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Post by carrman on Jun 17, 2020 10:42:55 GMT -8
FWIW, it was me who asked about the SD50/60. Been hearing that rumor for years now, which I think started back when Shane from ST was still at Athearn. Shane told me this in person back in 2013 when he gave me the tour of Horizon HQ in Illinois. SD45T-2 supposed to be redone also. The tooling on those 3 models was Clune tooling, which is every bit as good as Genesis. And, he wasn't the only Athearn employee to verify this for me. Dave
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Post by brammy on Jun 17, 2020 11:02:26 GMT -8
Oh shush you I know about the Scaletrains ones, though.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 17, 2020 11:03:01 GMT -8
Cool. It's just taking 11 or 12 years to finally get to what Shane said was coming. But with the turn-over, sometimes plans change, but it's good to know the SD50/60 plans are still, well, planned.
As for tooling, it will be interesting to see if ScaleTrains does an SD45T-2 before Athearn upgrades the RTR SD45T-2 to Genesis level. The RTR version, from what I can tell, is part way there and has a fair amount of detail already.
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Post by 12bridge on Jun 17, 2020 11:42:58 GMT -8
There was talk of moving the SW's into Genesis also, the only real thing they lack is tread plate. Been quite some time since they have been run as well.
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Post by simulatortrain on Jun 17, 2020 11:56:54 GMT -8
It would be really cool to see the SD38-40 go Genesis too.
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Post by dstark on Jun 17, 2020 12:32:22 GMT -8
There was talk of moving the SW's into Genesis also, the only real thing they lack is tread plate. Been quite some time since they have been run as well. The past and present Athearn SW1000 though is a kludge though - they deleted one stack and shortened the radiator grill from the SW1500, but didn't touch the SW1500 hood door layout which differs from the SW1000. Hopefully a Genesis release would address that, by which point they might as well go to new tooling with separate hood and walkway parts and add front radiator intake grill/fan/shutter detail. Doug Stark
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Post by carrman on Jun 17, 2020 15:16:41 GMT -8
Remember, only separate walkway models will become Genesis.
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Post by mdvle on Jun 17, 2020 17:11:56 GMT -8
It would be really cool to see the SD38-40 go Genesis too.
I didn't initially report it because I didn't fully catch the response, but now that the video is up the following will be of interest.
Someone representing a store asked, to paraphrase, that customers would like more Roundhouse and RTR and less Genesis - more stuff to compete with Walthers Mainline. (1:04:22)
The response was essentially that while they are price aware, the bulk of their sales are Genesis and that highly detailed is where the market is going/is what most customers want - though they did make clear that Roundhouse and RTR would continue to be offered.
Based on that comment, which has been echoed by other manufacturers, given time it is reasonable to assume that these models (SD38/40/50/60) will either get upgraded by Athearn if possible, or Athearn / someone else will offer a high end version of them - particularly given that being older subject they are unlikely to have the IP issues blocking a better model the way the Siemens Genesis does.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 17, 2020 19:36:41 GMT -8
Someone representing a store asked, to paraphrase, that customers would like more Roundhouse and RTR and less Genesis - more stuff to compete with Walthers Mainline. (1:04:22)
The response was essentially that while they are price aware, the bulk of their sales are Genesis and that highly detailed is where the market is going/is what most customers want ...
Kinda sounds like there's two different markets: the serious modelers (Athearn) and the dabblers (Walthers). So Athearn is working with the former, and is happy doing it. Walthers is working with the latter. I note that Walthers has essentially dropped their Proto passenger line. I guess they thought they just weren't making the bucks on it. Remember when it was a "thing"? The dabbler market just didn't want them. Ed
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Post by Christian on Jun 18, 2020 1:02:40 GMT -8
Kinda sounds like there's two different markets: the serious modelers (Athearn) and the dabblers (Walthers). Son of a gun! I guess I'm a dabbler. Here I thought I was being careful with my hobby dollars by doing my own detailing. I thought I was a serious railroad modeler. Well, I know how to get on the cart; UNITE! SEIZE that WALTHERS LOCOMOTIVE and DABBLE, DABBLE, DABBLE! Or something like that.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jun 18, 2020 1:29:10 GMT -8
Some people are happy with Athearn GP35s from 1970, too. It's supposed to be fun, there's no rules.
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Post by stevewagner on Jun 18, 2020 1:32:47 GMT -8
Amen, lvrr325! Model Railroader's best slogan ever has been "Model Railroading is fun!"
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Post by brammy on Jun 18, 2020 4:51:37 GMT -8
I have an old blue box GP7 that I weathered back in the 90s. It's a grinder, but I love it. I had a friend put a decoder in it.
I saw one of the RTR tunnel motors earlier this year and was impressed with them. I also have a Bachmann SD40 that runs good after I replaced the decoder.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 18, 2020 6:32:12 GMT -8
I didn't say dabblers shouldn't have fun. Fun is, well, FUN!
In truth, rivet (rivit) counting is a LOT of work. Though rivet counters apparently think that, too, is FUN.
I do confess that I dabble from time to time. I've got an Athearn Southern cow and calf that I just love. The calf is sort of a simulation of a calf, with liberties taken by Irv himself. Of course, it needs remotoring, DCC, sound..........
Ed
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Post by jeoffreythecat on Jun 18, 2020 8:08:45 GMT -8
I didn't say dabblers shouldn't have fun. Fun is, well, FUN! In truth, rivet (rivit) counting is a LOT of work. Though rivet counters apparently think that, too, is FUN. I do confess that I dabble from time to time. I've got an Athearn Southern cow and calf that I just love. The calf is sort of a simulation of a calf, with liberties taken by Irv himself. Of course, it needs remotoring, DCC, sound.......... Ed Maybe some of us have other things to spend money on: say a wife, three kids and a mortgage. For the cost of one Genesis ACF 5250 covered hopper, I managed to pick up 10 @ $2 (Timonium show), Microscale decals and have the grey paint. A fleet of plain grey ACFX cars in plastic pellet service (dabbling). Money saved used for more important purchases: special run of Kadee RF&P boxcars from historical society (serious). Use CVT ties and Code 55 and 70 rail (rail cheap at Timonium). Haven't spent more than $10 for turnouts: Shinohara or BK Products (both Timonium) and put the work in on them. Dabbler or serious? And at the end of every month, $0 balance on the credit cards. (My yearly posting since I now have 14 posts since December 2013.)
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 18, 2020 8:16:34 GMT -8
If the 10 5250's are good enough, you're a dabbler.
If the 10 5250's are placeholders until you someday replace them with decent models, you're an (underfunded) rivet counter.
My choice of the word "dabbler" was meant to be offensive, much as the phrase "rivet counter" was meant to be for years. Over time, I have considered other words: "tinplater" and "goodenougher" are a couple. Interestingly, ScaleTrains has clearly meant to use the term "rivet counter" in a non-offensive manner. Their "operator" term is well chosen, though rivet counters have been known to "operate" their trains, too.
Whether your mortgage is paid, or your credit card balance is zero has nothing to do with which group you're in. Whether you're living on social security or have a free-standing building for your layout and another one for your shop has nothing to do with it.
The "goodenougher" term might be the best. For a "rivet counter", almost nothing is good enough.
Remember the X2f? Goodenougher. Remember deep flanges? Goodenougher. Truck mounted couplers? Cast-on roofwalks?..............
Ed
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Post by lars on Jun 18, 2020 8:46:58 GMT -8
I didn't initially report it because I didn't fully catch the response, but now that the video is up the following will be of interest.
Someone representing a store asked, to paraphrase, that customers would like more Roundhouse and RTR and less Genesis - more stuff to compete with Walthers Mainline. (1:04:22)
The response was essentially that while they are price aware, the bulk of their sales are Genesis and that highly detailed is where the market is going/is what most customers want - though they did make clear that Roundhouse and RTR would continue to be offered.
Based on that comment, which has been echoed by other manufacturers, given time it is reasonable to assume that these models (SD38/40/50/60) will either get upgraded by Athearn if possible, or Athearn / someone else will offer a high end version of them - particularly given that being older subject they are unlikely to have the IP issues blocking a better model the way the Siemens Genesis does.
If I had a chance to watch I was going to ask about the RTR line. Other than the F59 there hasn't been a release since 2018. I'm wondering if they priced themselves out of RTR. The last SD40-2's in 2018 were $150 which is the price of the Rounhouse units now, and they don't have the level of detail on the Roundhouses. With Genesis 1.0 around $210-220, there isn't a lot of room to differentiate a product. Athearn might just want to push the good RTRs to Genesis, add a little more detail and get Genesis pricing rather than trying to slot something in between.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 18, 2020 9:01:16 GMT -8
Maybe some of us have other things to spend money on: say a wife, three kids and a mortgage. For the cost of one Genesis ACF 5250 covered hopper, I managed to pick up 10 @ $2 (Timonium show), Microscale decals and have the grey paint. Guessing you meant the Genesis 4600 covered hoppers; I passed them by due to the poor fit issues with the top on the body. Atlas has announced the 5250 covered hoppers and I'm wondering when those will see the light of day. As for dabbling, with a wife and 3 kids, it's nice you have time to dabble. My daughter is grown up and out of the house, but I have a type-A wife and a fixer-upper home and limited funds so for us it's years of DIY work on weekends. Same here, pay off CC zero monthly. Congrats on only 14 posts in 6 1/2 years.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 18, 2020 9:16:10 GMT -8
I'm wondering if they priced themselves out of RTR. The last SD40-2's in 2018 were $150 which is the price of the Rounhouse units now, and they don't have the level of detail on the Roundhouses. With Genesis 1.0 around $210-220, there isn't a lot of room to differentiate a product. Athearn might just want to push the good RTRs to Genesis, add a little more detail and get Genesis pricing rather than trying to slot something in between. The RTR line has had some engines in it like the SD40, SD40T-2, SD45T-2 etc. that are half way to Genesis. The RTR line is odd as it also has some engines like the GP40-2 of blue box heritage which have minimal detail. Athearn has moved some RTR models into Roundhouse line to differentiate them more appropriately. But anymore, $150 is awfully close to what the ScaleTrains rivet counter SD40-2's go for.
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Post by jeoffreythecat on Jun 18, 2020 10:26:48 GMT -8
Dabbler: decided it would be fun to have a hobby. Spends thousands on DCC, locomotives with sound, and prebuilt buildings, and runs trains through prototype-size Horseshoe Curve. Tired of efforts being criticized by others for not meeting their standards, give up model railroading, sell everything on eBay, and take up something cheaper like golf or restoring Studebakers. Serious: Doesn't let negativity drive one out of hobby for past forty years, scratch-builds and kitbashes, happy to spend family time with kids building/painting/decaling $2 Athearn and MDC kits so they can work their way up to more difficult projects. Realize that needs are more important than wants and income goes to the former instead of eventually going to alimony payments.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 18, 2020 10:49:54 GMT -8
Or just don't give a rats ass.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 18, 2020 16:12:31 GMT -8
Dabbler: decided it would be fun to have a hobby. Spends thousands on DCC, locomotives with sound, and prebuilt buildings, and runs trains through prototype-size Horseshoe Curve. Tired of efforts being criticized by others for not meeting their standards, give up model railroading, sell everything on eBay, and take up something cheaper like golf or restoring Studebakers. Serious: Doesn't let negativity drive one out of hobby for past forty years, scratch-builds and kitbashes, happy to spend family time with kids building/painting/decaling $2 Athearn and MDC kits so they can work their way up to more difficult projects. Realize that needs are more important than wants and income goes to the former instead of eventually going to alimony payments. I'm trying to get a handle on why Athearn says they're doing really well on Genesis, and seem to be fully committed to the concept, while Walthers is fully committed to "anti-Genesis" (Mainline). Two opposing concepts. Ed
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Post by amtrakfl9 on Jun 18, 2020 18:17:13 GMT -8
There is a difference between how Athearn and Walthers do the budget stuff, though. Walthers seems to have made some odd decisions. For example, their choices for 932 series Budd streamlined cars were well-researched enough to be accurate for a whole bunch of different road names at a very reasonable cost. For the Mainline series, though, they seem to have chosen a bunch of random, less common cars to slap all sorts of paint schemes onto, and they have actually converted them from body-mounted to truck-mounted couplers. The body mount kit is sold separately, and there is now a huge notch at the bottom of the ends like on Kato's stuff. On top of all this, they are actually MORE expensive than the old 932 cars. They also no longer have separate Amtrak HEP versions. Personally, I think they just don't want to spend the time and effort doing higher end Proto models or even doing a better job with the lower end models when they know they can get away with this stuff.
Athearn does a much better job in my opinion. Ever since they moved all the really low-end stuff into the Roundhouse line, the RTR stuff has been exceptionally good value for money. You can get a road-number specific, highly detailed, well running locomotive for around $100. I can't think of any other manufacturer that offers something like that. ScaleTrains Operator stuff, for example, is far lower-end than Athearn RTR at a similar price. The guys at Athearn seem to care much more about doing a good job and they really have their eyes on the ball as far as how to make the most out of a lower-end model.
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Post by lars on Jun 18, 2020 20:54:49 GMT -8
Athearn does a much better job in my opinion. Ever since they moved all the really low-end stuff into the Roundhouse line, the RTR stuff has been exceptionally good value for money. You can get a road-number specific, highly detailed, well running locomotive for around $100. I can't think of any other manufacturer that offers something like that. ScaleTrains Operator stuff, for example, is far lower-end than Athearn RTR at a similar price. The guys at Athearn seem to care much more about doing a good job and they really have their eyes on the ball as far as how to make the most out of a lower-end model. They used to do a nice job on the RTR line. But on the locomotive side we haven’t seen much over the past couple years. If something new comes out in RTR the list price could be in the $180 ballpark. And as Jim noted you’re in ScaleTrains Rivet Counter territory at that point.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jun 19, 2020 11:36:35 GMT -8
I didn't say dabblers shouldn't have fun. Fun is, well, FUN! In truth, rivet (rivit) counting is a LOT of work. Though rivet counters apparently think that, too, is FUN. I do confess that I dabble from time to time. I've got an Athearn Southern cow and calf that I just love. The calf is sort of a simulation of a calf, with liberties taken by Irv himself. Of course, it needs remotoring, DCC, sound.......... Ed You mean you dabble from time to time when you're not spending all your time posting on Internet forums?
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Jun 19, 2020 12:21:00 GMT -8
Dabbler: decided it would be fun to have a hobby. Spends thousands on DCC, locomotives with sound, and prebuilt buildings, and runs trains through prototype-size Horseshoe Curve. Tired of efforts being criticized by others for not meeting their standards, give up model railroading, sell everything on eBay, and take up something cheaper like golf or restoring Studebakers. Serious: Doesn't let negativity drive one out of hobby for past forty years, scratch-builds and kitbashes, happy to spend family time with kids building/painting/decaling $2 Athearn and MDC kits so they can work their way up to more difficult projects. Realize that needs are more important than wants and income goes to the former instead of eventually going to alimony payments. Then there is the serious dabbler who buys Genesis locomotives with sound, RTR Bethgons, grain hoppers and Automaxes realizing they don't have the time or patience to build, paint and detail models to that degree. But builds a layout, wires it, lays track, scenics and builds, paints and details structure kits with the knowledge that life can change temporarily or permanently...and still enjoys model railroading as merely a hobby not a sick obsession.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 19, 2020 16:19:49 GMT -8
I didn't say dabblers shouldn't have fun. Fun is, well, FUN! In truth, rivet (rivit) counting is a LOT of work. Though rivet counters apparently think that, too, is FUN. I do confess that I dabble from time to time. I've got an Athearn Southern cow and calf that I just love. The calf is sort of a simulation of a calf, with liberties taken by Irv himself. Of course, it needs remotoring, DCC, sound.......... Ed You mean you dabble from time to time when you're not spending all your time posting on Internet forums? If I am "spending all [my] time posting on Internet forums", I would therefore never have time to dabble. Since I have,in your quote, confessed to dabbling, I therefore do NOT spend all my time posting blah blah blah...... Has logic always been a challenge for you? (I suppose I should have taken the high road in responding to a personal attack. Maybe next time.) Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 19, 2020 16:30:58 GMT -8
Then there is the serious dabbler...still enjoys model railroading as merely a hobby not a sick obsession. I know I'm just wild guessing here, but perhaps could the person/people who DO enjoy model railroading as a sick obsession be described with a word that starts with "r"? And, for some reason, is usually misspelled by the people who use it? Ed
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Post by fr8kar on Jun 19, 2020 18:31:58 GMT -8
Good grief. Are we really doing the serious vs. fun modeler argument again? If so, start a new topic in the crew lounge.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 19, 2020 20:20:12 GMT -8
Ryan,
I think we already know that you can be BOTH serious and have fun* when you play with your trains. Have there really been arguments about that? I must have missed them.
Ed
*for that matter, you can be serious and not have fun. you can have fun and not be serious (see Gomez crashing his Lionel). And you can be not serious and not have fun. THAT one is truly weird--why bother?
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