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Post by lars on Jul 18, 2020 8:29:08 GMT -8
The best chance would possibly be S as a compromise given that 3-rail S is essentially dead, thus creating an opportunity to create a scale model market without the problems.
High rail S? Didn’t MTH snap up some of the big S suppliers and has done nothing with them? |
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 18, 2020 9:37:08 GMT -8
I so wish O was more popular.
The best chance would possibly be S as a compromise
I've made the caboose in S and I agree with a comment I'd heard in the past; S is the best compromise between detail and size. Unfortunately the market is even smaller than scale O. As far as O goes one big issue, besides just the sheer size, is the cost. I'll have over $500 just in parts for the GP20 pictured above. Before adding a decoder and sound. Then you also have O gauge versus Proto 48 which are not interchangeable, further splintering the market. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 18, 2020 13:33:08 GMT -8
Some even remote compatibility between the Proto and equivalent traditional scales is extremely beneficial. The Proto models and even trackwork can serve as foreground models in a larger layout. Even an operational Proto siding at the front, while traditional models pass by a foot or more behind can convey a very convincing impression. The physical and financial logistics of Proto larger scales put them out of reach of most of the hobby. Visual effects can be an useful compromise. Some of the forgotten scales might be resurrected thanks to the scalability of 3D models. For example, forced perspective is something most of us are familiar with. The gaps between the current common scales (O, HO & Z) make it difficult to use one scale in the background of a layout of a larger scale. A TT model, for example, might work at the back of an HO layout. As a background model, detail constraints are relaxed (the "3 foot rule" and beyond). An N scale model would quickly be spotted as "too small" in most normal size layout sizes. But a TT model perhaps clinging to a background mountain... Perhaps a Milwaukee Boxcab set running on background trestles between hilltops and tunnels. A few feet of intervening scenery or structures and then similar models in higher detail up front. Only the most popular models (aka Geeps, SD40, GG1's, Super Chiefs, NKP Berks and so forth) might merit regular TT production but the all-important running gear makes all the 3D printed shells atop easy. At say 6' or more, would anyone notice a colorful Little Joe was riding on a GG1 chassis instead of the proper one? Probably not. So a basic set of trucks, motors and wheelbase adjustable chassis opens up a whole new world of possibilities. The same of course might apply for S scale working in the background of an O scale layout, or HO in the back of an S. Someone probably has a chart of the relative percentage differences between scales that would make the believable pairings clearer. There's probably some magic ratio beyknd which forced perspective doesn't work. Even in the same scale there are some notably undersized models that "work". For some reason I seem to recall the Walthers Ashmore Hotel was slightly undersized. Thus putting it at the back of an HO city lends perspective: www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38171A list of known undersize models might be useful. Oversize, as in the HO PRR Alto tower kit, is a much harder sell. Maybe as a background model behind several S scale foreground tracks. So even common elements that the mind assigns "should be size" can be useful. The simulation guys may have worked out what makee a convincing image size-wise. That could conceivably be translated back into real models for background duty. So a TT Little Joe, Bipolar or4 boxcab set of Milwaukee electrics pulling a train of 40' wood boxcars on a distant trestle might actually fly, especially if you are modelling say Avery Idaho in the high-detail foreground. All sorts of interesting possibilities. |
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Post by mdvle on Jul 18, 2020 15:06:46 GMT -8
I'm not sure you ever had 3-rail S; the tinplate American Flyer used 2-rail track. Some Flyer trains date to pre-WWII and in that era were made to 3/16ths scale but used O-gauge track.
Thanks for the clarification, I guess I just assumed American Flyer must have been 3-rail.
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Post by mdvle on Jul 18, 2020 15:14:05 GMT -8
The best chance would possibly be S as a compromise
I've made the caboose in S and I agree with a comment I'd heard in the past; S is the best compromise between detail and size. Unfortunately the market is even smaller than scale O. As far as O goes one big issue, besides just the sheer size, is the cost. I'll have over $500 just in parts for the GP20 pictured above. Before adding a decoder and sound. Then you also have O gauge versus Proto 48 which are not interchangeable, further splintering the market.
Anyone attempting to create a larger scale equivalent to HO - where models are at least reasonably accurate and aren't expected to negotiate crazy tight curves - is essentially going to be creating the market from nothing so existing market size isn't going to matter.
As for cost, yes larger scales can appear more expensive - but you also don't tend to need as much stuff (I concede want is a different matter).
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Jul 18, 2020 16:34:27 GMT -8
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 18, 2020 16:47:39 GMT -8
The PSC is a knockout!
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 18, 2020 16:48:47 GMT -8
One of the last things that Precision Scale imported was the big Milwaukee boxcabs, or whatever they were. Wow, I wanted some--they were that cool looking.
Didn't, because of cost, being the "wrong" railroad, and my lack of catenary. But that did not affect my emotional reaction of: WANT.
Ed
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 18, 2020 16:56:10 GMT -8
One of the last things that Precision Scale imported was the big Milwaukee boxcabs, or whatever they were. Wow, I wanted some--they were that cool looking. Didn't, because of cost, being the "wrong" railroad, and my lack of catenary. But that did not affect my emotional reaction of: WANT. Ed Wrong RR? You could have bought a set and repainted them   |
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Post by packer on Jul 20, 2020 12:42:09 GMT -8
The 52’ bulkhead with centerbeam might be interesting. I might snag one or two and paint it for Bennett lumber.
I wonder if the streamline caboose is that CB&Q NE-12 they made. I’ve tried to clean one up but removing the cast on roofwalk on a curve is getting the better of me.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 20, 2020 14:54:53 GMT -8
Speaking of bulkheads, I checked Wheels of Time for estimated delivery on the SP straight taper bulkheads. The earlier GBEC bulkheads are really nice. The next run was due late summer but is now expected to be finished end of September and in stores by November. I've been waiting ages for those as well as the Trainworx trailers due for the past couple years.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 20, 2020 15:04:18 GMT -8
I wonder if the streamline caboose is that CB&Q NE-12 they made. I’ve tried to clean one up but removing the cast on roofwalk on a curve is getting the better of me. Looks like it is:  And the roofwalk is now separate. Ed |
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 20, 2020 17:58:53 GMT -8
Which Little Joes to get?
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 20, 2020 21:11:19 GMT -8
Which Little Joes to get? MTH $400 while Overland and PSC seem to be around $1500-1700 if you can find them. The PSC's had very small runs. How much is the correct detailing worth to you? |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 21, 2020 0:09:04 GMT -8
How much added or corrected detail does it take to take an MTH to say 90% of a PSC model? Is it just adding parts or are there fundamental dimensional issues that need addressed? If it's just parts, some enterprising 3D printing expert might be able to put together an upgrade package for the MTH. Maybe even include a fret of etched brass parts if appropriate. Same for the bi-polar. I'd drop $50 to $80 (?) for a top flight detail kit that would get my MTH Bipolar close to one of the brass masterpieces. Ship modelers have this stuff all the time for big plastic ship models (battleships etc are extremely popular for upgrade kits) Some I think cost more than the models, but they're exfremely complex. Model RR market would probably want something a little more modest: freetimehobbies.com/1-200-pontos-uss-missouri-bb63-super-deluxe-upgrade-set-with-teak-deck/ |
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 21, 2020 0:24:22 GMT -8
If it's just parts, some enterprising 3D printing expert might be able to put together an upgrade package for the MTH. Maybe even include a fret of etched brass parts if appropriate. Like I did for the Walthers ribside caboose?  Have conversion kits to make a decent representation of the 1949 and 51 cars (the roof is slightly different as well. No fixing that short of a new shell or the modeler making that mod themselves. The kit includes end rails, bays, variety of smokejacks, trucks, wheels, decals.) along with an etched parts upgrade as well in a separate kit. As far as I know the dimensions are decent on the MTH. The detailing is a bit light and just wrong in some areas depending on era. I'll likely be getting one and will put it next to my Overland to see what it needs. Going from memory the MTH doesn't have the concrete ballast weights under the pans, rooftop cooling coils, no plows, all weather window, etc. |
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 21, 2020 0:44:01 GMT -8
One of the last things that Precision Scale imported was the big Milwaukee boxcabs, or whatever they were. Wow, I wanted some--they were that cool looking. Didn't, because of cost, being the "wrong" railroad, and my lack of catenary. But that did not affect my emotional reaction of: WANT. Ed Big boxcab and PSC I'm guessing this is the one you are talking about; Westinghouse EP-3. Really cool motors.  |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 21, 2020 6:08:10 GMT -8
Maybe this will work:  Ah, it did. Those are the ones. I am THRILLED that Precision Scale's still in business as a parts manufacturer, but I wish they'd have an archive for their old catalog sheets (Overland, too, for that matter). Ed |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 21, 2020 6:46:16 GMT -8
Maybe this will work: Ah, it did. Those are the ones. I am THRILLED that Precision Scale's still in business as a parts manufacturer, but I wish they'd have an archive for their old catalog sheets (Overland, too, for that matter). Ed Paint them thar boxcabs up in a Warbonnet and they could pull the new Walthers Olympian Chief. (I would absolutely buy a set of those if they weren't multi-kilobuck brass. As much as they get bagged on, a Broadway Limited might do it, after they get through with some more Pennsy electrics. Until then...   The Milwaukee is more believable, IMO. Might have actually happened too. Pennsy's P5a's were kicked to lower duty because they were harder on track at high speed than GG-1's. Just as the GN motors went to the Pennsy (FF-1), one might imagine downgraded PRR motors going to cash-strapped Milw. They usually wind up in the $275-ish realm, so a pair would scatch that boxcab itch, sort of. |
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 21, 2020 13:24:38 GMT -8
Which Little Joes to get? MTH $400 while Overland and PSC seem to be around $1500-1700 if you can find them. The PSC's had very small runs. How much is the correct detailing worth to you? For my carpet layout MTH is close enough. I have two Little Joes from OMI from their 97 run, E78 and E79. |
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 21, 2020 14:18:20 GMT -8
Maybe this will work: Ah, it did. Those are the ones. I am THRILLED that Precision Scale's still in business as a parts manufacturer, but I wish they'd have an archive for their old catalog sheets (Overland, too, for that matter). Ed That set has two bobtails. That's how my ancient Suydam four unit set is. With the bob tails powered which someone told me was unusual. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 21, 2020 15:27:33 GMT -8
Maybe this will work: Ah, it did. Those are the ones. I am THRILLED that Precision Scale's still in business as a parts manufacturer, but I wish they'd have an archive for their old catalog sheets (Overland, too, for that matter). Ed That set has two bobtails. That's how my ancient Suydam four unit set is. With the bob tails powered which someone told me was unusual. How many young lads of yore were inspired by boxcab electrics?  www.tavbooks.com/pictures/9968.4.jpg?v=1563405989 |
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Post by lvrr325 on Jul 21, 2020 17:41:12 GMT -8
Sometimes I wonder if those goofy fantasy schemes are worth putting one away and see what happens to the price. One of the more expensive of the Penn Line GG1s is the New Haven version. And most of the Tyco GG1/2's command a pretty decent price for what was a cheap mass produced toy.
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 22, 2020 9:15:31 GMT -8
I hope more Box Cab locomotives are on someone's radar for consideration. Since MTH produced an O scale NYC P2 Electric, I thought they might have taken a shot at doing one in HO.
But with BLI doing the P5a, there's a glimmer of hope that some of the Box Cabs that were only produced in brass, might finally get a good look for manufacture in plastic.
I would love to see NYC P, R, S, & T motors, NH EP-1, 2 & 3, CN GE Box Cab, C&NW GE Box Cab switchers, MILW E25 Box Cab, etc...
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 22, 2020 14:40:03 GMT -8
MTH did the MILW boxcabs in O. Not going to happen, by them, in HO obviously.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jul 22, 2020 23:05:12 GMT -8
FWIW, I see Pennsylvania dropped a stinker on Greenberg and their Monroeville show set for this weekend was cancelled. Like I said, expect more to come.
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Post by mdvle on Jul 23, 2020 6:09:47 GMT -8
But with BLI doing the P5a, there's a glimmer of hope that some of the Box Cabs that were only produced in brass, might finally get a good look for manufacture in plastic. I would love to see NYC P, R, S, & T motors, NH EP-1, 2 & 3, CN GE Box Cab, C&NW GE Box Cab switchers, MILW E25 Box Cab, etc...
The CN Box Cabs - 6 units that ran on 1 line? Unlikely(*)
An Alco Box Cab or a GE 44-tonner? As diesels I think there may be a market, particularly with foobie paint schemes, given their small size making them very suitable for shelf layouts which a lot of people are restricted to based on space.
NH EP-? - maybe, the NH modelers have demonstrated their willingness to buy, might depend on the success? of the EP-5 (to see if they are willing to pay the premium required for a limited run RTR loco to cover it's costs). Though I think I have read the NH modelers don't see them as likely (certainly the EP-1, retired in 1947, is likely to be problematic in finding an audience).
* - depends on how difficult to come up with a mechanism which could be paired with a 3D printed shell, making a production run of maybe 50 practical.
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Post by jonklein611 on Jul 23, 2020 11:29:06 GMT -8
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Post by packer on Jul 23, 2020 12:12:53 GMT -8
I wonder if the streamline caboose is that CB&Q NE-12 they made. I’ve tried to clean one up but removing the cast on roofwalk on a curve is getting the better of me. Looks like it is: And the roofwalk is now separate. Ed The grabs are still molded on. Guess I may pick up one to paint in BN |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 23, 2020 15:34:49 GMT -8
Yeah, it'd be nice if they took that one seriously. Years ago, I picked up several for "fixin' up". Then Railway Classics announced them in brass. I folded like a cheap umbrella and bought one in BN. I haven't regretted it yet.
Ed
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Have conversion kits to make a decent representation of the 1949 and 51 cars (the roof is slightly different as well. No fixing that short of a new shell or the modeler making that mod themselves. The kit includes end rails, bays, variety of smokejacks, trucks, wheels, decals.) along with an etched parts upgrade as well in a separate kit.
