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Post by csx3305 on Mar 3, 2019 11:40:00 GMT -8
Honestly? I think Athearn is being bundled up for sale. Just my opinion. Dave Interesting observation! If so, hopefully not to Atlas or Walthers -- they have too much to manage already. If I could rub a magic lamp and make it happen, I'd want to see the Genesis GP38-2/GP40-2/GP39-2 tooling go to Scaletrains. Talk about an ideal situation... |
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Post by carrman on Mar 3, 2019 11:47:20 GMT -8
My biggest gripe with Athearn is errors like hot water cab heater louvers on a model that had electric cab heaters when Athearn has the correct mold slides to use! They did this kind of thing on the last run of SP GP40X's when they put standard 1 piece under cab doors on when previous runs had the correct SP split doors. I'm not asking for new molds to be made, I'm asking for the right ones already made to be used!
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Post by carrman on Mar 3, 2019 11:49:31 GMT -8
Honestly? I think Athearn is being bundled up for sale. Just my opinion. Dave Interesting observation! If so, hopefully not to Atlas or Walthers -- they have too much to manage already. Walthers doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together, and Atlas seems to be moribund as a company. Dave |
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 3, 2019 11:54:47 GMT -8
My biggest gripe with Athearn is errors like hot water cab heater louvers on a model that had electric cab heaters when Athearn has the correct mold slides to use! They did this kind of thing on the last run of SP GP40X's when they put standard 1 piece under cab doors on when previous runs had the correct SP split doors. I'm not asking for new molds to be made, I'm asking for the right ones already made to be used! The only excuse, other than incompetency, would be if the "correct" insert/mold was damaged and the incorrect piece was substituted to make a shipping date. Neither is acceptable, and I'm not sure which I'd be more understanding of. |
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Post by roadkill on Mar 3, 2019 12:35:48 GMT -8
Thats is why you do what allot of people do; Don't use your real name or give it info. I have lots of "real life" friends that use a play on their first name to meet the "first and last name" requirement, and lots of "online" friends that don't use anything close to their real name. Yep. Did that. In 2016 I created an email address at gmx.com, that is not in any way associated with any information connected to another account. In other words no phone number or email address was provided for backup. I used the pseudonym he6agon in order to create a Facebook account of the same name so I'd have an online presence for my 3D printing efforts. I had never been on Facebook prior to this point and to my knowledge neither my home email account nor the Gmail account I use for work had ever been used on Facebook. A couple days later I opened up the newly created he6agon Facebook page on my phone and within a few minutes Facebook notified me that all of my contact information was being uploaded. My phone is synced to my Gmail account, not the gmx.com account, so I don't understand how it could be confused that I had provided consent for this to occur. I watched in horror as my stored phone numbers, email addresses, notes, mailing addresses, etc. were being uploaded while I stood in the mall waiting for my wife to try on shoes. I immediately deleted Facebook from my phone and contacted Facebook to delete my account. I have not been back and I will not return. Again, it may be fine for some people but I will never use it again regardless of the benefit. YMMV. Yet another reasom\n why I still use a flip phone. |
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Post by csx3305 on Mar 3, 2019 13:08:35 GMT -8
Atlas seems to be moribund as a company. It appears to me that Atlas hooked their foot into the proverbial Ottoman with the Sanda Kan drama, but unlike Dick Van Dyke they haven't yet found the living room floor. For example, there was that run of 8-40CW that was delayed, if I remember right, over two years while the mess was sorted out, and it seemed that the downtime on the sidelines cost Atlas their lead on market share. That was the same run that came with cheap motors IIRC. At least two key employees have left for greener pastures in recent years. IMO, they are barely an afterthought nowadays, ten years ago they were the top of the heap. |
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Post by markfj on Mar 3, 2019 13:54:45 GMT -8
CSX3305, you’re making a lot of sense to me:
“If I could rub a magic lamp and make it happen, I'd want to see the Genesis GP38-2/GP40-2/GP39-2 tooling go to Scaletrains. Talk about an ideal situation...” I agree, and I’m sure we would get the issue with missing door fixed on the GP39-2 tooling.
Probably a long shot though.
“IMO, they are barely an afterthought nowadays, ten years ago they were the top of the heap.” Agree again and it’s a puzzler why or how that happened. Atlas just seemed to be ok taking a backseat.
It will be interesting to see what happens with Athearn this year and into 2020. I’ve worked at enough companies to know that where there is smoke (i.e. layoffs of key personnel), there is fire (i.e. a big restructuring or sale of the company). I saw this many times in the electronics industry during the late 80s to early 90s.
I wish all involved good luck.
Mark J.
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Post by marknycfan on Mar 3, 2019 15:48:15 GMT -8
I wonder how the owners of Athearn, Atlas and Walther's would respond to hearing all this gossip about their financial states
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Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 3, 2019 15:54:52 GMT -8
You could ask them.
Ed
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Post by brakie on Mar 3, 2019 15:58:24 GMT -8
I suspect if any company can buy Athearn it would be Walthers or Atlas.
Wild cards would be MTH or Broadway Limited.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2019 17:58:37 GMT -8
Oddly, the model photos on the Athearn website typically are of the left side, 3/4 view, so the offending louvers, of course, are/were not shown.
I was able to find enough photos of real SD-50's, including the units Athearn actually modeled, to verify that yes, indeed, the incorrect louvers are there on the latest run model, and should not be.
Yes, it's annoying. QA/QC gone wrong, or as they say at my work "opportunity for improvement". (I hate political correctness)
However, my son loves them and won't care so I won't bother mentioning it to him. I don't want to "steal his joy" and make him unhappy with the models. I've got other Athearn engines that seemingly offer "worse" omissions than that. Is it disappointing, yes, slightly, but I think there's bigger fish to fry elsewhere.
Regarding the apparent love some have for other, newer, manufacturers...I just don't get it. For the products I was interested in, some of them have not actually delivered any better, imo, regarding QA/QC than Athearn, but my opinion is definitely in the minority. Nobody is perfect.
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Post by Judge Doom on Mar 3, 2019 18:50:22 GMT -8
Atlas seems to be moribund as a company. It appears to me that Atlas hooked their foot into the proverbial Ottoman with the Sanda Kan drama, but unlike Dick Van Dyke they haven't yet found the living room floor. For example, there was that run of 8-40CW that was delayed, if I remember right, over two years while the mess was sorted out, and it seemed that the downtime on the sidelines cost Atlas their lead on market share. That was the same run that came with cheap motors IIRC. At least two key employees have left for greener pastures in recent years. IMO, they are barely an afterthought nowadays, ten years ago they were the top of the heap. The funny thing is Atlas bought out all of Walther's N-scale offerings and tooling almost a year ago. How much they'll run with it remains to be seen, but they have bought out BLMA and Branchline in recent years past as well. |
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Post by brakie on Mar 3, 2019 19:25:58 GMT -8
Atlas introduce some new N Scale of late while buying up Walthers N and have bought BLMA and Branchline.. I wouldn't count Atlas out or a weak company since their engines is still selling.
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Post by 12bridge on Mar 3, 2019 20:54:17 GMT -8
Atlas introduce some new N Scale of late while buying up Walthers N and have bought BLMA and Branchline.. I wouldn't count Atlas out or a weak company since their engines is still selling. I don't count Atlas out of the game, but they certainly are not the Atlas they used to me. It seems like they never fully recovered after the previous round of China issues. I have said it before, and will say it again. Atlas needs to wake up and start doing proper road specific details, as well as ditch lights, if they plan to stay in the game. Just about every modeler I speak to agrees with me on this one. They rode the success of their drive being the selling point too long. |
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Post by valenciajim on Mar 3, 2019 21:24:56 GMT -8
I think Craig Walker was formerly of Microscale prior to working for Athearn. The parts/warranty person being laid off is the biggest possible red flag here. Honestly? I think Athearn is being bundled up for sale. Just my opinion. Dave This does not surprise me either. We are nearing the end of a long economic cycle and model railroading is a competitive business with a lot of players. If I was a financial owner (as opposed to a labor of love owner), the coming months may be a good time to sell. I think many industries, including the one we love to talk about, will see consolidation in the next economic downturn. Since most of the model railroad companies are private and do not publicly share financial data, it is hard to determine who operates from relative strength. I think the Chinese factory closures hit some importers hard in the wallet. Since this topic is not exclusively HO related, I am surprised this thread has not been moved to another forum. |
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Post by csx3305 on Mar 3, 2019 21:53:51 GMT -8
Atlas introduce some new N Scale of late while buying up Walthers N and have bought BLMA and Branchline.. I wouldn't count Atlas out or a weak company since their engines is still selling. I don't count Atlas out of the game, but they certainly are not the Atlas they used to me. It seems like they never fully recovered after the previous round of China issues. I have said it before, and will say it again. Atlas needs to wake up and start doing proper road specific details, as well as ditch lights, if they plan to stay in the game. Just about every modeler I speak to agrees with me on this one. They rode the success of their drive being the selling point too long. I honestly wasn’t even thinking financially when I made my Ottoman comment, I was thinking more in terms of reputation for innovative and exciting new product. It used to be fun to see what they would put out next, I can remember the excitement for the GP40-2 as an example. Contrast that with the NJ commuter train or whatever it was. Bracketed by the endless reruns of the same old designs. Having said that, I am anxious to see the new pellet hopper, and will likely buy whatever schemes are appropriate for 1993, if any. |
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Post by brakie on Mar 4, 2019 2:31:14 GMT -8
Guys,Maybe Atlas is selling to those that don't want the fine detail or like me having to rebuild a Genesis GP9 from the frame up including a Kato motor, better sound decoder and LEDs. I'm yet to find the need to rebuild a Atlas engine. Hell, even my old Atlas/Kato and LL P2K engines is superior to my mind then those chancy Athearn RTR engines.
As far as I know Athearn has never address their QC/QA issue that's why I will not buy one of those beautiful "Topeka cab" GP7u that I've been wanting since I seen a photo of the prototype years ago in Trains Magazine.
And that's what saddens me about today's Athearn..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2019 9:10:54 GMT -8
Larry--
Is there some issue with the Topeka cab GP7u's? I have two of them (ATSF as rebuilt, non-patched) and they seem to be fantastic and also road number specifically correct. Is there something I missed? They are light in weight and the instructions tell you they are fragile. You can't grab them at the fuel tank or you could break skirting. The fuel tanks are smaller... They do not pull what an SD-50 or SD45T-2 would pull, but they will run exceptionally well with other newer Athearn units (produced during last couple years) in plain dc mode, both Genesis and rtr models. It's not like several years back when each Athearn unit ran at a different speed out of the box...not like that at all.
Am I a bit disappointed that the SD-50 has the wrong front cab wall on the latest run? Sure.
But then again, I didn't pay a Genesis price, either. They are at least $50 below the (street) Genesis price point. If I try to think objectively, some of the Athearn rtr engines provide a whole lot of good detail, even road specific detail, at a price less than some of the less detailed competition.
In the case of the SD-50's, it appears they got a cab front wall wrong, and they didn't bother to provide the see-through steps of the Genesis models, and I'm not sure the walkway treadplate is quite what it's supposed to be, but other than those issues, they have correct horns, light arrangements, etc. versus some competitors' engines that will not have the same details at that price point. They do not have lift rings. The handrails are much nicer than comparably priced "Trainman" series units. From ScaleTrains description of "operator" units, I suspect that at least some of the Athearn rtr series actually offers more than ScaleTrains Operator Series does.
Individual Athearn diesels are detailed out to different levels, so it is hard(er) to do an "apples to apples" comparison between rtr series and Operator Series or Trainman Series units.
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Post by brakie on Mar 4, 2019 9:45:09 GMT -8
SF2158,First after the Geneses GP9 incident I'm gun shy of Athearn Genesis products and RTR.
As far as the ST "Operator Series" SD40-2 that I own I just added plows mu hoses and uncoupling bars and its good to go. I don't own any Trainman engines but, I'm sure they can be detailed like my SD40-2.
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Post by gevohogger on Mar 4, 2019 10:47:20 GMT -8
Honestly? I think Athearn is being bundled up for sale. Just my opinion. Dave This does not surprise me either. We are nearing the end of a long economic cycle and model railroading is a competitive business with a lot of players. If I was a financial owner (as opposed to a labor of love owner), the coming months may be a good time to sell.
I am certain that within five years, at least one of the "major players" in the hobby will be gone. I have my suspicions who it might be; for now we wait and see.
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Post by brakie on Mar 4, 2019 11:59:46 GMT -8
This does not surprise me either. We are nearing the end of a long economic cycle and model railroading is a competitive business with a lot of players. If I was a financial owner (as opposed to a labor of love owner), the coming months may be a good time to sell.
I am certain that within five years, at least one of the "major players" in the hobby will be gone. I have my suspicions who it might be; for now we wait and see.
There's at least two players that seems to have stagnated over the past few years. These two companies came on strong and must have ran out of diesel fuel over the past few years. I think I know who the next two or three fallen flag of the hobby will be... |
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Post by valenciajim on Mar 4, 2019 16:27:59 GMT -8
I am certain that within five years, at least one of the "major players" in the hobby will be gone. I have my suspicions who it might be; for now we wait and see.
There's at least two players that seems to have stagnated over the past few years. These two companies came on strong and must have ran out of diesel fuel over the past few years. I think I know who the next two or three fallen flag of the hobby will be... Many industries are facing a wave of consolidation. Fragmented industries such as the model railroad businesses will see players merging to achieve economies of scale. New players will show up and provide new competition. The Model Railroad industry faces many of the same issues that others do in the global environment. Technology is a huge disrupter. Having to deal with China places an enormous amount of stress on companies. The industry will continue to evolve. |
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Post by brakie on Mar 4, 2019 17:53:59 GMT -8
Jim, I will clarified my "fallen flags".. Like you say I fully believe those weaker companies will be bought and folded into another company.
There will be marketing adjustments.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2019 21:12:39 GMT -8
I agree there will be manufacturer "adjustments" and buyouts. There always have been; just some of us choose to forget.
I once thought Canadian Model Trains was a great dealer, might even be one of the last brass dealers standing...and they are long gone. They always treated me fairly and worked very hard to make me happy on every transaction. Sadly that did not continue...
Remember Diesel Consignment? Good for awhile. Sadly the owner, Jolute, who was a nice man and always very helpful to me, allegedly took his own life far too soon. I will never understand why...
I won't speculate as to which manufacturers are going to go next; some of them are my friends, and I don't want to adversely influence anything like that.
What happened with Athearn Genesis GP9's? Apparently I failed to get the memo?
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Post by brakie on Mar 5, 2019 2:59:42 GMT -8
Jim,My SCL GP9 started with the bulbs burning out so,I had them replaced with LEDs and after that the decoder went bad and the motor never did seem that good.
After buying a Kato motor and a ESU loksound decoder my brother-in-law did the installation..
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Post by riogrande on Mar 5, 2019 4:29:47 GMT -8
] I am certain that within five years, at least one of the "major players" in the hobby will be gone. I have my suspicions who it might be; for now we wait and see.
Since you've laid the gauntlet, who is going to be gone in 5 years since you've thrown it out there. Seriously. |
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Post by gevohogger on Mar 5, 2019 8:52:22 GMT -8
] I am certain that within five years, at least one of the "major players" in the hobby will be gone. I have my suspicions who it might be; for now we wait and see.
Since you've laid the gauntlet, who is going to be gone in 5 years since you've thrown it out there. Seriously. People make crazy claims on here all the time and I'M the one who gets challenged? LOL!!!! |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 5, 2019 8:57:51 GMT -8
Since you've laid the gauntlet, who is going to be gone in 5 years since you've thrown it out there. Seriously. People make crazy claims on here all the time and I'M the one who gets challenged? LOL!!!! Inquiring mind(s) want to know!  |
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Post by valenciajim on Mar 5, 2019 9:28:37 GMT -8
I don't think we know who will be gone and who will survive or in what form companies survive, but it is a safe bet that someone major won't survive as an independent enterprise. These companies are privately owned and don't share financial or market share information publicly, so picking winners and losers is a guess. Furthermore, there are unpredictable external forces that will affect the future of many companies--including those in our favorite industry. But, I'll admit it sure is fun to speculate!
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Post by riogrande on Mar 5, 2019 10:30:38 GMT -8
Single owner companies seem to be the most prone to closure or buyout, unless there is some sort of succession plan built in. Walthers seems to have passed the reins down through family generations with Bill founding the company and passing it to Bruce and later Phil. Most recently Phil's daughter Stacy became president in 2018.
Of course Irv Athearn passed away in 1991 and was continued by new owners (unnamed in the Wiki) and Horizon Hobbies took Athearn over in 2004 so it is not a single owner company at present, but of course could be sold to others by Horizon.
Is Atlas single owner? There is a narrative of succession on their wiki.
Some other "major players" are single owner such as Tangent; Rapdio and ExactRail too?
Single owner seem to be more vulnerable to eventual closure without a succession plan, but it seems all companies can be sold and acquired. *shrugs*
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