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Post by fr8kar on Dec 18, 2018 0:52:32 GMT -8
I know next to nothing about passenger trains. What I do know is that if I had to model a passenger train, it would be Amtrak 21, the Texas Eagle. In my modeled era, Amtrak used Superliners and former Santa Fe El Capitan cars on the Texas Eagle. I see that Walthers, Con Cor and Kato all make Superliners. Who does the best job in terms of running quality, fidelity to the prototype and finish of the car? John Carr's website has a couple pages that show 21 in my area during the time I'm modeling: www.carrtracks.com/txDal20.htmwww.carrtracks.com/Dallas_Union_Station.htmCan anyone give me an idea of the cars I'll need to model a typical Texas Eagle in the late 80s? Also, are there any resources to help me learn about this train during the late 80s, such as photos, consist information, and so on? |
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Post by trainguy99 on Dec 18, 2018 4:47:29 GMT -8
Craig Sanders' excellent book Amtrak In The Heartland has a chapter on the Eagle. It includes a lot of info on operations and some consist info, but not a lot of photos.
You would probably be more satisfied with either the Walthers (look for the later runs because they have added features over the years) or the Kato cars. The later Walthers cars are plated. I don't think any of the Kato cars are plated but they are very good models also. The Con Cor cars are pretty basic models.
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Post by riogrande on Dec 18, 2018 5:00:05 GMT -8
The Walthers and KATO cars are both pretty good. Concor are more crude, and IIRC, the corrugations around the sides at the top are incorrect or missing; add to that they have completely incorrect trucks.
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Post by slowfreight on Dec 18, 2018 5:08:33 GMT -8
Often good to start digging here: passcarphotos.rypn.org/Sadly, it seems Jim LaBoda has passed away since I visited last, but someone is keeping the site alive. Your hi-level cars would obviously come from the Walthers El Cap cars, but per usual Walthers failed to release them in any paint schemes people wanted. My expectation would be that the plated Walthers Superliners would be a better starting point for you than Kato. I'm sure the Kato cars have great detail from the sill up but would need lots of detailing underneath. Plus, you'll have to give them Alclad finishes to really capture the look. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Dec 18, 2018 5:09:44 GMT -8
It really is a tossup between Walthers and Kato. I'd avoid the Con Cor's at all costs.
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Post by drolsen on Dec 18, 2018 5:55:48 GMT -8
While the Kato models are nicely finished, I’m afraid I won’t even consider them based on the complete lack of an end sill on the model, which gives them a Lionel train set-like appearance:  However, Ryan, I’m sure that you can design and print an excellent replacement end sill if you want to. The Walthers model has a simple end sill that captures the basic structure and includes mounting locations for HEP cable receptacles. I just don’t think there’s any excuse for Kato not including those. I think maybe they just “blew up” their N scale design. The Walthers model:  Ryan, keep in mind that there are both P-S Superliner I and Bombardier Superliner II cars on the rails today, but the Superliner IIs didn’t appear until 1991, so make sure you use the Superliner I models. Walthers offers both versions; Kato produces Superliner Is (and a Superliner II Transition Sleeper). I have the fantastic book, _Amtrak By the Numbers_, which is a huge collection of data an photos of Amtrak equipment. I’ll see what they have about the Eagle. I caugh that train in Taylor, TX in 2010. I have some detail photos of the Superliner HEP connections here: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=54661Dave |
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Post by riogrande on Dec 18, 2018 7:05:42 GMT -8
I have been interested modeling the Amtrak California Zephyr of the early-mid 1980's, which of course, limits me to the Superllner I cars. The identifying feature of Superliner II cars is the truck stabilizer bar attached to the side sill above the truck, something the Superliner I cars do not have.
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Post by drolsen on Dec 18, 2018 7:28:09 GMT -8
That’s correct, Jim, along with the GSC truck seen here (although I believe some of these trucks were retrofitted onto a few Superliner Is):  Here’s the original style of truck on the Superliner I:  The original trucks have been rebuilt with a traditional coil spring in the center of the side sill. As-delivered, they had an air bag in the spot where the coil spring is. Walthers produced the “as-delivered” air bag-equipped truck, but their product photos all seem to show the rebuilt version with the coil spring. Something to keep in mind if you really want to model the early Superliners correctly, although I don’t know when exactly the truck rebuild took place. I’ll see if I can find out. Edit: Here’s a photo from the Amtrak Photo Archives of a Superliner I in San Antonio in 1983. You can see the donut-shaped air bag in the middle of the truck sideframe: www.hebners.net/Amtrak/amtSUPER/amt32030L.jpgDave |
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Post by The Ferro Kid on Dec 18, 2018 11:48:15 GMT -8
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Post by fr8kar on Dec 18, 2018 15:32:15 GMT -8
Thank you all for the information. There's a lot here to go over. Dave, the idea of making new end sills for the Kato model is intriguing. I'd like to see these models in person before I buy anything, so I'll try to track some down.
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Post by slowfreight on Dec 18, 2018 16:28:34 GMT -8
The Kato design requirement has always been for 14" radius curves, hence no end detail and a long swinging drawbar coupler. The C&NW bilevels had the same setup, and I built a bunch of extra detail to fill the missing gaps. Have never gotten around to posting photos, come to think of it.
I feel the Walthers cars had more detail, but the Kato cars had better rendered detail when included.
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Post by lvrr325 on Dec 19, 2018 1:04:49 GMT -8
Were some early Walthers releases of these cars prone to having slightly warped bodies?
I vaguely remember something about this but as it's not something I model I don't recall the specifics.
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Post by riogrande on Dec 19, 2018 1:40:43 GMT -8
Were some early Walthers releases of these cars prone to having slightly warped bodies? I vaguely remember something about this but as it's not something I model I don't recall the specifics. Yes. I don't remember the specifics either. |
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Post by Funnelfan on Dec 19, 2018 3:35:17 GMT -8
I went the Kato route myself and have been happy with the cars. It was largely due to the availability of the Phase 3 paint scheme. I do have a Walther MHC cars and a Intermountain step-down coach dorm (like one that just sold on E-bay for $205). I also have three Kato F40's for power.  |
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Post by The Ferro Kid on Dec 19, 2018 3:41:01 GMT -8
Were some early Walthers releases of these cars prone to having slightly warped bodies? I vaguely remember something about this but as it's not something I model I don't recall the specifics. That was in the early 2000s. Long since corrected, although some could still be floating around in the secondary market. Googling "Walthers warped superliners" turns up some discussion on Trainorders.com. |
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Post by riogrande on Dec 19, 2018 3:59:53 GMT -8
Nice winter scene Ted!
AFAIK, I haven't seen Intermountain produce a phase III paint ex-ATSF step-down coach yet as used on the Amtrak California Zephyr throughout the 1980's. I'd like to see one of those come out to go with my early 1980's Amtrak CZ, which had phase III paint F40PH's, and phase III paint baggage and stepdown coach, but all the Superliners were still in phase II paint (gradually being repainted to phase III during the mid 1980's.)
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Post by trainguy99 on Dec 21, 2018 17:59:44 GMT -8
I think the cars offered by IM were actually Train Station Products cars that IM had assembled.
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Post by GP40P-2 on Dec 21, 2018 18:38:34 GMT -8
I think the cars offered by IM were actually Train Station Products cars that IM had assembled. Which were also sold as Detail Associates cars... |
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Post by Funnelfan on Dec 24, 2018 2:13:25 GMT -8
One of those Phase 3 Intermountain/Train Station Products step down coach-dorm cars just sold for $205 on Ebay. And my car is in better shape than the one that sold on E-bay shown below.  |
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Post by fr8kar on Dec 24, 2018 4:51:20 GMT -8
I found a couple of those Train Station Products kits on ebay, but they are just body and floor kits. Do the assembled Intermountain versions come with interiors? How do they compare to the Superliners from Kato and Walthers in terms of running quality and finish?
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Post by riogrande on Dec 24, 2018 5:35:16 GMT -8
I found a couple of those Train Station Products kits on ebay, but they are just body and floor kits. Do the assembled Intermountain versions come with interiors? How do they compare to the Superliners from Kato and Walthers in terms of running quality and finish? I had a silver ATSF TSP kit I originally bought with thoughts of removing the lettering and converting to Amtrak. I sold it a few months ago. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 25, 2018 21:50:21 GMT -8
I found a couple of those Train Station Products kits on ebay, but they are just body and floor kits. Do the assembled Intermountain versions come with interiors? How do they compare to the Superliners from Kato and Walthers in terms of running quality and finish? According to Intermountains site they do come with interiors. |
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Post by drolsen on Dec 26, 2018 5:07:12 GMT -8
Were some early Walthers releases of these cars prone to having slightly warped bodies? Yes, that’s correct, the original run had an issue with warping when they coooled after coming out of the mold. The bodies were bowed upward in the middle, and it was painfully obvious when you saw how the (straight) Amtrak stripes lay along the bowed body. Some people tried to say at the time that the real cars have a slight bow also, but it was much too extreme on the model. They fixed it for the second release, although they still appeared to have a very slight curve to them (which is sort of prototypical). The other issue in the early runs, which continued into the second release, I think, was that they glued the window inserts into the car body. That was kind of an issue with the undecorated cars, since you couldn’t remove the inserts for painting, without of lot of scraping and prying, damaging the windows in the process. Back then, Walthers customer service was actually pretty responsive, and they actually kept spare parts in stock. I corresponded with them about the problem, and they ended up sending me a replacement set of windows for the ones that I cracked while breaking the glue bonds and prying them out. Up until Walthers started plating their Superliners, they didn’t come with interiors. That’s been kind of an issue for me, because I wanted to use undecorated cars as a starting point so I could detail the cars ends. I also thought the chrome-like plating looked terrible. They’ve improved it, but I still think painting them with Alclad paints would look a lot better. I tried to get them to sell the interiors separately, but they modified the window inserts to accommodate the interior components when they started including them, so they parts weren’t backwards compatible with earlier models. That wouldn’t have stopped me, but I can understand them not wanting to sell them separately. My Superliner project has been on hold for years, but I picked up a couple cheap plated cars, such as the lounge with its large windows that show off the interior, and I plan to swap the windows and interiors into the undecorated car bodies. I was going to make separate simplified interiors for some of the cars, since things are hard to see through the tinted windows anyway. Dave |
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