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Post by el3672 on Apr 2, 2020 18:49:53 GMT -8
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Apr 2, 2020 23:45:16 GMT -8
No.
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Post by Christian on Apr 3, 2020 0:51:20 GMT -8
Nope
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Post by Gary P on Apr 3, 2020 1:57:57 GMT -8
IMO, no. However I do think there needs to be more checking. Check for contaminants in food and other products, pet products included. Real checks, not just "rubber stamp approval" stuff.
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Post by Judge Doom on Apr 3, 2020 2:31:22 GMT -8
Try telling Wal-Mart that. Model train-wise, not doing business with China because the whole world caught their bad virus (or bio-weapon, depending on the shade of your tinfoil hat) still doesn't address the problems with manufacturing, labour and pricing costs associated with "re-shoring" model train manufacturing back to North America. Until a viable and practical solution is devised and proven, model trains will continue to be made in China well into the future. Other things like medicines and essential health and medical supplies are definitely best re-shored, at least partially to maintain some manufacturing ability here in case China isn't able to fulfill foreign needs in a time of crisis (or their Communist government chooses not to). This pandemic might serve as a wake-up call to those in the government, drug manufacturers and those involved in healthcare systems that the over-reliance on foreign production to cut costs is all well and fine in times of abundance, but things can quickly go south when times get tough, supplies run low and demand gets high.
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Post by jonklein611 on Apr 3, 2020 4:22:07 GMT -8
Nope. We truly have a global economy. We all rely on everyone for goods and services.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Apr 3, 2020 6:57:49 GMT -8
If we're keeping this topic strictly focused on model railroading (which I hope we do), then the simple answer is no. Chinese-made products has given us the hobby we all enjoy today. Without them, we'd be back in the 1980's with Athearn BB kits, Stewart kits, Bowser kits (hmm...I see a pattern), and a limited selection on model types and paint schemes. In yon olden days, you'd have to wait years between new engine releases and, once released, every engine would have the same number on it for decades. And realistic was just code for, meh, close enough. Judge, We can't "re-shore" model railroad manufacturing because it wasn't really here in the first place.
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Post by jonklein611 on Apr 3, 2020 7:15:16 GMT -8
If we're keeping this topic strictly focused on model railroading (which I hope we do), then the simple answer is no. Chinese-made products has given us the hobby we all enjoy today. Without them, we'd be back in the 1980's with Athearn BB kits, Stewart kits, Bowser kits (hmm...I see a pattern), and a limited selection on model types and paint schemes. In yon olden days, you'd have to wait years between new engine releases and, once released, every engine would have the same number on it for decades. And realistic was just code for, meh, close enough. Judge, We can't "re-shore" model railroad manufacturing because it wasn't really here in the first place. I was always impressed with Athearn BB's as a kid. They were made from blueprints! Said so right on the box. I just didn't know they were not prototypical blueprints...
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Post by Judge Doom on Apr 3, 2020 10:41:48 GMT -8
Judge, We can't "re-shore" model railroad manufacturing because it wasn't really here in the first place. I know, I know, just sayin'... I was always impressed with Athearn BB's as a kid. They were made from blueprints! Said so right on the box. I just didn't know they were not prototypical blueprints... I guess it doesn't pay to count your chickens before they're hatched, cough cough "straight DD40" cough cough cough. Nice try to get a scoop on the market Irv, better luck next model. (Although being released when it was, it no doubt sold for the cool factor, and may have been the closest thing to a UP DD35A someone could get back then).
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Post by riogrande on Apr 3, 2020 12:13:47 GMT -8
Blue box were cool as a kid but times have changed. There were lots of things that were cool back when we were kids and well, pong was pretty cool but try to get today's kids to tear themselves away from the Xbox to play pong!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 18:30:25 GMT -8
Judge, We can't "re-shore" model railroad manufacturing because it wasn't really here in the first place. I know you are being a bit facetious, but: Ouch. Tell that to Kadee, Mantua, Athearn, MDC?, Bowser, Hobbytown, Cary, Stewart (for at least awhile), Weaver, Williams, Selley, Cal-Scale, Arbour Models, E&B Valley, and actually once upon a time, Lionel, and the others I'm forgetting. Funny, I used to sell Athearn products to customers in the train store, over the cheap trainset brands, by telling them the Athearn actually was made in the USA, the drive mechanism was relatively bulletproof (ok, may growl by today's standards, but they lasted), and we would "always" have parts. I never once dreamed the day would come when "always" would no longer be true. We also had so many Mantua (and also Rivarossi) parts, including bodies, you could have built any engine you wanted just from the parts in the drawers--but it would have cost enough such that you wouldn't actually want to do that. Every once in awhile I miss my Athearn Santa Fe "U30B" that Santa Fe never actually owned. It ran very well for the time, and every once in awhile I contemplate picking one up, just for the memories. I do actually have one old original release Stewart "chicken wire" PRR F3 that I picked up recently nos. There were a whole lot of roadnames Athearn made that didn't actually exist. We never bothered to count them all up. I can be all picky about what I want to buy today, but we had too many fun evenings in those years just running what was available then. America seemed simpler then. I didn't worry about the road specific details that weren't on the engines, but just ran the trains, often with Dad. I vividly remember Athearn's original release of the GP38-2 and how much nicer they were than some of the fat hoods. Sitting here writing this I wish I could go back to that 22" radius spaghetti bowl layout my Dad and Grandpa and I built. My scenery may be technically a little better today, but everything was just more fun then. (Our cat eats the scenery now or tries to, including ripping out part of my HO pumpkin patch and individual corn stalks).
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Apr 3, 2020 21:06:55 GMT -8
qcm79, Other than Kadee, none of those US manufacturers made quality RTR models like the Chinese do. US companies either made kits or junk (or junky kits). They usually made a bunch of generic parts, painted them in whatever scheme looked cute, threw 'em in a box, and sold 'em to you. You were happy to have it, but that's because there was nothing else (other than foreign-made brass). When I was a kid before I got my driver's license, I had saved up enough money to buy a new loco. I wanted NH (even then) but the local hobby shop didn't have any. So I bought an Athearn Santa Fe GP7 because it was the same paint scheme as my dad's ancient Athearn GP30. Sure, I was happy to get the GP7 at the time, but darn disappointed that he had no New Haven models. The only choice I had was to buy non-NH or nothing. That's a lousy choice.
Assembling models was not something American manufacturers have ever done much of. You can't "bring the jobs back here" when they weren't really here in the first place. In 1989/90, China created the marketplace we enjoy today. Certainly US companies weren't doing it very well by themselves; the best locos of the 1980's were made in Japan (Kato) or Austria (Roco). Quick, name the best American-made HO RTR locomotive. Athearn BB's don't count as they are all kits. Bowser? Kits. Stewart? Kits. MDC? Kits. Cary, Hobbytown, Penn Line, Varney, Mantua, etc.? All kits.
As for the good old days, that's nostalgia talking. A common human problem is to only remember the good things and forget about the bad things. The hobby wasn't better back then; it was far, far worse. I remember how bad it was in the 1980's. My dad is a model railroader, too, and I grew up with it. Rivarossi steam engines with giant flanges that didn't pull well and ran terribly with their 3-pole motors. Mantua steamers and spending a lot of time riveting your own valve gear only to get a poor running engine as a result. Sintered metal wheels that threw sparks. Banging on the table to get locos to run on brass track. Cleaning track with chemicals you wouldn't touch without a respirator today. Buying a Bowser H16-44 only to realize that there's no way to get working headlights and there were no end windows on the cab...either end. How many articles were written about fine-tuning your Athearn models? I had two different books with tips and tricks on doing just that. You know what I haven't seen today? A book on how to get any modern loco model to run better -- because it's just not needed. Scenery material was plaster of paris, lichen, grass mats or sawdust died green. Electronics were analog nightmares and every layout was wired differently to the point one needed lessons on how to run a cab on a someone else's layout before you could move any engine.
The idea that "America was simpler back then" is hooey. Every single generation says that about their past. All of them. No, it wasn't simpler; it was different, but it wasn't any simpler. You just don't remember the troubles, anxieties, insecurities, and other issues of the times, or you were unaware of them. As they say, ignorance is bliss...
If you're not having as much fun today as you did back then in this hobby, that's on you, man. Personally, I am having an awesome time in this hobby these days (well, other than losing hobby friends due to diseases and not going to my club these days because of social distancing). It's pretty much a model railroading golden age as far as I'm concerned where I can get just about any model I want, I'm designing one of the largest layouts in the country, and I coordinate operation sessions with over 20 people.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 3, 2020 21:12:55 GMT -8
Slam dunk Paul!
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Post by brakie on Apr 4, 2020 2:44:23 GMT -8
Blue box were cool as a kid but times have changed. There were lots of things that were cool back when we were kids and well, pong was pretty cool but try to get today's kids to tear themselves away from the Xbox to play pong! Jim, As you know BB locomotives and freight cars are still with us as Roundhouse RTR.. Some BB engines is still cool like the supped up SW1000 , SW1500, GP38-2,GP40-2 and of course the SD40-2. Heck, I still get a kick out of switching cars with my old BB GP7 or GP35.. I'm beginning to think I enjoy operating those engines because they remind me of pleasant hobby memories and the various clubs I been a member of over the years.
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Post by thunderhawk on Apr 4, 2020 9:13:47 GMT -8
Quick reply-yes
Of course a simple answer like that will bring long missives defending doing business with a communist dictatorship that has millions of Uighers in "re-education" camps and harvests the organs of dissidents. As long as we have our perfect little road specific trains it's all good, right?
And then will come the tired "YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM IN THE USA FOR THE SAME PRICE!"
Nope, probably not. Take a look at a globe however. There are 195 countries and I find it hard to believe not one of them other than China can build model trains. eta-China had to learn how to make them too you know. And still screw them up often enough.
Guess what. They are not the only country that can build model trains. Other manufacturers, non US manufacturers, do in fact makes trains in countries other than China. It would be wise for some of these current outfits to look elsewhere for their manufacturing as this shitshow isn't over by any means.
eta-Calling a BB SD40-2 a kit is a stretch. I guess some really don't have any inclination to do any modeling at all.
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Post by loco8107 on Apr 4, 2020 9:17:31 GMT -8
If we're keeping this topic strictly focused on model railroading (which I hope we do), then the simple answer is no. Chinese-made products has given us the hobby we all enjoy today. Without them, we'd be back in the 1980's with Athearn BB kits, Stewart kits, Bowser kits (hmm...I see a pattern), and a limited selection on model types and paint schemes. In yon olden days, you'd have to wait years between new engine releases and, once released, every engine would have the same number on it for decades. And realistic was just code for, meh, close enough. Judge, We can't "re-shore" model railroad manufacturing because it wasn't really here in the first place. Very true but we had more undecs back then 😂
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Post by loco8107 on Apr 4, 2020 9:22:14 GMT -8
Blue box were cool as a kid but times have changed. There were lots of things that were cool back when we were kids and well, pong was pretty cool but try to get today's kids to tear themselves away from the Xbox to play pong! Jim, As you know BB locomotives and freight cars are still with us as Roundhouse RTR.. Some BB engines is still cool like the supped up SW1000 , SW1500, GP38-2,GP40-2 and of course the SD40-2. Heck, I still get a kick out of switching cars with my old BB GP7 or GP35.. I'm beginning to think I enjoy operating those engines because they remind me of pleasant hobby memories and the various clubs I been a member of over the years. The BB models were and are still a great start to building one yourself and for less money. Athearn back then really stepped up the game with the GP38-2/40-2 and SW1500/1000 releases. And I do miss the old Bev-Bel GP30 shells on the BB GP35 chassis tacky as the shell was...
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Apr 4, 2020 13:36:21 GMT -8
Even if you were to revert to the blue box era, the cost to produce the models in the United States would be prohibitive. The minimum wage is increasing in many areas of the U.S. making even cheap labor non-existent. China is here to stay in many aspects of our everyday life including model trains.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Apr 4, 2020 18:10:43 GMT -8
thunderhawk, China is not a monolith; I can separate the people from their government because they aren't the same. There, short enough for ya'?
And last I checked, the Athearn BB SD40-2 required one to open a packet, dump out 6 handrails and 36 stanchions (making sure they are rust free), assemble them, put them on the model, glue or crimp each stanchion to the rail, then paint them to match the model. One also had to apply the eight air cylinders, four shock struts, four headlight lenses, and the couplers. That's over 50 parts that need to be applied. How is that not a kit? I never said it wasn't an easy kit to build, but it's still a kit. It even said it on the box.
loco8107, Ha. All too true. But that was because Athearn, et al, would rarely introduce new products and would never change road numbers on ones they had.
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Post by brakie on Apr 4, 2020 19:55:14 GMT -8
Jim, As you know BB locomotives and freight cars are still with us as Roundhouse RTR.. Some BB engines is still cool like the supped up SW1000 , SW1500, GP38-2,GP40-2 and of course the SD40-2. Heck, I still get a kick out of switching cars with my old BB GP7 or GP35.. I'm beginning to think I enjoy operating those engines because they remind me of pleasant hobby memories and the various clubs I been a member of over the years. The BB models were and are still a great start to building one yourself and for less money. Athearn back then really stepped up the game with the GP38-2/40-2 and SW1500/1000 releases. And I do miss the old Bev-Bel GP30 shells on the BB GP35 chassis tacky as the shell was... I been thinking about this off and on for the last two hours.. If I had to sell all my locomotive except for one(heaven forbid!) I would keep my Summerset Ry SW1500. I bought this engine off eBay because I like the road name and the ACL inspired paint scheme... I have since added a RTR SW1500 cab interior. Funny how a simple BB SW1500 was my first choice.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 4, 2020 20:10:33 GMT -8
They're good people working their asses off to make their lives better. Sound familiar? My answer is "no". Ed
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Post by bnsf971 on Apr 6, 2020 5:29:06 GMT -8
I may not be the sharpest guy, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn.
What I see happening is, the people currently screaming to bring production back the the USA will take one look at a new product announcement for a "Made 100% in USA" locomotive model with an MSRP of $500+ for a non-sound unit, and then start screaming "I'm not buying that! That's too much! I'm voting with my wallet!" At that point, the "Made in USA" model will of course not be produced due to lack of pre-orders. And the situation will remain as it is.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 6, 2020 5:43:40 GMT -8
What I see happening is, the people currently screaming to bring production back the the USA will take one look at a new product announcement for a "Made 100% in USA" locomotive model with an MSRP of $500+ for a non-sound unit, and then start screaming "I'm not buying that! That's too much! I'm voting with my wallet!" At that point, the "Made in USA" model will of course not be produced due to lack of pre-orders. And the situation will remain as it is. But wait, that is supposed to be a "tired" argument.
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Post by brakie on Apr 6, 2020 11:08:55 GMT -8
What I see happening is, the people currently screaming to bring production back the the USA will take one look at a new product announcement for a "Made 100% in USA" locomotive model with an MSRP of $500+ for a non-sound unit, and then start screaming "I'm not buying that! That's too much! I'm voting with my wallet!" At that point, the "Made in USA" model will of course not be produced due to lack of pre-orders. And the situation will remain as it is. But wait, that is supposed to be a "tired" argument. Jim, If its not a tired argument its sure enough a well worn out argument. I suspect a BB engine kit would be around $90.00 today if they was still being produce. As I mention before 90% of my locomotives and freight cars are bought use.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 6, 2020 11:51:49 GMT -8
But wait, that is supposed to be a "tired" argument. Jim, If its not a tired argument its sure enough a well worn out argument. I only mention it Larry because a Jason of Rapido has cited that bringing manufacture of trains back to north America would raise the cost of model trains a great deal. I assume he knows what he is talking about? *shrug*
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Post by severn on Apr 6, 2020 17:07:22 GMT -8
In general no. But perhaps certain parts of key us industries could be propped up here. But model trains would not be in that list. (and just imagine the fun trying to define key us industries & the politics of subsidizing them). Now I think we might have a bit better luck expanding suppliers outside the Chinese semi monopoly on cheap stuff. It's not just the labor costs but the one stop shop that's so attractive to get things built there... A lot of co-resident suppliers. Watch that scale trains vid posted recently in the ho forum for a sense of it...
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Post by brakie on Apr 6, 2020 19:11:59 GMT -8
Jim, If its not a tired argument its sure enough a well worn out argument. I only mention it Larry because a Jason of Rapido has cited that bringing manufacture of trains back to north America would raise the cost of model trains a great deal. I assume he knows what he is talking about? *shrug* Jim, I fully agree and recall the topic. To tell the truth I would hate to see the price of a highly detailed freight car made in USA after seeing $50-70.00 freight cars made in China. I'm just plum tickle pink I don't need the newest models on the market.. I'm very happy with my cars from Atlas, ExactRail, Intermountain, Walthers (Proto/Gold Line), older Red Caboose, Athearn/Genesis, Fox Valley and some of the better Athearn RTR cars. I still use the Athearn (former Roundhouse) bulkhead flatcars and a select few RTR FMC 50' boxcars and covered hoppers.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Apr 7, 2020 5:09:54 GMT -8
I'd rather not due business with China on any level at this time. Enjoying the model railroad hobby I may be forced to do that to a point but intend to severely limit my purchases of chinese mfg things. I have too darn much stuff anyway.
I like the Summerset SW1500, Brakie. A sucker for the ACL here.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 7, 2020 6:09:55 GMT -8
I only mention it Larry because a Jason of Rapido has cited that bringing manufacture of trains back to north America would raise the cost of model trains a great deal. I assume he knows what he is talking about? *shrug* Jim, I fully agree and recall the topic. To tell the truth I would hate to see the price of a highly detailed freight car made in USA after seeing $50-70.00 freight cars made in China. I still use the Athearn (former Roundhouse) bulkhead flatcars and a select few RTR FMC 50' boxcars and covered hoppers. For sure. Me too. I still have some older tooled models including a number of the Ahearn/MDC bulkhead. They have filled a niche for many years but that said, I'm very pleased we finally have some newer bulkheads which add some much needed variety in the realm of bulkheads including the nice SP/SSW Wheels of Time (being an SP fan) and the ScaleTrains F68AH. I would still very much like to see a prototype matching Thrall bulkhead to replace the generic stand-in Athearn/MDC.
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Post by stottman on Apr 8, 2020 6:01:02 GMT -8
Jim, If its not a tired argument its sure enough a well worn out argument. I only mention it Larry because a Jason of Rapido has cited that bringing manufacture of trains back to north America would raise the cost of model trains a great deal. I assume he knows what he is talking about? *shrug* Did he type that from his private train car, bus, or the recreated train car in the basement of what must be a custom home in a major metro area (in other words, not cheap)? I am not saying the guy shouldn't be compensated for what he does, risk he took, money he put up, etc... But I take his "starving artist" / no money in it spiel with a grain of salt. I am sure the truth is somewhere in the middle. The main problem is that almost all of the manufacturers are not really manufacturers in the classic sense. They have very little infrastructure in the US, outside of a warehouse to accept shipping containers from China. Of course its going to be cost prohibitive if you have to start from scratch. Kadee manages to make nice, detailed freight cars in Oregon, USA. But they never "left", do everything in house, etc
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