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Post by onequiknova on Aug 26, 2012 7:33:43 GMT -8
This is the part of the build I've been dreading since I started. Hacking up an expensive, hard to find frame. BLI obviously put no thought into ever deskirting their E units, so in order to get any depth above the fuel tank, you've got to remove material from the frame. This is what it looks like "out of the box". The photo makes it look like there's more depth that there really is. The sides of the tank are actually flush with the raised ridge on the frame. Here's the frame striped bare. (A feat unto itself.) I want to take the frame down to the bottom of the fuel tank mounting clip channel, plus another .010-.015" past that. Any more and you'll open a hole up into the motor mount cradle. I don't own a mill, so I'll have to do this the hard way, with a Dremel cut off wheel and a mill file. Those two little holes lead into the motor cradle and the wall there is maybe .015" thick after machining. There is still plenty of meat around the cradle, so no integrity was lost here. With the fuel tank back on, I have around .100" relief now. I'd prefer more, but at least I can add a top to the tank and add fuel and water fillers now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 9:14:18 GMT -8
Is the notch in the fuel tank done by factory to clear the engine room steps?
On the prototype there is no notch.
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 26, 2012 9:42:54 GMT -8
Is the notch in the fuel tank done by factory to clear the engine room steps? On the prototype there is no notch. Yup. I think the tank is too wide, so they notched it to compensate. I plan to narrow the tank so I can fill them in.
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Hergy
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Post by Hergy on Aug 26, 2012 10:35:52 GMT -8
Great thread, John. I love to see threads like this. Always learn some new techniques.
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 26, 2012 11:36:48 GMT -8
Since it's a rainy Sunday, it's a good time to sit at the work bench. Now that the frame is milled down, I need to rework the fuel tank. I started by adding .320" to the length of the tank since the Rock Island eliminated the rear air tank, most likely for added fuel capacity. I would normally use a section from another tank since this tank has alot of curved going on, but try finding a BLI E8 fuel tank. I ended up shaping it from styrene. I also narrowed the tank .020" so I could eliminate the notches for the steps. I made new end sheets from .020" styrene so I could achieve the slight slope to the top of the tank and a .040" filler was added along the top sides of the tank to take up the space that was milled out. It still needs some filler work before I can prime it.
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 26, 2012 12:51:22 GMT -8
One more detail I wanted to show on the fuel tank deals with the air tank. Like previously stated, the Rock Island E8's only had a front air tank, but it wasn't standard either. It appears shorter than a standard tank and off set to the conductors side of the locomotive. Earlier in it's life there was some sort of box hanging in the left over space on the engineers side, but it has since been removed by the era I'm modeling. I reused the stock air tank after taking 2 scale feet from the middle. I also shaved off the molded piping and drilled it for brass wire.
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Post by rockisland652 on Aug 26, 2012 13:55:52 GMT -8
One more detail I wanted to show on the fuel tank deals with the air tank. Like previously stated, the Rock Island E8's only had a front air tank, but it wasn't standard either. It appears shorter than a standard tank and off set to the conductors side of the locomotive. Earlier in it's life there was some sort of box hanging in the left over space on the engineers side, but it has since been removed by the era I'm modeling. I reused the stock air tank after taking 2 scale feet from the middle. I also shaved off the molded piping and drilled it for brass wire. I never noticed that RI E-8's didn't have the second air tank. She...looks...amazing. ...675, eh? lol
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 26, 2012 15:23:49 GMT -8
One more detail I wanted to show on the fuel tank deals with the air tank. Like previously stated, the Rock Island E8's only had a front air tank, but it wasn't standard either. It appears shorter than a standard tank and off set to the conductors side of the locomotive. Earlier in it's life there was some sort of box hanging in the left over space on the engineers side, but it has since been removed by the era I'm modeling. I reused the stock air tank after taking 2 scale feet from the middle. I also shaved off the molded piping and drilled it for brass wire. I never noticed that RI E-8's didn't have the second air tank. After looking a more pictures, I'm starting to think I jumped the gun on eliminating the rear air tank. Maybe it should be there. I've got a picture here that makes the tank look like it goes all the way to the rear truck. I guess that's what I get for working from slight 3/4 view. Oh well, back to the work bench.
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 26, 2012 16:11:48 GMT -8
Sorry about that one guys. I was seeing something that just wasn't there. At least I found it before I painted it. Everything besides lengthening the tank and the missing air tank still applies. Here's the modified, modified tank.
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Post by roadkill on Aug 27, 2012 15:56:24 GMT -8
Looking really good. Getting a lot of ideas to use on the two BLI E8s I'm building for the Erie Lackawanna.
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 27, 2012 18:05:33 GMT -8
The shell is finally ready for paint. All I have left to do now is detail the fuel tank. I worked on the side frames today. The Rock Island seemed to change bearings as often as I change underwear, so it was hard to nail down an exact match, but It's a pretty good representation of what may have been on 654 at any given time in the mid 70's. I used D/A Hyatt and slopped bearings for replacements. The original trucks had sloped outer journal boxes with square center boxes. The only square box left is the one with the speed recorder. And a few pics of the finished body. A couple small notes: I removed most of the lip inside the upper headlight in order to fit a Highliner dual beam head light casting inside. I left just enough of the lip to set the "glass" against. You can see the lip in older photos in this thread. I also removed the shelf inside the number board openings. Reason being, the number board glass was missing from the kit, so I had to make my own from clear plastic which was thicker than the originals. In order to get a flush fit I had to remove that shelf.
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Post by drolsen on Aug 28, 2012 4:26:44 GMT -8
Wow, that looks awesome, John! One of those models where it almost seems like a shame to paint it and cover up all that great detail, but I can't wait to see the final painted model.
I'd love to have an excuse for an E8. Probably the best I could do would be to model one of the ex-BN units used by MARC in the early '90s. One thing this thread of yours has done is show me what the BLI model looks like. I honestly had never really given it a second thought just because I didn't need any. I think it does a great job of capturing the lines of the prototype, especially with the additional parts from Highliner, DW, and other manufacturers.
Dave
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 28, 2012 12:44:22 GMT -8
Thanks Dave. The BLI nose looks pretty good overall to my eyes as well. Not quite Highliner, but pretty good in it's own right. It's definitely the best E8 to date. Luckily they're doing another run, because these things are hard to find. Forget trying to get an undec. This may be the last one for sale in the country.
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Post by rhpd42002 on Aug 28, 2012 15:27:17 GMT -8
That's going to be one SHARP looking loco when done! Excellent progress pics.
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Post by drolsen on Aug 28, 2012 23:02:31 GMT -8
Forget trying to get an undec. This may be the last one for sale in the country. Have you (or anyone else) tried stripping the paint off one of these in the past? I figured an undec would be hard to come by, so I thought I might eventually just look for the best deal I could find. I tried stripping one of their H2a hoppers a few years ago, and while the paint came off the metal parts, it wouldn't even budge on the the plastic body itself. I figure I'll eventually have to grit blast it. I hope their diesels aren't that tough... Dave
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 29, 2012 3:41:13 GMT -8
Forget trying to get an undec. This may be the last one for sale in the country. Have you (or anyone else) tried stripping the paint off one of these in the past? I figured an undec would be hard to come by, so I thought I might eventually just look for the best deal I could find. I tried stripping one of their H2a hoppers a few years ago, and while the paint came off the metal parts, it wouldn't even budge on the the plastic body itself. I figure I'll eventually have to grit blast it. I hope their diesels aren't that tough... Dave Not personally, but I've read they strip just fine in an alcohol bath. If you go that route, steer clear of the Pennsy units with the roof antennas. Too many holes to fill.
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Post by rockisland652 on Aug 29, 2012 5:14:30 GMT -8
Have you (or anyone else) tried stripping the paint off one of these in the past? Like most plastic diesels, BLI units strip nicely in 91% alcohol. Soak the shell for a while, then hit it with an old toothbrush to knock off the loose paint. Kelley Duford used a gun cleaning brush with good results as well. Just watch for any loose details you might need later, as they can go out with the rinse. Using the 91% alcohol bath, I recently stripped an Athearn unit and the factory paint came off in sheets. Seems to be your best bet, if you ask me.
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Post by rockfan on Aug 29, 2012 6:50:06 GMT -8
Dont know about BLI but I know Atlas, and I think P2K usually have undecs available when they do new runs of locos.
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Post by drolsen on Aug 29, 2012 6:59:15 GMT -8
They must have used a different type of paint on the older H2a hoppers, because I used the standard 91% alcohol bath (from a new, freshly-opened bottle) on the one I wanted to strip, and it barely wrinkled the paint on the plastic surfaces, while it stripped it off most of the metal components (grab irons and interior slope sheets). Glad to hear that the diesels are easier to strip - that will give me more options if I decide to build an E8. Dont know about BLI but I know Atlas, and I think P2K usually have undecs available when they do new runs of locos. Actually, now that I checked their website, I see that they are listing undec E units for Feb 13 delivery - E8s both as a single A and in an A-B set. Dave
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Post by rockfan on Aug 29, 2012 7:25:24 GMT -8
Who P2K or BLI? Before Walthers bought P2K parts dept was awesome.
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Post by drolsen on Aug 29, 2012 7:42:29 GMT -8
Sorry, I meant BLI - they're showing undecs as part of the new run of E6/7/8s due in Feb 13. That might mean they'll have parts available too, such as spare fuel tanks for John's "un-kitbash." I know that they have some parts available, but they appear to sell out a little while after a particular model is released (I was trying to get some spare AC6000CW sideframes a while back, but they were out of stock - I'm about to try again).
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2012 7:49:39 GMT -8
Dont know about BLI but I know Atlas, and I think P2K usually have undecs available when they do new runs of locos. I asked the owner of my LHS to ask his Walthers rep when they planned on releasing the re-tooled E8/9 in undecorated. The answer is there are no plans to issue the model unpainted. Instead Walthers is doing one road runs of the E8/9. (To date - UP, PRR, Amtrak and SP 6051). Walthers has big time production problems in China. The last E9 model done by Walthers was SP #6051. The models dribbled in to Milwaukee over a few month period. In that time some dealers received partial orders and some dealers received NO models until the last of the partial shipments was received last month. Its a mess.
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Post by drolsen on Aug 29, 2012 8:03:50 GMT -8
I asked the owner of my LHS to ask his Walthers rep when they planned on releasing the re-tooled E8/9 in undecorated. The answer is there are no plans to issue the model unpainted. Jim - That might be a good excuse for me to bite the bullet and buy an undecorated BLI E8 from the next run. I really don't need one but would like to support a company that continues to offer undecorated diesel models. It looks like a nice model from watching John's project progress. Plus I've always wanted to model one of the ex-BN units that lived out their last days pulling MARC computer trains in Maryland (not sure who to credit for this photo): farm4.staticflickr.com/3620/3679307885_153152c9d9_o.jpgThere's some crazy stuff on the roof of this one that I can't identify, and the paint job is a disaster of patchwork (even when they were in better shape in MARC service in the '90s), but I still love the classic EMD lines. Dave
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2012 10:25:39 GMT -8
I asked the owner of my LHS to ask his Walthers rep when they planned on releasing the re-tooled E8/9 in undecorated. The answer is there are no plans to issue the model unpainted. Jim - That might be a good excuse for me to bite the bullet and buy an undecorated BLI E8 from the next run. I really don't need one but would like to support a company that continues to offer undecorated diesel models. It looks like a nice model from watching John's project progress. Plus I've always wanted to model one of the ex-BN units that lived out their last days pulling MARC computer trains in Maryland (not sure who to credit for this photo): farm4.staticflickr.com/3620/3679307885_153152c9d9_o.jpgThere's some crazy stuff on the roof of this one that I can't identify, and the paint job is a disaster of patchwork (even when they were in better shape in MARC service in the '90s), but I still love the classic EMD lines. Dave The trouble with the BLI unit is.................its a Broadway Limited product! I looked at the announcement and I'll believe the E9's are being produced when they are actually in stock. BLI history dictates that the delivery dates must be random numbers. The big thing for me is the Paragon 2 sound. The shell also isn't as versatile as the Proto. Just my personal opinion.....I'd buy one of the Amtrak Proto units released a few months ago and strip it. Its got the passenger pilot and no dynamic brakes. You can replace the nose door with a Highliners nose door (no headlight). The P2K has worked on the windows and nose and if you buy a sound unit, it has a dual 567 (E-unit) sound board which powers a pair of speakers.
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Post by rockisland652 on Aug 29, 2012 11:04:14 GMT -8
The trouble with the BLI unit is.................its a Broadway Limited product! I looked at the announcement and I'll believe the E9's are being produced when they are actually in stock. BLI history dictates that the delivery dates must be random numbers. The big thing for me is the Paragon 2 sound. The shell also isn't as versatile as the Proto. Just my personal opinion.....I'd buy one of the Amtrak Proto units released a few months ago and strip it. Its got the passenger pilot and no dynamic brakes. You can replace the nose door with a Highliners nose door (no headlight). The P2K has worked on the windows and nose and if you buy a sound unit, it has a dual 567 (E-unit) sound board which powers a pair of speakers. While I agree that BLI's delivery dates are mere suggestions, I would ask the readers to look at the model that John made from the BLI E-8. Is that versatile enough for ya? The BLI nose is much more correct than any P2K. Yes, even the newer ones with the squared off cab windows. Without final paint, John's #654 already looks like she has a date with the Silvis paint booth. Though no one has to date produced any E unit with a nose as correct looking as the Highliners or Intermountain F unit, BLI has some the closest, as John's impeccable work reveals. The other issue is the sound. As many of you have read my tired drivel in the past, QSI has yet to understand how to make a sound decoder actually produce locomotive sounds, particularly in the most used sound: the prime mover. Pitch bent, dual UFO sound in stereo is still not dual 567s done correctly. You have only one option: Yes, The E unit Tsunami. Now now now...you Tsunami naysayers cannot even use the motor control argument any more, as that one has an easy solution available on the Tony's Trains website.
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Post by roadkill on Aug 29, 2012 13:49:04 GMT -8
Forget trying to get an undec. This may be the last one for sale in the country. Have you (or anyone else) tried stripping the paint off one of these in the past? I figured an undec would be hard to come by, so I thought I might eventually just look for the best deal I could find. I tried stripping one of their H2a hoppers a few years ago, and while the paint came off the metal parts, it wouldn't even budge on the the plastic body itself. I figure I'll eventually have to grit blast it. I hope their diesels aren't that tough... Dave I stripped an L&N grey E8 and a Wabash E7 in Scalecoat Wash-a-way and it worked well. I recently acquired a Milwaukee yellow and grey unit but have yet to dump the shell in the strip tank.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2012 14:32:21 GMT -8
The other issue is the sound. As many of you have read my tired drivel in the past, QSI has yet to understand how to make a sound decoder actually produce locomotive sounds, particularly in the most used sound: the prime mover. Pitch bent, dual UFO sound in stereo is still not dual 567s done correctly. Which is a BIG problem for the BLI unit as it comes with the Paragon 2 sound which is nothing to write home about. They ARE NOT offered in standard DC/DCC ready which means you are paying for BLI's QSI lite sound system. I also don't fathom why they don't offer up an undecorated that has the option of nose headlights, dynamic brakes and number of steam generators. Most people are not whizz bang body and fender people. So why not offer all the parts BLI? You have only one option: Yes, The E unit Tsunami. Now now now...you Tsunami naysayers cannot even use the motor control argument any more, as that one has an easy solution available on the Tony's Trains website. I agree about the Tsunami, smartest move Walthers has ever made on the Proto line. But its getting expensive when you pay $268 + another $120 for the Tsunami. Even if you get the BLI unit for a decent price, I don't like spending money for something I don't want.....Paragon 2 sound!
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Post by buffalobill on Aug 29, 2012 17:12:34 GMT -8
Jim: I agree with Tom, as John's work shows, you can build a very credible model out of the BLI- E-8's. Even after my less than thrilling experience with Broadway Engines, I sold both of the units I previously had, because of the electronics interface with my clubs system. I am seriously thinking about buying two to build a pair of BN E-9-AU's. John has done an excellent job of crafting an exquisite model of a unique Prototype. To a far greater extent than I have been able to successfully do to date. I appreciate his postings and they make a great road map and set of instructions. He is a Craftsman. This time I will replace the Broadway electronics. Even though I agree with you that we should not be forced to.
Now would some one come out with a Budd Prototype Bi- Level coach and cab in Plastic. I don't have the patience to do what John did to the Island Model Works car.
Bill
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Post by drolsen on Aug 30, 2012 1:42:37 GMT -8
The BLI nose is much more correct than any P2K. Yes, even the newer ones with the squared off cab windows. Without final paint, John's #654 already looks like she has a date with the Silvis paint booth. That was kind of my thoughts too. While I can definitely see the improvements Walthers has made to their E8, it still looks to me like the nose drops off too sharply on the sides at the outside corners of the windshield. The BLI nose just looks more correct to me - it jumped out at me in the most recent shots that John shared of the model with all the details added, ready for paint. I can't say that I have much first-hand experience with E-units, but it just looks better, based probably on the F-units that I've seen more frequently. I certainly wish that BLI offered a non-sound version of the model, because I really haven't delved into sound yet, and I'd rather start with a cheaper model and then add the sound system that I want (maybe in a few more years as the quality improves. Anyway, I'll just have to think about it and decide which approach to take when (if?) the BLI model shows up at my dealer. Dave
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 6:06:03 GMT -8
A few years ago, I was at a layout with Paul Lubliner (Highliners) and I had a BLI E8 with me....we looked at it for a very looooooong period and he pronounced it as the best he had seen so far of all the E units produced....and I agreed.
I have tried to get top quality E units produced over the years and the BLI is as close as we are going to get in this lifetime. I know of one already to go in a CAD package complete with mold inserts to do any variation of the E 8/9.....the tooling and first run will take big bucks and NO one will put up that kind of money now with the BLI and Walthers units out. I have shopped almost all major and minor manufacturers to no avail.
The Walthers NEW E 8/9 is much improved, but, still needs help in certain areas to bring it up to what most of us on these forums want. Problem is, that they pretty much sell out.....no matter what....and the money just will not be allotted to fix some of the most glaring of issues.
E units are my favorites.....I ran em', rode in em', railfanned em' and it is a frustration that they are not represented better in model form.
I have over 30 of them in my workshop....P2k, BLI, Walthers, Orientals, Overlands and I have done so many mods to them to make them closer to the prototype and I am almost done with a lot of them as such. I have ordered a bunch of the BLI units from the next run and will modify them and live with them.
The new Plano grills are a HUGE improvement for the Walthers / P2k and yes, they also fit the BLI units......the BLI's are more dimensionally correct in this area and the Plano grills are slightly smaller in size. Until someone has a better idea or closer etching, it is all I can do.
Keith Turley The Original Whistle Stop Pasadena, California
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