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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2020 14:44:33 GMT -8
Rapido sold out of the first run of NP boxes, and is doing another run.
Rapido is doing USRA boxes, a goodly number of which numbered far fewer than these Santa Fe cars.
What if Rapido had announced this project? Would that have been a fail, after the above?
If Prototype Junction's project doesn't take off, is that necessarily because modelers are not interested, or is it because modelers aren't interested in becoming investors?
Ed
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Post by mdvle on Jan 30, 2020 15:22:40 GMT -8
If Prototype Junction's project doesn't take off, is that necessarily because modelers are not interested, or is it because modelers aren't interested in becoming investors?
Or, and somewhat more likely, it is very difficult to get the word out about the project to enough people in 30 days.
Even being at Springfield only gets you at best 20,000 people which isn't much in this hobby.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2020 16:11:45 GMT -8
Ah, so they didn't get the word out, enough.
They're 2/3 through their time, with 6% of the money. Wild guess is that they might get 12%. Which would mean they would have had to have contacted 8 times as many people, with the same interest level.
Wonder what they'll do next.
Ed
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Post by sd80mac on Feb 1, 2020 9:08:45 GMT -8
Crowd-funding is definitely something that resonates more with the younger, and subsequently more modern, modelers. If this were a post-1980 boxcar, covered hopper or tank car that had never been done before, I think they would be getting closer to their goal.
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Post by rhammill on Feb 6, 2020 21:35:22 GMT -8
I suspect too many people in the hobby have been burned with similar types of "pay well in advance" arrangements in the past and don't want to be burned again. We've all heard the stories and the passage of time doesn't put the lost money back in our pockets. That. And they're looking to raise a quarter of a million dollars in 30 days. At $50 each (which puts them at the higher end of the RTR boxcar market with prices between those of Tangent and Moloco), they would need to sell a cool 5000 units... I think they're extremely out of touch with reality. Actually, at True Line our best selling run was the CP Minibox, a single prototype with a few paint schemes, and sold nearly double that. With this project, we need to sell fewer than 400 units per prototype, and that’s part of why we think the business model is viable. Obviously we have some to do, but I’m not concerned about the total number of units itself. We, of course, are quite familiar with losing money on preorders (Darren may differ in his opinion, but to me the amount of money we lost when CMT folded was the start of a long, slow death). That’s why we are insisting we are either fully funded, or we don’t do it. Again, not everybody may agree with me, but with what I know, cash flow was the problem for that and many other failures. If you take partial payment, but run out of money before the project is completed, then everybody us screwed. We’re not willing to take that chance, because we take the fact that we’re asking other people to put up their money very seriously. The money we raise is to produce the cars, period. And it’s the full amount needed to see the project from start to finish. We know that won’t convince everybody, and that’s OK. Randy — Randy Hammill Prototype Junction Http://prototypejunction.com
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Post by rhammill on Feb 6, 2020 21:39:07 GMT -8
well, I had thought about this, but the only car on the list that I could really use in 1969 would be the Bx11/12 w raised roof and I have a Westerfield kit for this in the stash... If there would be some real commitment to the Bx85/86, things might be different... Bernd Adelsdorf, Germany The steel side rebuild would also be appropriate and has never been released in resin, plastic, or brass. Just sayin’ We’re happy to add the Bx-85/86, but we’ve got to fund the project first. Randy — Randy Hammill Prototype Junction Http://prototypejunction.com
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Post by westerntrains on Feb 7, 2020 8:22:11 GMT -8
I just don't think modelers funding a project is realistic. There are many cars I would like made but I just can't fund a car on a maybe, if, and a might. If Scaletrains approached their models n this manner, I think nothing would have been made. The problems Rapido has had with their models shows me the gamble is too great. If you beleive in your models, put your money on the line. If the model is well done, it will sell out. If it's not well done, it will be a 8 page plus dicussion on this board.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 7, 2020 17:21:50 GMT -8
I just don't think modelers funding a project is realistic. There are many cars I would like made but I just can't fund a car on a maybe, if, and a might. If Scaletrains approached their models n this manner, I think nothing would have been made. The problems Rapido has had with their models shows me the gamble is too great. If you beleive in your models, put your money on the line. If the model is well done, it will sell out. If it's not well done, it will be a 8 page plus dicussion on this board.
Regardless what you think, the crowd funding method works. It has produced a number of rail models in the UK, and has produced a lot of things in other hobbies and areas of interest - otherwise sites like Indiegogo wouldn't exist.
It is very easy to for someone to say put your money on the line*, another thing entirely for someone (or 2 people in this case) to come up with the large amount of money that needs to be paid up front. Yes, some have done it, though I suspect you will find in many cases they had people putting up money in the background because "they believed in them".
* despite what some may think, it is a reasonable guess that Randy and his partner have put money and time into this. They have done the research and the legwork to find a viable group of similar prototypes, and they have done the work to get quotes on costs, they have researched how to fund the project, they have paid to promote it (going to Springfield for example likely isn't free).
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 7, 2020 17:56:22 GMT -8
Perhaps Randy and his partner should study how the Brits did it. And do THAT.
Ed
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Post by valenciajim on Feb 8, 2020 0:36:58 GMT -8
Well they are running out of time. This was an interesting concept. I wonder what the differences are between this program and the successful programs in the UK.
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Post by westerntrains on Feb 8, 2020 16:57:13 GMT -8
I just don't think modelers funding a project is realistic. There are many cars I would like made but I just can't fund a car on a maybe, if, and a might. If Scaletrains approached their models n this manner, I think nothing would have been made. The problems Rapido has had with their models shows me the gamble is too great. If you beleive in your models, put your money on the line. If the model is well done, it will sell out. If it's not well done, it will be a 8 page plus dicussion on this board. Regardless what you think, the crowd funding method works. It has produced a number of rail models in the UK, and has produced a lot of things in other hobbies and areas of interest - otherwise sites like Indiegogo wouldn't exist. It is very easy to for someone to say put your money on the line*, another thing entirely for someone (or 2 people in this case) to come up with the large amount of money that needs to be paid up front. Yes, some have done it, though I suspect you will find in many cases they had people putting up money in the background because "they believed in them".
* despite what some may think, it is a reasonable guess that Randy and his partner have put money and time into this. They have done the research and the legwork to find a viable group of similar prototypes, and they have done the work to get quotes on costs, they have researched how to fund the project, they have paid to promote it (going to Springfield for example likely isn't free).
Didn't say crowd funding funding doesn't work.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 8, 2020 18:12:05 GMT -8
Regardless what you think, the crowd funding method works. It has produced a number of rail models in the UK, and has produced a lot of things in other hobbies and areas of interest - otherwise sites like Indiegogo wouldn't exist. It is very easy to for someone to say put your money on the line*, another thing entirely for someone (or 2 people in this case) to come up with the large amount of money that needs to be paid up front. Yes, some have done it, though I suspect you will find in many cases they had people putting up money in the background because "they believed in them".
* despite what some may think, it is a reasonable guess that Randy and his partner have put money and time into this. They have done the research and the legwork to find a viable group of similar prototypes, and they have done the work to get quotes on costs, they have researched how to fund the project, they have paid to promote it (going to Springfield for example likely isn't free).
Didn't say crowd funding funding doesn't work.
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your "I just don't think modelers funding a project is realistic" as you don't think crowd funding works.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 8, 2020 18:25:33 GMT -8
Well they are running out of time. This was an interesting concept. I wonder what the differences are between this program and the successful programs in the UK.
Primarily more time (30 days is just too short for a market like model trains where getting the word out is difficult), and the benefit of fewer web forums - there is one main web forum covering the UK market (RMweb) making it much easier to reach potential online customers).
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Post by mdvle on Feb 8, 2020 18:34:26 GMT -8
Also note, per their website and the IndieGoGo page, they have extended the project for another 30 days.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 8, 2020 20:03:40 GMT -8
UK market also benefits from small geography combined with limited prototypes (side effect of one railway from 1948 to late 90s, and the sort of commoditization of the real think in the last 20 years).
This means fewer items to choose from, and greater possible interest in them thanks to common railway.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 7:14:58 GMT -8
I hope these guys succeed...because we (modelers) could try a similar approach to do some cars that would fill a void for a lot of us in HO...that might otherwise not get made. I think they are trying to do too much right off.
And, we don’t have to chase the manufacturers down and keep asking for their blessing.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 9, 2020 11:50:49 GMT -8
I hope these guys succeed...because we (modelers) could try a similar approach to do some cars that would fill a void for a lot of us in HO...that might otherwise not get made. I think they are trying to do too much right off. And, we don’t have to chase the manufacturers down and keep asking for their blessing.
There are a lot of items that could be made with crowd funding that would be either considered too risky to invest in by a mainstream RTR manufacturer, or that are not viable in the traditional form where wholesale and/or retail take a cut of the price.
Just consider all the items that are frequently requested / hoped for on this and other forums, and what a historical society or other group could achieve.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 12:01:35 GMT -8
Yes...precisely. A group of us could pool our resources and crowd fund for a car or series of cars...
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Post by westerntrains on Feb 12, 2020 17:40:55 GMT -8
Yes...precisely. A group of us could pool our resources and crowd fund for a car or series of cars... I remember the train person at Longs Drugs partnered with Intermountain to create the Santa Fe reefers. I can see crowd funding to do this with an existing manufacture.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 18:40:15 GMT -8
Bingo
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Post by mdvle on Feb 13, 2020 7:31:34 GMT -8
Yes...precisely. A group of us could pool our resources and crowd fund for a car or series of cars... I remember the train person at Longs Drugs partnered with Intermountain to create the Santa Fe reefers. I can see crowd funding to do this with an existing manufacture.
This is exactly how the first/one of the first UK crowd funding ventures worked - Revolution Trains (2 guys with a desire for primarily N scale items with full time jobs outside of model trains) partnered up with Rapido Trains to have Rapido make the Virgin Train Pendolino.
It is a viable option, just as much as someone with the experience and contacts in China can go direct to a factory.
The big thing is that the North American hobby simply needs to make that first big step to getting one project done to demonstrate that the process works.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 23, 2020 7:38:43 GMT -8
For those interested or unsure about supporting some unknowns, Randy has appeared on a special version of A Modelers Life with Lionel Strang, posted today.
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Post by NS4122 on Feb 23, 2020 9:42:56 GMT -8
While there is little doubt that crowd funding works in many cases, the first prerequisite for crowd funding is having a “crowd” to solicit funds from. In this case, how many modelers do you think are out there that are in dire need of these 1930’s era cars and want to pay to see them made? So far there are 147 people who have pledged $20,535 to the project, which averages out to approximately $140 per person. To meet the 250K goal they need 1639 more people to pledge $140 each or an even much larger number more to pledge smaller amounts. Even though Santa Fe is popular, this car fits such a small niche in the model RR market, I don’t really see this happening.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 24, 2020 6:46:37 GMT -8
While there is little doubt that crowd funding works in many cases, the first prerequisite for crowd funding is having a “crowd” to solicit funds from. In this case, how many modelers do you think are out there that are in dire need of these 1930’s era cars and want to pay to see them made? So far there are 147 people who have pledged $20,535 to the project, which averages out to approximately $140 per person. To meet the 250K goal they need 1639 more people to pledge $140 each or an even much larger number more to pledge smaller amounts. Even though Santa Fe is popular, this car fits such a small niche in the model RR market, I don’t really see this happening.
I wonder if one of the problems is that many, like you appear to have, looked and saw ATSF and looked no further. Or saw 1930s, and looked no further.
Because it isn't just a set of ATSF boxcars, it is also a Rock Island boxcar and 3 different Auto Cars - L&N, CGW, and Pere Marquette.
And while they are 1930's era built, they lasted well into the still popular transition era and in some cases beyond.
While I agree that it doesn't look good for this particular attempt, there really isn't any specific reason this couldn't be a success - the number of cars they are looking to produce isn't that unreasonable when you consider how many people are in this hobby.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 24, 2020 8:54:56 GMT -8
And yet, "just a set" of NP boxes sold out at Rapido. Old pre-transition wood-sided ones.
And those ARE only Santa Fe Northern Pacific.
Ed
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Post by NS4122 on Feb 24, 2020 11:09:48 GMT -8
Sure they sold out, but do you think they would have been made at all if Rapido required a couple of thousand people to plunk down $100 up front (remember this is not a preorder) just to get them made and be able to buy them at a discount when they were produced? And yet, "just a set" of NP boxes sold out at Rapido. Old pre-transition wood-sided ones. And those ARE only Santa Fe Northern Pacific. Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 24, 2020 12:12:30 GMT -8
Sure they sold out, but do you think they would have been made at all if Rapido required a couple of thousand people to plunk down $100 up front (remember this is not a preorder) just to get them made and be able to buy them at a discount when they were produced? And yet, "just a set" of NP boxes sold out at Rapido. Old pre-transition wood-sided ones. And those ARE only Santa Fe Northern Pacific. Ed They MIGHT have, because Rapido is an established company that has been making well-received product for years. But. I don't see ANY company that has no tooling, product, or capital pulling it off. It is interesting to note that, had the funding goal been reached, there was NO guarantee you'd ever get a car. Or even, if you did, the car would be worth a damn. Or, of course, your money back, as it would have been spent. Ed
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Post by mdvle on Feb 24, 2020 14:16:13 GMT -8
Sure they sold out, but do you think they would have been made at all if Rapido required a couple of thousand people to plunk down $100 up front (remember this is not a preorder) just to get them made and be able to buy them at a discount when they were produced? Um, I think you are more than a bit confused about this crowd funding thing, in that it can be considered a variation of a pre-order where you pay in full in advance.
Where exactly are you getting the idea that you pay $100 up front and then buy later at a discount?
If you go to the IndieGoGo page you see that the various offers are all based around receiving 1 or more actual cars.
So for example for $47 you can get one car, or for $90 you can get 2 cars, etc.
Yes, you pay up front, but if the project gets fully funded then you get the number of cars you have paid for when the project is finished.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 24, 2020 14:29:06 GMT -8
Sure they sold out, but do you think they would have been made at all if Rapido required a couple of thousand people to plunk down $100 up front (remember this is not a preorder) just to get them made and be able to buy them at a discount when they were produced? It is interesting to note that, had the funding goal been reached, there was NO guarantee you'd ever get a car. Or even, if you did, the car would be worth a damn. Or, of course, your money back, as it would have been spent.
Look, I don't know Randy other than to say I am aware that he worked for/with True Line Trains in the past prior to the owner running into cash flow problems.
And there are certainly risks involved in crowd funding, so if the money is needed for food or rent/mortgage it likely isn't a great idea to invest as there are those risks.
Yet despite that IndieGoGo and Kickstarter have both been successfully operating for over 10 years now, and a lot of products have been delivered that otherwise would be unlikely to get the funding required to turn them into an actual physical product. So it does more often that not work out successfully for both the promoter and the person putting money in.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Feb 24, 2020 14:44:54 GMT -8
Yes, you pay up front, but if the project gets fully funded then you get the number of cars you have paid for when the project is finished. If the project gets finished. It wouldn't be the first crowd-funded project that blew the crowd-funding and had no product to show for it.
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