wouldn't surprise me if some parts are outsourced to other nations with cheaper labor costs to compensate for the increasing costs in China. This shall be interesting to follow.
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Post by tomnoy3 on Feb 25, 2018 18:44:38 GMT -8
I remember when I was in highschool and the first Genesis line came out. Building a fleet of cars for $35 a hopper was out of the realm, but I acquired one at the time and the detail was amazing. Almost 15 years later and thats about all I buy. $35-50 today basically stays within the tolerance of general inflation. And each new model that comes out refines and adds new details.
Its been said many times that the tooling and development costs are over 6 figures before the model hits the store shelves. For a company to invest that, for a narrow audience, I dont think there is anything all that out of line. Sure, I'd like to pay less, but when I can pull a model out of the box and set it on the layout and go, theres value in that for me.
I'll pick up lower end stuff at meets or online, spend a few hours detailing and upgrading them, but then whats my time worth? The market will dictate, and I am comfortable spending higher dollars on my hobby to give the entrepreneurs that cater to us a decent return, with enough to reinvest in newer products.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 19:01:48 GMT -8
I have no problem with Genesis price increases as long as the quality is there. Some freight cars that once were Genesis have moved into the lesser line and are or can be a good value.
After having banned Athearn diesel engines from my layout for awhile, I did make an exception and purchased an ICG GP-35. The off color orange represents a faded and/or dirty ICG unit, but I am impressed at how well it runs for the price.
Athearn did up the ante by quietly providing unit specific details even on the ready to roll line, so one can buy different variations of a roadname.
I may take a chance and order one of the coming Genesis ICG chicken wire F-3As. I just wish they would fix the IC orange.
No manufacturer is perfect, and I did not get to meet Irv Athearn, but I think there are some things he would be proud of if he were here today. I can certainly see the heritage in the former Railpower shelled GP-35 and the drive. They advertise that they will have mechanism parts, when some of the competition definitely will not have parts...that is how Irv wanted it to be.
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 26, 2018 0:19:18 GMT -8
I believe rather than raise list prices, Athearn reduced the dealer discount some time back, resulting in the street price being higher than it had been.
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 26, 2018 4:24:50 GMT -8
I believe rather than raise list prices, Athearn reduced the dealer discount some time back, resulting in the street price being higher than it had been. They also went to MAP pricing a couple of years ago. I've seen MB Klein "get around" that on a few select models, listing them as "warehouse finds, no restock expected", but between higher list, lower dealer discount, and MAP prices, the prices will effectively rise.
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Post by nebrzephyr on Feb 26, 2018 6:53:23 GMT -8
I believe rather than raise list prices, Athearn reduced the dealer discount some time back, resulting in the street price being higher than it had been. They also went to MAP pricing a couple of years ago. I've seen MB Klein "get around" that on a few select models, listing them as "warehouse finds, no restock expected", but between higher list, lower dealer discount, and MAP prices, the prices will effectively rise. If I'm not mistaken, the MAP pricing is only good for 90 days from release date. So any stock on dealer shelves after 90 days can be priced however. Bob
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Post by NS4122 on Feb 26, 2018 9:05:32 GMT -8
I think you're right. Tony's Train Exchange was selling the SD70ACes that came out in September 2017 at the MAP price ($254). After Christmas, the price dropped to $224. If I'm not mistaken, the MAP pricing is only good for 90 days from release date. So any stock on dealer shelves after 90 days can be priced however. Bob
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 26, 2018 9:18:56 GMT -8
Folks, Costs in China continue to rise. For example, in Sept. 2016 the Rapido 8600 coaches arrived at $100 MSRP. This month, the follow up parlors arrived, a similar car using roughly the same number of parts. In that 17 month span, the cost increased by 10% and the parlors really should be at $110. Fortunately for us, Jason held the price down at $100 but he can't continue to do that. The next NH stainless steel car, if there is one, won't be as low as $100 MSRP.
Likewise, I know from talking to BLI that their cost in making the Brass Hybrid I-5 (NH 4-6-4) tripled between their two runs of them. The second run did get smoke but were otherwise identical. It's why the price went from $450 to $550.
People in China making model trains really don't work for a bowl of rice in sweatshop conditions. They're just as driven as the rest of us, wanting raises and better working/living conditions. They'll go for the better paying jobs in the ever-growing electronics biz instead of the niche model train manufacturers. So to get anyone competent to assemble these models, you have to pay them more, which means higher prices for us.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 9:50:00 GMT -8
I bought a GP15AC from Overland...at his discounted price.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Feb 26, 2018 10:01:48 GMT -8
I believe rather than raise list prices, Athearn reduced the dealer discount some time back, resulting in the street price being higher than it had been. BINGO! This is all anyone had to say about the prices of Athearn's models. Nothing more. There was no need for people to immediately start defending Athearn and all other Manufacturers with the "Riding cost" reasoning. People in general are real quick in defending the manufacturers and that is funny. They remind me of Hardcore Trump supporters that defend his every action and make excuses FOR HIM on every stupid or outrageous stuff that he does. Let the manufacturer defend themselves if they care about their reputation and what people are saying about them. My point is, STOP BEING MANUFACTURERS SPOKESMAN IF IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS OR YOU ARE NOT BEING PAID TO DO SO. It reminds me of guys in my union who do this for the city I work for. IE.,Members may ask for a 3% raise for three years and most people agree for the union to ask for it. Then you get a bunch of people that immediately start making excuses for the city telling everyone the city will not do that because we already make too much, the city is broke, we should not ask for that much cause they will counter offer with All 0's then we will get nothing etc. Etc. I always say, well before people start making excuses for the city how about letting the city tell us those things you members are telling us they will surely say! I want to hear those excuses and reasons straight from the city not from our own members who are making excuses for them. Same feelings with these manufacturer questions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 10:06:23 GMT -8
If I try to look objectively at what is offered in a new Rapido passenger car (the NH ones at my dealer are truly awesome) and compare it to the brass, nickel plated, unpainted Palace Car Company passenger cars of more than 20 years ago, which cost more money then, with no window glazing and no factory paint, and occasional plating problems, it is clear to me that today's Rapido offering (note I only own one Rapido Alco FA-2) is far superior, for less money, than yesterday's plated brass import.
It is truly the "best of times" in this hobby. The bargain hunters like myself can find yesterday's nib product on the evil auction site (my new Proto 2000 U30B for example), and we can go out and buy HO engineering marvels if we step up and pay the freight, like some of the Intermountain autoracks, or Molocco freight cars, or Tangent, or ...fill in the blank.
Sometimes I have to pick through a couple Genesis diesels to find a good one that meets my specifications, but then I have a fine model indeed.
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Post by valenciajim on Feb 26, 2018 11:08:41 GMT -8
There are some excellent comments in this thread. The switch to MAP pricing is one way that the importers are trying to pass those increased costs onto consumers.
It would be interesting to see the relative number of units sold and profit margins compared to prior years. I'll bet both have shrunk considerably.
One trend that I think we will eventually see is that if foreign labor costs continue to escalate and 3D printing becomes more cost effective and the technology improves, we will see more products made using new technology. I believe that this will be true not only for model railroading, but for other industries as well.
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 26, 2018 11:11:40 GMT -8
There are some excellent comments in this thread. The switch to MAP pricing is one way that the importers are trying to pass those increased costs onto consumers. It would be interesting to see the relative number of units sold and profit margins compared to prior years. I'll bet both have shrunk considerably. One trend that I think we will eventually see is that if foreign labor costs continue to escalate and 3D printing becomes more cost effective and the technology improves, we will see more products made using new technology. I believe that this will be true not only for model railroading, but for other industries as well. I don't see how 3D printing would help save money, you still need someone to assemble it. That's the major cost.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 26, 2018 11:30:27 GMT -8
To be fair, there is defending a company and then there is explaining the forces are work behind the rise in price. In the olden days, when labor got too high, manufacturing would move to another country where labor was lower cost. Many overseas manufacturing went from Japan, to Korea and then to China. Part of what I understand is making it difficult to move model train manufacturing out of China is the sophistication and infrastructur needed for engineering and assembling the very detailed HQ models. Apparently it isn't easy to find a replacement country.
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IHB97
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Post by IHB97 on Feb 26, 2018 19:02:28 GMT -8
I believe rather than raise list prices, Athearn reduced the dealer discount some time back, resulting in the street price being higher than it had been. BINGO! This is all anyone had to say about the prices of Athearn's models. Nothing more. There was no need for people to immediately start defending Athearn and all other Manufacturers with the "Riding cost" reasoning. People in general are real quick in defending the manufacturers and that is funny. They remind me of Hardcore Trump supporters that defend his every action and make excuses FOR HIM on every stupid or outrageous stuff that he does. Let the manufacturer defend themselves if they care about their reputation and what people are saying about them. My point is, STOP BEING MANUFACTURERS SPOKESMAN IF IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS OR YOU ARE NOT BEING PAID TO DO SO. It reminds me of guys in my union who do this for the city I work for. IE.,Members may ask for a 3% raise for three years and most people agree for the union to ask for it. Then you get a bunch of people that immediately start making excuses for the city telling everyone the city will not do that because we already make too much, the city is broke, we should not ask for that much cause they will counter offer with All 0's then we will get nothing etc. Etc. I always say, well before people start making excuses for the city how about letting the city tell us those things you members are telling us they will surely say! I want to hear those excuses and reasons straight from the city not from our own members who are making excuses for them. Same feelings with these manufacturer questions. Analyzing and discussing forces at play behind rising costs in the manufacture of model trains in China (for that matter most manufacturing that isn't tech based in China) is not the same as defending manufacturers. It's an attempt at objective analysis of the world around us. As Paul correctly noted after me, Chinese laborers respond to the same incentives that any rational human would. Tech companies are competing away the labor from other manufacturing sectors in China, something that has especially hit the brass industry. Manufacturers can pass along costs depending on the elasticity of demand. From experience in retail, and observing how Kader has come to dominate large segments of the American market through cheaper models via Bachmann, I'd wager that the demand for model trains is fairly elastic. With that in mind, I'm doubtful any producer can pass along substantiative costs into the model train market with out a drop in the quantity demanded for the model trains at the higher prices.
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Post by SD90 on Feb 26, 2018 22:53:52 GMT -8
What ever the reason, I have no doubt we will see $399 locomotive prices one day!
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Post by Brakie on Feb 27, 2018 6:05:02 GMT -8
What ever the reason, I have no doubt we will see $399 locomotive prices one day! And to go with those marvelous $399.00 engines is $129.00 boxcars.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 27, 2018 8:29:36 GMT -8
If I'm being paid $300 and hour, I think I can handle the increase.
Looking forward to it,
Ed
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 27, 2018 9:34:33 GMT -8
sd90, $400 has been surpassed many times in brass, hybrid brass, steam, and turbine locos. But if you're talking strictly plastic, non-steam, 1-unit locos north of $400, well... Rapido has: rapidotrains.com/nh-ep-5-jet-us/ $459.95 for the DCC/Sound version.
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Post by valenciajim on Feb 27, 2018 13:37:49 GMT -8
There are some excellent comments in this thread. The switch to MAP pricing is one way that the importers are trying to pass those increased costs onto consumers. It would be interesting to see the relative number of units sold and profit margins compared to prior years. I'll bet both have shrunk considerably. One trend that I think we will eventually see is that if foreign labor costs continue to escalate and 3D printing becomes more cost effective and the technology improves, we will see more products made using new technology. I believe that this will be true not only for model railroading, but for other industries as well. I don't see how 3D printing would help save money, you still need someone to assemble it. That's the major cost. I'll bet a lot of the manually applied detail parts can be printed as part of shell. Attaching those detail parts must be large part of the cost because many manufacturers are now offering locomotives and passenger cars without the detail parts. We'll see what happens. Manufacturing is going to look at lot different at the end of the next decade. The cost of Robotics is going to decline as well. Whether robotics work economically for a model railroad locomotive, who knows.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 18:02:17 GMT -8
Yes, the labor is a huge cost. Some ho locomotives actually exceed 500 different parts. Many are over 300.
The cost of buying and setting up robots is far too great for the average production run of model trains. We are actually talking about production runs on the order of only 2000 to 3000 diesel units of all roadnames combined, with some roadnames in production lots approaching only 200 units on the low end. Others may be 3 or 5 times that. Nobody is going to be replacing train factory workers with robots any time soon. There are far too many production steps and fine detail parts to install, that vary within the run.
We are not building tens of thousands of big ticket price automobiles.
Quote from President Reagan: "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant. It is just that they know so much that just isn't so."
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Post by Chad on Feb 27, 2018 20:03:28 GMT -8
Yes I remember the day not that long ago I could buy a really nice new V8 powered car for under $15,000, or a house. 15 years ago bought my current home for $750,000. Today it is valued at $1,700,000. Hey remember gas when it was $.35 a gallon. Yeah inflation is a Bummer.
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Post by John Sheridan on Feb 28, 2018 5:11:49 GMT -8
I don't see how 3D printing would help save money, you still need someone to assemble it. That's the major cost. I'll bet a lot of the manually applied detail parts can be printed as part of shell. Attaching those detail parts must be large part of the cost because many manufacturers are now offering locomotives and passenger cars without the detail parts. We'll see what happens. Manufacturing is going to look at lot different at the end of the next decade. The cost of Robotics is going to decline as well. Whether robotics work economically for a model railroad locomotive, who knows. Really ? So please, tell all you know about Model Railroad manufacturing techniques since you *think* you know so much about it.
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 28, 2018 6:54:43 GMT -8
Hey, Athearn had molded on grabs, fans, and other detail parts in 1955.
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