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Post by riogrande on Sept 12, 2018 8:23:58 GMT -8
My next contemplation is figure out about going DCC. Now there is a kettle of fish and a hotly debated subject!  |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 12, 2018 10:01:19 GMT -8
There’s a whole forum for DCC discussion.  But there aren’t battles here like there used to be. It’s pretty much settled that DCC here to stay and that most HO model railroaders appreciate the benefits of it. Even the DCC system wars are all but over, with all sides declaring victory and moving on.  |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Sept 12, 2018 11:33:48 GMT -8
And the best system to get is still the one that all your mates or club uses.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 13, 2018 14:16:06 GMT -8
And the best system to get is still the one that all your mates or club uses. That was part of why I bought Digitrax, but in the long run I regret it because I have to be spoon fed every time I use it. Not good and not happy and not user friendly. Just saying... |
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Post by lajrmdlr on Sept 13, 2018 19:32:57 GMT -8
It's called digicrap for a good reason. Sad thing is most people & clubs get so deep into it, they can't afford to buy a better system!
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 14, 2018 7:04:39 GMT -8
Sigh. I thought we were all past this...
riogrande,
What's so hard about it? Push LOCO, enter the address, push ENTER, turn knob, run train. Pretty basic.
lajrmdlr,
I've never heard it called "digicrap"...even on the old Atlas Forum when discussions were, shall we say, more heated. So what's your "better" system? Because no system is perfect; they all have problems.
BTW, is there a reason you decided to post something inflammatory today?
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 14, 2018 7:14:26 GMT -8
Let’s all play N(i)CE....the default system in much of the Southern Michigan area, again, most picking the system as there are several ‘gurus’ and support abounds.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 14, 2018 7:43:56 GMT -8
riogrande, What's so hard about it? Push LOCO, enter the address, push ENTER, turn knob, run train. Pretty basic. It isn't just acquiring a loco, it's having to MU them and all the related stuff. Maybe repetition is needed to drill operations into the memory to remember keystroke sequences. But OTOH, if you have to beat the steps to do various operations into your brain, then at some point you have to ask yourself if the system is working for the way your brain works. I even invested in a DT402 throttle (my Chief system was purchased 20 years ago and came with a less user fiendly DT100 throttle) and worked with a modular club; every time I went to operate, someone would have to set up my MU consist for me and every time I went back weeks or months later, same thing. For me, the system is such that I would need a cheat sheet until I finally memorize all the key sequences. Oh Paul, and BTW, I've heard the same story over the last 20 years from some hobbyists. I remember back when I was thinking about being a computer science major back in the late 1970's that computer programmers write manuals in a certain style, a style that may not be user friendly to non comps sci people. Some have commented that the designer of Digitrax was an electrical engineer, and set up the system with the mind of an EE. But if you don't have a mind like an EE, then those folks often struggle with configuring and using the system. People who think more like an EE, for some reason don't understand why it's so difficult to run the system. Ahem. It reminds me of my math teachers in college, who would look confused as to why some students were having a hard time understanding linear algebra or some concepts in Calculus. My wife is the same way, not good with technical stuff but very good understanding how people think and tick. You get the idea hopefully. That said, I dont' hate Digitrax, and AFAIK it's a good system, but not all systems work for all people. I bought mine about 20 years ago and never really warmed to it. To be fair, I was without a layout much of that time, but even when using it, it's not "clicking" for me. At some time I have to stop resisting the Schwartz and move on. |
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Post by robert72114 on Sept 14, 2018 12:53:14 GMT -8
I believe I wired to go DCC but not ready with engines other than a DCC N scale Bachmann 4-6-0 and not comfortable with the MRC 2000 that I have now. When I am ready NCE Starter sounds good to me as I will not be running more than 4 engines. Am I thinking right?
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 14, 2018 16:42:57 GMT -8
Digitrax MU'ing is not as intuitive as I may like, either, but it's not that difficult as long as you remember that the right knob is always the "Master" or lead unit for any MU and the left knob is always the trailing unit(s). That's pretty much the only part that's not obvious.
Put the lead loco on the right knob. Put the trailing unit on the left knob. Make sure both are going the same direction. Hit the "MU" button and then "+". They are now MU'd together. Simple. To MU another loco into the consist, put the next trailing unit on the left knob, select the direction, and hit "MU" than "+". Repeat as necessary. To remove MU locos, do the same as above but hit "-" instead of "+".
And while remembering which knob is the master and which is the trailing can be a fun, at least Digitrax users don't have to mess around with CV's trying to get lights and sounds to work. For example, when MU'd via Digitrax, a brace of F-units will all make motor sounds together but only the lead unit's air horn will sound when you hit F2. To do that with other systems requires some CV programming.
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 15, 2018 5:56:19 GMT -8
Put the lead loco on the right knob. Put the trailing unit on the left knob. Make sure both are going the same direction. Hit the "MU" button and then "+". They are now MU'd together. Simple. To MU another loco into the consist, put the next trailing unit on the left knob, select the direction, and hit "MU" than "+". Repeat as necessary. To remove MU locos, do the same as above but hit "-" instead of "+". That's the biggest part of the confusion about MUing with Digitrax. Both do NOT need to be going in the same direction. If the trailing engine is facing rearward, you need to change its direction using the direction knob so it's reversed before adding it tot he consist. Otherwise, it will try to run against the other engines that are facing forward. |
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Post by Mark R. on Sept 15, 2018 19:15:59 GMT -8
And while remembering which knob is the master and which is the trailing can be a fun, at least Digitrax users don't have to mess around with CV's trying to get lights and sounds to work. For example, when MU'd via Digitrax, a brace of F-units will all make motor sounds together but only the lead unit's air horn will sound when you hit F2. To do that with other systems requires some CV programming. No CV programming with NCE or ESU systems necessary either. Once the consist is created, just dial up the lead unit (which can be either end) and only the lights / bell / horn will come from that unit, while throttle still controls the entire mu set. Mark. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 16, 2018 6:07:42 GMT -8
bnsf971,
That's what I meant when I said that both engines need to be going in the same direction. Not pointing in the same direction, but physically moving in the same direction.
Mark R.,
All I know is that Model Railroad News used to publish a DCC Column years ago, and some of them were about all the CV's one had to change if you wanted your trailing units to work the way Digitrax systems did by default. I haven't looked into non-Digitrax systems for a while, so if things have changed, I believe you.
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Post by jonklein611 on Sept 16, 2018 8:13:18 GMT -8
And while remembering which knob is the master and which is the trailing can be a fun, at least Digitrax users don't have to mess around with CV's trying to get lights and sounds to work. For example, when MU'd via Digitrax, a brace of F-units will all make motor sounds together but only the lead unit's air horn will sound when you hit F2. To do that with other systems requires some CV programming. No CV programming with NCE or ESU systems necessary either. Once the consist is created, just dial up the lead unit (which can be either end) and only the lights / bell / horn will come from that unit, while throttle still controls the entire mu set. Mark.
Aren't NCE and ESU systems restricted on the number you can assign to a consist, since it uses the CV "hard" consist?
One advantage of the Digitrax consist is the number is the number of the lead loco. Helpful in a club with quite a few consists / members. If you dial up the trailing ones by accident, it shows "Cn" on the screen letting you know to go to the other number.
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Post by Mark R. on Sept 16, 2018 20:43:22 GMT -8
I can't speak for the NCE system, but on my ESU system, there are no restrictions on the number of engines in a consist or the number of consists .... at least I haven't got there yet if there is. Consists themselves aren't assigned a "number" per se. I can dial up ANY engine number that is in the consist and it will control the entire consist - great for out and back runs where the lead unit going out becomes the trailing unit coming back. Just dial up which ever unit is leading and that unit controls the consist and only has control of its own lights / bell / horn.
I can also name my consists using an on-screen keyboard which makes it easier to know what units are in the consist when parked in hidden staging. IF I call up the consist using the name I've given it instead of the lead address number, it WILL send ALL commands (lights / sound) to every unit in the consist.
Based on what others have described to me who have the NCE system, it works in a similar manner, although each consist is assigned a sequential number instead of the ability to give it a user-defined "name".
Mark.
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 17, 2018 2:45:43 GMT -8
And while remembering which knob is the master and which is the trailing can be a fun, at least Digitrax users don't have to mess around with CV's trying to get lights and sounds to work. For example, when MU'd via Digitrax, a brace of F-units will all make motor sounds together but only the lead unit's air horn will sound when you hit F2. To do that with other systems requires some CV programming. No CV programming with NCE or ESU systems necessary either. Once the consist is created, just dial up the lead unit (which can be either end) and only the lights / bell / horn will come from that unit, while throttle still controls the entire mu set. Mark. An exception to this is BLI's proprietary systems. They need to be told via cv settings which engine is the lead unit, or else all the lights will come on, all the bells will ring, and all the whistles will blow in a consist of Paragon 2 and 3 units. |
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 17, 2018 2:48:31 GMT -8
Aren't NCE and ESU systems restricted on the number you can assign to a consist, since it uses the CV "hard" consist? [/div][/quote] NCE is restricted to the amount of consists available, I think it's 126 or so. If you have more than 126 consists on your layout at once, you would have to have a truly massive layout (as well as an even more massive locomotive roster). |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Sept 17, 2018 3:04:51 GMT -8
NCE is restricted to the amount of consists available, I think it's 126 or so. If you have more than 126 consists on your layout at once, you would have to have a truly massive layout (as well as an even more massive locomotive roster). That would make sense as NCE uses advanced consisting as defined by the DCC specification which allows for 127 advanced consisting addresses. This is stored in CV 19: a value of 0 means consisting is disabled; 1-127 are consist addresses; 129-255 are the same consist addresses but indicates that the locomotive is in "reverse" in the consist. |
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Post by Mark R. on Sept 17, 2018 6:10:29 GMT -8
NCE is restricted to the amount of consists available, I think it's 126 or so. If you have more than 126 consists on your layout at once, you would have to have a truly massive layout (as well as an even more massive locomotive roster). That would make sense as NCE uses advanced consisting as defined by the DCC specification which allows for 127 advanced consisting addresses. This is stored in CV 19: a value of 0 means consisting is disabled; 1-127 are consist addresses; 129-255 are the same consist addresses but indicates that the locomotive is in "reverse" in the consist. CV19 has nothing to do with the operating system. CV19 is information stored in the decoder. Both NCE (I believe) and ESU can store made consists in the command station. Making or breaking consists is done in the command station so no programming (CV19) is required to create or break down a consist. If I read CV19 in any of my consisted engines, it would read back 0. Granted you CAN utilize CV19 (advanced consisting) with both systems, but then you also have to get into setting CVs 21 and 22 to tell which units in the consist will have the lights / bell / horn working, and which units are not. ESU and NCE circumvent that programming by doing it internally. The downside to that - especially in a club environment - is that if you take that consist to another layout, the consist wouldn't be recognized and you would just have a number of single controlled engines sitting there. My engines never run any where but home, so that is a non issue for me. IF your consists are going to run on different layouts / systems, then you are going to have to use advanced consisting by taking the time to set up CV19 and possibly CVs 21 and 22 for headlight / bell / horn control of each unit. Really, there's no right way or wrong way, and everyone has their preferences as to how they like to do things. Mark. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Sept 17, 2018 6:44:39 GMT -8
But that's my point, the only "numbers" for consists are 1-126, meaning it can't align with the lead loco's number (typically 4 digit). That's one of the reasons my club went with Digitrax as you can program the consist to the lead engine number. It's not the total number of consists that we care about, it's making it easy for the operators. |
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 17, 2018 7:14:25 GMT -8
The value in cv 19 is the consist address. If you happen to get an engine in a consist that you've forgotten, enter "0" into cv19, so it will operate on its own.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Sept 18, 2018 0:18:19 GMT -8
CV19 has nothing to do with the operating system. CV19 is information stored in the decoder. Both NCE (I believe) and ESU can store made consists in the command station. Making or breaking consists is done in the command station so no programming (CV19) is required to create or break down a consist. If I read CV19 in any of my consisted engines, it would read back 0. NCE systems consist by programming CV19 on the fly. See sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-consisting. |
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Post by nsc39d8 on Sept 18, 2018 10:07:11 GMT -8
I seem to be an oddball as I use CVP EasyDCC and have for over 15 years. It goes by its name and is very easy to use with simple instruction book and is upgradeable at anytime. I have upgraded my cpu board and my wireless system both by myself with some phone instructions. I have had to send on component back one time in this process. CVP supports both consist types and can be done by programming CV's or entering locos into the memory, CVP will tell you though allowing he command station to store locos slows performance. I have not had programming issues with any decoders until the TSU2 which doesn't need a programming booster, so I just removed mine from the programming track everything was fine. I had thought about Digitrax once and called them to ask some questions. First question was what was upgradeable in their system with all the new CV's coming in sound decoders. Their answer was it was programmed in the first unit that was sold, What?  They planned on 29 functions when they first designed the system, yeah right! I have friends that use Digitrax but I generally do not operate on their layouts, if I do I have them program the throttle for me and I just operate the throttle. I also build permanent consists, so I generally only use the high loco number of the consist. This keeps my command station memory free and cuts down on logging all built consists. Service is great! I had a problem with my command station not working properly and one phone call and about 5 minutes of chatting the problem was solved. Simply oxidation on the CPU pins, which CVP says happens in 7 or so years on every console, mine took 15 years. Just my thoughts, |
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Post by ncrc5315 on Sept 18, 2018 14:37:27 GMT -8
I had thought about Digitrax once and called them to ask some questions. First question was what was upgradeable in their system with all the new CV's coming in sound decoders. Their answer was it was programmed in the first unit that was sold, What? They planned on 29 functions when they first designed the system, yeah right! I have friends that use Digitrax but I generally do not operate on their layouts, if I do I have them program the throttle for me and I just operate the throttle. First of all, I don't know why that would be so hard to believe, and why you would just arbitrarily dismiss it. Second of all, I have had my Digitrax system for 17 years, came with a throttle that could access 8 functions. When I purchased my DT400 throttle, I plugged it into the loconet, and could now control functions 0-12. When I purchase my DT402 throttle, I plugged it into the loconet, and had functions 0-29, and at no time, did I ever, have to send in any of the equipment in for an update. So yes, I believe they did have it built in, and more than likely more than that. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 19, 2018 6:38:23 GMT -8
nsc39d8,
The Digitrax communications format allows for any traffic to flow over the LocoNet. It's basically like LAN; it's a peer-to-peer network. Everybody else (NCE, Lenz, CVP, etc.) uses a "master-slave" system, or "polled bus", where the command station constantly asks each device (like a throttle) in turn what they are doing, the device responds. On LocoNet, the device sends the command, and the command station (and any other device) receives it and does what the command says to do.
So, for example, if you monitor the LocoNet and have any throttles plugged in that are doing absolutely nothing (just sitting there), you won't see any traffic over the LocoNet at all except for the time tick once a minute. On any other system, you would see constant traffic over their comms bus as the command station constantly polls each device...even when they're doing absolutely nothing. The more throttles you plug in, the more traffic you'll see on polled bus systems.
What does this mean in regards to extended functions? It means that on a polled bus system, the command station and all the throttles need to know how to ask about extended functions (or any other future features). Upgrades are required each time these other systems come out with improvements. When NCE brought out the radio throttles, you had to get a new chip in your system brain. When F28 became a thing, the NCE brain had to be upgraded again to handle them, and so on.
With Digitrax, the brain itself doesn't need to be updated to handle new features. It's basically the highway...it doesn't matter if it's a brand new sports car or a 30 year old 18-wheeler, it all goes down the highway.
At my club, we've been using Digitrax since 1999. Radio throttles, block detection and Transponding didn't exist, and there were no functions above F8. That same command station today can handle radios (both simplex and duplex), block detection, Transponding, and F28. All you have to do is plug in a device that does these things and it will work.
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Post by nsc39d8 on Sept 19, 2018 6:44:17 GMT -8
I am more inclined to think that Digitrax built the upgrades into the new throttles as they were released. Here is a thought on that, if you can design every option into the computer/logic code then why do we go thru software updates almost monthly? I remember reading thru all the hype about the new power booster(I think) last year that caused many systems to shut down. I was called to help a friend find the short in his system from this.
I have not had to send any equipment back for an upgrade, I have performed them all myself by changing the chip set. The item I sent back was for a repair I couldn't do myself.
I rarely get into these discussions because everyone has their on opinion and just offered mine and an option for someone to explore if they choose.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 19, 2018 11:36:40 GMT -8
James,
Digitrax didn’t build system updates into the throttles as they were released. The system network can handle new features and new throttles without updating the system itself. Think of it like the router for your home network. If you buy a brand new computer or an iPad or a new phone, you don’t have to upgrade your router to handle them all even if the router is years old. The network doesn’t care what is communicating over it as long as it meets the standards. That is not the case with polled bus systems.
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Post by ncrc5315 on Sept 19, 2018 17:17:56 GMT -8
That's kinda of what I was getting at, they built the expandability into the system from the start.
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But there aren’t battles here like there used to be. It’s pretty much settled that DCC here to stay and that most HO model railroaders appreciate the benefits of it. Even the DCC system wars are all but over, with all sides declaring victory and moving on. 
