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Post by Judge Doom on Apr 18, 2018 23:30:42 GMT -8
As some know, Big Dawg Originals went incognito a while back and is now pedaling all his knockoff shells through hobby shop CMR Products under the "Puttman Locomotive Works" line. It appears that the cloned shells of the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society DR4-4-1500 Baldwin Babyfaces haven't reappeared yet, but this just popped up on their page the other day: a double ended CNJ Baldwin, which appears to be cast from a kitbash of two of the ARHS resin shells, or using two of the shells cloned from them to make the master: www.cmrproducts.com/ho-scale-baldwin-dr-6-4-2000-double-ended-baby-face-locomotive-shell/No images of the master were posted, but here's a larger image of the cloned shell:  The knockoff saga continues. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Apr 19, 2018 2:53:27 GMT -8
There are people that see no issue in what this guy is doing. I see on other specific prototype groups hosted mostly by Facebook, where someone is trying to beg for the Dawg to do an SW1001 for example. The people buying this stuff are not at all concerned by the flagrant cloning of some companies intellectual property. They just WANT that particular model. When someone says that what the Dawg is doing amounts to theft, these, I GOTTA HAVE IT!!!!! get angry at the people with a moral fiber.
Unfortunately, there have always been more than enough bottom feeders in the hobby. People looking to make a quick and easy buck. So many times, they get shut down in one spot and pop up like an ugly zit in another, until it gets popped and on it goes. Just think of the principle of Front Range, for someone that seems to be the second coming of "whack a mole".
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Post by riogrande on Apr 19, 2018 3:46:57 GMT -8
And there always will be people who are "ok" with unethical things. Jason Shron has pretty much addressed this and taken a stand on it.
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Post by lvrr325 on Apr 19, 2018 4:04:03 GMT -8
Could it be copied from a brass model?
At least it's a unique product and not a direct copy.
And after trying to buy an SW8 dynamic brake conversion I can see why people went to this guy. It's not on their website, so I asked on their facebook page where to get one. I learned that they have them, they sell them at the shows they attend, and never got any clue how I would buy one. Short of, perhaps, driving several hundred miles to one of those shows.
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Post by slowfreight on Apr 19, 2018 6:01:35 GMT -8
Ironically, between what I've seen and others have reported, very few of these are even close to correct. There's no temptation for me to buy something incorrect, and since they're all unpainted I don't understand why anyone with the chops to slave away painting and detailing a resin shell would waste time with an inaccurate, sloppy product.
But kvetching doesn't solve anything and I've done all I can do from here by voting with my feet.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 19, 2018 6:20:08 GMT -8
... and wallet.
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Post by roadkill on Apr 19, 2018 8:51:26 GMT -8
He's got a T6 listed on Feebay right now, it looks like a slightly cleaned up copy of the ancient Alco Models unit, "cleaned up" meaning whomever did the master sharpened up the corners of the numberboard notches. Actually sorta tempted to buy one to see what I can do with it. Can't say as I have any problem with copying an ancient and rather crude 40+ year old model from a company that's been out of business for several decades.
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Post by bar on Apr 19, 2018 8:52:21 GMT -8
This has been going in the model car hobby for decades, Modelhaus and Jimmy Flintstone. among others, have been put on the Mount Rushmore of the hobby, not prosecuted, for their thefts of intellectual property as a basis for their resin models.
For the self-righteous here, it was Life-Like's theft in cloning the Athearn Blue Box loco chassis that begat the breakout (and low-cost) Proto 2000 line, and the subsequent migration of production to China. So it's decades ago since that engine got out of the roundhouse...
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 19, 2018 11:57:35 GMT -8
Generally. GENERALLY. If you use someone else's product to make a "different" product, it is legally acceptable. This'll be copyright law, by the way.
If you do a resin casting of a Rapido FL9 and sell it, you have broken the law.
If you bash up an SDL39 from whoever's body castings do the job, and sell copies, you're safe. Same holds if you can do a DD35 shell from an Athearn DD40AX shell.
It would appear, from the Judge's description, that the pictured product would be legal.
Of course, there's a point in there where things flip over from legal to non-legal. That's what juries, who would really rather be home playing with their trains, or whatever, are for.
Also, "legal" and "moral" are not always co-incident. So one could argue that the pictured product is still an immoral act, even though it may be legal.
Ed
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scaledriver
Full Member
Circumventing a prior ban
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Post by scaledriver on Apr 19, 2018 12:54:47 GMT -8
How many modelers would not purchase a decent model train locomotive, assembled, painted, with nice drive and electronics, and instead, wait and hope for someone to make a crude casting of just the shell?
Which then requires hours of work and many parts to detail, paint, and figure out and build a drive for.
The answer is obviously zero, or very close to zero.
If there is such high demand that this is a concern, perhaps that signals more could be made and sold.
There is not much worth seeing here.
Thank you
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Post by Judge Doom on Apr 19, 2018 14:08:07 GMT -8
Posting this serves as advertising for the product and new source. Why do that if you are against the business practices . I have seen these shells in person for sale. At best they are crude and rough. Nobody was buying them according to the seller. The real future question is 3D Printing. Thank you Frankly, it's a risk you take when pointing to something unethical going on. Maybe someone on the fence questioning the legitimacy of those shells or wondering the origins does a Google search, comes across this thread, and decides not to buy any. Maybe a manufacturer not aware of them comes across this thread, sees what their modus operandi is, has a look at their offerings and sees a number of their own shells that have been knocked-off. There's already lots of people buying them, just look at some of the sales numbers on their eBay site listings, where people see a pretty shell for much cheaper than other resin manufacturers and go "Ooooooo". Like Jim said, they are the "I WANT IT NAOW" crowd that don't care about ethics and who put all the time, money and effort tooling something up, as long it gets them that easy way of getting a shell they want to put on their old Athearn blue-box drive. Someone points out the questionable origins of the shells, they usually pipe up "NOPE YOUR JUST WINEING BIG DAWG AND CMR CAN DO NO WRONG I HAVE LIEK 10 SHELLS OF THEIRS I HAND PAINTED ON ATHREAN BLUE BOX FRAMES AN THEIR THE BEST. TOO BAD FOR THAT OTHER COMPANY BUT I GOT MY MODLES SO THERE". |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 14:11:47 GMT -8
This has been going in the model car hobby for decades, Modelhaus and Jimmy Flintstone. among others, have been put on the Mount Rushmore of the hobby, not prosecuted, for their thefts of intellectual property as a basis for their resin models. For the self-righteous here, it was Life-Like's theft in cloning the Athearn Blue Box loco chassis that begat the breakout (and low-cost) Proto 2000 line, and the subsequent migration of production to China. So it's decades ago since that engine got out of the roundhouse... Those shells aren't as good as the old Railpower products shell of the early 1990's. I don't see people that have a keen eye for detail even considering these "shells". They are crude, to say the least, imo. Although, I often see people selling models on eBay that are butchered up...and demand a top price for them...so there is a market, albeit small. You are correct on the life-like/proto 2K drive point as well...and those were packed with dark brown grease; which made them run smooth and quiet until the gears cracked by reacting to the grease over time. They really upped the bar at the time of their introduction with the BL2 locomotive, until you took a real good look at the details on them...they overproduced them too, leading to huge discount mail order places blowing them out (due to a huge discount vs. LHS guys being forced to buy from Walthers or English's with the standard discounts applied). |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Apr 19, 2018 16:33:18 GMT -8
Those shells aren't as good as the old Railpower products shell of the early 1990's. I don't see people that have a keen eye for detail even considering these "shells". They are crude, to say the least, imo. Although, I often see people selling models on eBay that are butchered up...and demand a top price for them...so there is a market, albeit small. But as long as someone is buying it, then the price was right. If the same item would go unsold and be listed time after time, then the item is more than likely overpriced. There may be a market for just about anything on e-Bay. But when the Dawg is peddling shells for $35 and now with nominal shipping that is still cheap. I used to work the then big monthly train show at the Du Page County Fairgrounds in Wheaton, Illinois with my best friend for more than a decade. You'd see the same tired overpriced stuff from the same people month after month after year. After about a year or more you'd think they knew that it wasn't going to sell. Then you'd see the people selling the beat and the cheap and their tables would be cleaned out like a pup cleans its food dish. It sold because it was cheap and in model trains cheap sells. My friend and the vendor across from us, who was a brass dealer, called those people rag pickers. They bought the junk because it was so cheap. Dawg's shells are dirt cheap compared to a Kaslo. He will always have a market for these shells and will continue to crank them out. Some may find it disgusting what he's doing, but until the model manufacturers who spent the big bucks to make the basis of his "custom" shell bite back, there is no one making money except the Dawg. You are correct on the life-like/proto 2K drive point as well...and those were packed with dark brown grease; which made them run smooth and quiet until the gears cracked by reacting to the grease over time. You forgot to add that the "peanut butter" turned to cement. Also, the gear cracking continued into the blue box era for Life-Like even after they got away from the "peanut butter". They really upped the bar at the time of their introduction with the BL2 locomotive, until you took a real good look at the details on them...they overproduced them too, leading to huge discount mail order places blowing them out (due to a huge discount vs. LHS guys being forced to buy from Walthers or English's with the standard discounts applied). E-Bay and the online sales outlets didn't exist when the Life-Like rolled out the BL-2, FA-2 and GP18 in the brown box. If that had been in place, the blood shed would still be flowing. Thankfully for bricks and mortar stores, online wasn't even a dot on the map when the E8/9 and the GP7/9's, 30's, etc. were introduced. Life-Like overproduced not just the early stuff but just about everything they pumped out. Some models today are actually in demand and fetch good prices. For instance, the Soo Line GP30's with the ALCo trucks, maybe they didn't make 25,000 more than they needed with the Soo models, but they are rare and generally fetch amounts well north of $100. The collapse of price was mostly due to Life-Like's business practices at the time of having some back door deals to the dealers with cash in hand on a specific day. These merchants would be for much less than wholesale and then sell for less than wholesale. This put the hobby shop and even the wholesalers like Walthers behind the eight ball. You can still find store owners who are raw over this practice. If the sale to Walthers did one thing, it leveled the playing field a little. |
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Post by alcoc430 on Apr 19, 2018 17:15:16 GMT -8
He's got a T6 listed on Feebay right now, it looks like a slightly cleaned up copy of the ancient Alco Models unit, "cleaned up" meaning whomever did the master sharpened up the corners of the numberboard notches. Actually sorta tempted to buy one to see what I can do with it. Can't say as I have any problem with copying an ancient and rather crude 40+ year old model from a company that's been out of business for several decades. The guy kitbashed an RS3 notches to a resin copy of the alco brass model and narrowed the hood to scale. It's not a bad shell, but the doors configuration is wrong left side should be right side and vice versa for the right side just like the brass model. |
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Post by alcoc430 on Apr 19, 2018 17:18:04 GMT -8
Posting this serves as advertising for the product and new source. Why do that if you are against the business practices . I have seen these shells in person for sale. At best they are crude and rough. Nobody was buying them according to the seller. The real future question is 3D Printing. Thank you I'm disgusted with the shapeways resin sw1001, the shell started to desinigrate and crack. So I'm afraid I'm back to trying to kitbash one or wait for big dawg lol. |
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Post by theengineshed on Apr 19, 2018 17:27:24 GMT -8
I'm not convinced this is a copy of the ARHS shell, specifically the nose. The angles are wrong, my guess is the cab was copied from an older brass model. Here is my ARHS shell, look at the slope of the cab and compare to the photo on the CMR website.  ARHS Baldwin DR 4-4-1500 Babyface by Pete Piszczek, on Flickr  |
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Post by alcoc430 on Apr 19, 2018 17:28:40 GMT -8
Could it be copied from a brass model? At least it's a unique product and not a direct copy. And after trying to buy an SW8 dynamic brake conversion I can see why people went to this guy. It's not on their website, so I asked on their facebook page where to get one. I learned that they have them, they sell them at the shows they attend, and never got any clue how I would buy one. Short of, perhaps, driving several hundred miles to one of those shows. I don't feel sorry for these guys, because I still waiting for a rerun of the babyface. They probably could of worked out a deal with big dawg for him to make the shells for them and drop ship them for them and be money ahead. But whatever. That sw8 kit has been off their site for 10 years. I was feeling lucky that I got one when I did. Lol. |
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Post by urr566 on Apr 19, 2018 17:56:04 GMT -8
Its a direct copy of a old Red Ball brass Baldwin DR 6-4-2000, not the ARHS shells kitbashed.
When I questioned the legality of what was being done one time, I got threatened with a lawsuit. I hear thats happened to others as well.
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Post by Judge Doom on Apr 19, 2018 18:10:56 GMT -8
Its a direct copy of a old Red Ball brass Baldwin DR 6-4-2000, not the ARHS shells kitbashed. When I questioned the legality of what was being done one time, I got threatened with a lawsuit. I hear thats happened to others as well. That makes sense. I figured it would be cheaper for him to kitbash two resin shells he already had on hand together, than to go find an old out-of-production brass model, but I suppose someone could have sent it to him pro-bono to make copies from (wouldn't be the first time, it's how he got his paws on those ARHS shells to being with). I've seen him make a number of legal threats and "I've talked with my lawyers" posts as well in the past, notably on the now-departed Big Dawg Originals facebook page. I'm starting to think it might just be a ruse he says to people to try to scare them off (either that, or he's raking in a lot of $$$$ from pirated shells to pay to have a lawyer on retainer  ). |
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Post by bar on Apr 19, 2018 18:24:58 GMT -8
Its a direct copy of a old Red Ball brass Baldwin DR 6-4-2000, not the ARHS shells kitbashed. When I questioned the legality of what was being done one time, I got threatened with a lawsuit. I hear thats happened to others as well. LOL As my lawyer says, "I don't believe in threatening to sue!" |
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Post by theengineshed on Apr 19, 2018 19:08:21 GMT -8
Its a direct copy of a old Red Ball brass Baldwin DR 6-4-2000, not the ARHS shells kitbashed. When I questioned the legality of what was being done one time, I got threatened with a lawsuit. I hear thats happened to others as well. When the Dawg repopped the ARHS shells, I'd had enough, filed multiple fraud complaints, repeatedly, with both Facebook and ebay. That said, as far as I'm concerned, they can cast long extinct brass manufacturers models till hell freezes over. Its just too bad they don't direct their efforts at original high quality shells. When you look at the state of the art resin that's available to military or sci fi modellers, or even HO scale resin freight cars, CMR just does not get my juices flowing. That's too bad for CMR because I'd jump at high quality resin "diesel dinosaurs" in kit form... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 0:35:48 GMT -8
I bought a Proto 2000 SW1200 at Wheaton once for $35. It was new in the box; couldn't beat the price anywhere. As for the Wheaton train show, if the price was reasonably in the cheap mode, you are correct...It sold.
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Post by pokemonprime on Apr 20, 2018 4:52:37 GMT -8
I once asked in his FB group what the basis was for something he made. Wasn't trying to imply he stole the shell, just wondered what it's basis was. I was swiftly kicked from the group, and given a long spiel in Messenger,and told how many people had reported me for trying to stir something up, and how he didn't want this drama again, and how hard he worked just for people to jump all over him. It aggravated me and I only got back into the group on some "last chance" garbage, after apologizing....
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Post by roadkill on Apr 20, 2018 5:16:36 GMT -8
Its a direct copy of a old Red Ball brass Baldwin DR 6-4-2000, not the ARHS shells kitbashed. When I questioned the legality of what was being done one time, I got threatened with a lawsuit. I hear thats happened to others as well. Lawsuitwise Big Dawg (or whatever his current name is) hasn't got a leg to stand on but in all honesty is it a "crime" to copy a body from a company that's been defunct for damn near 50 years? |
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Post by pokemonprime on Apr 20, 2018 6:40:13 GMT -8
Patents from the Red Ball era have 17 years before they expire, so Big Dawg should be plenty fine. Even with modern term of patent he'd be fine. (it increased from 17 years to 20 in 95' to comply with international standard)
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 20, 2018 7:00:04 GMT -8
Not patent, but copyright.
Ed
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Post by steveturner on Apr 20, 2018 7:17:15 GMT -8
Model not very crisp looking and lots of flash etc. Anyone supporting this crap is not doing the hobby any favours. There is always a taker. The ethics of this guy tell a story. he has none.Steve
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Post by pokemonprime on Apr 20, 2018 7:35:23 GMT -8
Not patent, but copyright. Ed If it's copyright then Big Dawg is in far murkier waters. Copyright lasts for an astounding (and rather ridiculous, imo) time. Author's lifespan + 80 years. If the creator of the Red Ball DR 6-4-2000 lived to the average life expectancy of 78 years, then that shell is under copyright for 158 years! |
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Post by bdhicks on Apr 20, 2018 10:35:22 GMT -8
If it is just the Red Ball model that ruins the earlier (false) justification that it's not infringement because it is making substantial change to the original work.
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Post by Artur on Apr 20, 2018 13:22:31 GMT -8
I don’t believe that model railroad manufacturers patent or copyright any of their models.
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). 