sd50f
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Posts: 101
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Post by sd50f on Jul 26, 2020 9:12:17 GMT -8
Hello everyone. I'm sharing this because I've never had it happen before and I've never heard of it happening before. I was stripping a couple of locomotive shells for painting using Dot 3 brake fluid. Never had any issues with Athearn or old Life Like shells, but with this Walthers F40PH shell, I had an interesting problem come up. Now, there are two shades of white in this photo, but neither of them are paint. This is all plastic from the same shell. For some reason, the plastic at the bottom started to crack and peel off of the shell. Fortunately, the damage is in areas where some putty and sanding will do the trick and I can salvage the shell. I've had bad results with Walthers rolling stock and Pine Sol in the past, and this shell didn't seem to have any issues at all with the brake fluid on my initial tests. Weird, just weird. It also made some of the door latches look like butter that had been left out in the sun. Again, those parts were going to be replaced at some point so it's not a huge loss. I'm guessing Walthers uses something other than styrene for their shells, something that doesn't play well with Pine Sol or brake fluid. Maybe it's time for me to get an air eraser. Timothy Dineen
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 26, 2020 9:42:40 GMT -8
I've used 91% isopropyl with no problems on P2K models. Paint falls right off and the shells appear to be the same color as your F40 anyway.
No guarantee they use the same paint.
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Post by nsc39d8 on Jul 26, 2020 10:47:49 GMT -8
I highly recommend 91% isopropyl alcohol. This is the only thing I use any more to strip paint. I have been successful on Athearn, Atlas, Proto, Life Like, Walthers, Kato(old & new) and Intermountain. I say Kato old and new as at some point Kato has changed paint. We all know the old Kato could sit in 91% for days and the paint barely be touched. I got a newer SD40-2 Mid and put it in the 91% and the paint fell off like most others. the only time I have had a problem with 91% ISO is with a resin cab when I was getting back into the hobby. The ISO warped the cab and took away a lot of detail.
I use a three inch PVC pipe with one capped end to hold my ISO alcohol. I cover the other end with a plastic bag and rubber band. This way I can filter the alcohol after around 5 uses and I can disassemble the pipe to clean if needed.
Hope this helps.
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 26, 2020 12:27:35 GMT -8
91% isopropyl alcohol works most of the time for me, too. If that fails I switch up to the scalecoat remover and between the two of them I've managed to strip just about everything except an ornery Broadway Limited shell.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 26, 2020 12:43:39 GMT -8
91% isopropyl alcohol works most of the time for me, too. If that fails I switch up to the scalecoat remover and between the two of them I've managed to strip just about everything except an ornery Broadway Limited shell. What's the best bet for Broadway shells?
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Post by cemr5396 on Jul 26, 2020 13:07:12 GMT -8
If the shell is reacting badly to the brake fluid, there's a chance it's already toast. Even if you can fix the existing damage, the plastic may continue breaking down over time. A friend of a friend had a fully finished model slowly disintegrate over time due to the earlier brake fluid bath it had taken.
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 26, 2020 13:14:40 GMT -8
Good point. It breaking down means the brake fluid is being absorbed into the plastic.
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sd50f
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Posts: 101
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Post by sd50f on Jul 26, 2020 13:31:10 GMT -8
If the shell is reacting badly to the brake fluid, there's a chance it's already toast. Even if you can fix the existing damage, the plastic may continue breaking down over time. A friend of a friend had a fully finished model slowly disintegrate over time due to the earlier brake fluid bath it had taken. Yeah. I was afraid of that. I don't really want to put a ton of work, a Kaslo fret kit, and a decent paint and decal job on to a locomotive only to have it disintegrate. Well, there's a project that can be shelved until I find a new shell. And if I don't find a new shell...that chassis will go from an F40PH chassis to an F59PH chassis. Easy enough. Thanks for the responses, everyone. Timothy Dineen
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Post by sd40dash2 on Jul 26, 2020 13:32:30 GMT -8
I recommend putting the F40 shell aside for a while to see if further deterioration occurs.
70% took the paint off a late-1990s shell in minutes whereas a 5-10 year old caboose required a lot more time in 99% to strip.
There are many variables as to what product works with what shell. Brake fluid is a more aggressive method that should only be employed when safer options like alcohol have first been attempted without success.
Good luck.
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Post by valenciajim on Jul 26, 2020 13:53:50 GMT -8
I had good results with Windex the last time I stripped a model. I have heard of others having problems with brake fluid and I have avoided usin git. I also have had good luck with alcohol, but it is in short supply my local CVS these days.
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Post by craigz on Jul 27, 2020 4:59:44 GMT -8
Really sorry to see that shell ruined. And make no mistake, it's ruined The plastics we're getting today are not the same stuff that Athearn used years ago. I wouldn't use brake fluid on anything made outside the US and frankly wouldn't use brake fluid, period. Scalecoat Rinse-Away is similar to brake fluid - just give it a whiff. I won't use it any more for that reason. Chameleon was good stuff but would also attack Kato ABS plastics. I'm at the point where if I can't get it off with alcohol, I'm not stripping the model.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 27, 2020 6:25:47 GMT -8
Plastics in the olden days weren't impervious to brake fluid, either. In the late '70's, I had a friend who used it on Atlas shells. Successfully, for awhile. And then it ate a shell. He then declared it had to be USED brake fluid, which was also successful. Until it ate another shell.
It's weird how the stuff can work well most of the time. And then ruin a shell. It seems likely that there's some sort of "contaminant" in the plastic (as in zinc pest), but what is it? And how can you test for it?
Ed
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Post by schroed2 on Jul 27, 2020 6:39:21 GMT -8
Plastics in the olden days weren't impervious to brake fluid, either. In the late '70's, I had a friend who used it on Atlas shells. Successfully, for awhile. And then it ate a shell. He then declared it had to be USED brake fluid, which was also successful. Until it ate another shell. It's weird how the stuff can work well most of the time. And then ruin a shell. It seems likely that there's some sort of "contaminant" in the plastic (as in zinc pest), but what is it? And howws can you test for it? Ed if it was a shell produced by Roco in Austria for Atlas, I am not surprised (after brake fluid ate some of my Roco shells back in the nineties...). I think it has something to do with a softening component in the plastic used for the shells, which reacts with something in the brake fluid. Bernd
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 27, 2020 6:51:21 GMT -8
if it was a shell produced by Roco in Austria for Atlas... I am sure they were Roco. I never tried using the stuff, and I don't recall if he used it on anything other than the Atlas shells. It was easy to get Athearn undec shells back then*, so no one would bother stripping them. After that, you got into Tyco, Revell, Gilbert and such. Ed *the local shop used to have them hanging on a pegboard
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Post by jonklein611 on Jul 27, 2020 6:52:57 GMT -8
Plastics in the olden days weren't impervious to brake fluid, either. In the late '70's, I had a friend who used it on Atlas shells. Successfully, for awhile. And then it ate a shell. He then declared it had to be USED brake fluid, which was also successful. Until it ate another shell. It's weird how the stuff can work well most of the time. And then ruin a shell. It seems likely that there's some sort of "contaminant" in the plastic (as in zinc pest), but what is it? And how can you test for it? Ed Not all brake fluids are created equally either. Formulas change over time.
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Post by 12bridge on Jul 27, 2020 8:03:47 GMT -8
Pine Sol is another trick from ye olden days. It would turn an Athearn into soup if you left it too long. I would never use anything but Alcohol. If it does not come off with that, it gets soda blasted.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 27, 2020 10:48:41 GMT -8
It's always interesting to revisit the topic of stripping model paint. I'm with Craig Z. that if it can't be stripped with 91%, I'm not going to mess with it. That's what still makes undecorated models so valuable to me (but "they don't sell," as many people will still tell you).
ExactRail and Broadway Limited paint have proved to be very resistant to 91% alcohol, in my experience. I tried to strip the paint of the trucks of an early ExactRail model (the SP PC&F 6033), and the paint just turned sort of gummy and stuck in place. One of their Thrall gons stripped about halfway, leaving areas around the side ribs and underframe that were still black, feathering away to areas of bare plastic in between. A Broadway N&W H2a hopper just kind of laughed at the alcohol. The paint pealed off the metal parts, but it stuck to the plastic virtually untouched. I attempted to strip it and the ExactRail gon with a grit blaster with some success, but neither came out completely clean. I think they have plenty of texture for the new paint job to adhere to though!
A Walthers Mainline 60' Pullman-Standard flat car (black EJ&E scheme) that I just stripped to turn into a Trailer Train flat worked pretty well, but the paint clung to the metal underframe in spots almost like a thin shell that can be chipped away. I may try a small wire brush to scrape the remnants off, because it's proving pretty tedious to scrape off with a Xacto blade.
Timothy, if you're looking for a replacement, I have an undecorated Walthers F40PH that I can let go. Just have to find it somewhere in all these moving boxes...
Dave
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 27, 2020 12:01:13 GMT -8
91% isopropyl alcohol works most of the time for me, too. If that fails I switch up to the scalecoat remover and between the two of them I've managed to strip just about everything except an ornery Broadway Limited shell. What's the best bet for Broadway shells? Unfortunately, I never did find something good for Broadway Limited paint, I ended up tracking down an undec on ebay and figuring out a different project for the decorated model.
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sd50f
Full Member
Posts: 101
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Post by sd50f on Jul 27, 2020 15:14:07 GMT -8
Hello again.
I never thought my poor F40PH would turn into a fantastic discussion like this. It's great to hear so many suggestions for stripping paint and theories as to what went wrong. I've used other things to strip paint before, and the results are as follows:
Pine Sol - great on everything except Walthers shells. Leaves an odor even after the shell has been cleaned and painted. 70% isopropyl alcohol - it took the dust off a shell, but that's all. 91% isopropyl alcohol - P2K shells were cleaned fast. Athearn shells were cleaned, unless it was Seaboard System paint. Then you needed muscles and a good toothbrush. Simple Green - cleaned everything. Paint was gone. Too bad WalMart up here decided to get rid of it. I think I bought the last two bottles. Easy Off - did an amazing job, but the smell was unwelcome in my workshop. Brake Fluid - great on everything except Walthers shells. And unfortunately, it was the only one on hand when I decided to strip those two shells. Also, keep it away from resin...
I would use actual paint stripper intended for models, except that's a five hour one way trip to a hobby store, and Canada Post isn't always happy to deliver chemicals out here. I am considering an air eraser, as I am starting to enjoy using the airbrush and finding undecorated models isn't always easy.
Something about those Walthers shells...I'm thinking either the shells are not styrene, or they're a styrene/something else blend. If I had my notes from the polymer chemistry course I took...oh wait...most of those notes would probably be out of date by now. That was a long time ago.
Dave, I thank you for the generous offer of the shell, but I think I'm going to go with trashing the melting shell and turning the chassis into the beginning of GO Transit # 528.
Thank you everyone for the discussion. Between this one and the one on tooling (part of the reason I took that polymer chemistry course...only to do nothing with it), I'm really enjoying some of the things being brought up.
Timothy Dineen
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 27, 2020 15:36:07 GMT -8
Timothy, Don't forget SuperClean: superclean.com/products/superclean-cleaner-degreaser/I use it frequently for stripping paint. It has never reacted with any plastic parts or body shells I've dealt with. It was originally recommended to me to remove the chrome plating found on some vehicle kits and it is very effective at doing that. I also discovered it is an excellent paint stripper for plastic models.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 27, 2020 15:46:25 GMT -8
Easy Off - did an amazing job, but the smell was unwelcome in my workshop. The active ingredient in Easy Off is sodium hydroxide. Lye. A solution of sodium hydroxide will have no smell, but will do just as good a job. I recommend a highly concentrated solution. When I've used it, I've left the items in for days, with no bad effects. It's low cost, and you can get it at a hardware store. And, to dispose of it, you can dump it down the drain. Which is what it is sold for. Ed
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Post by trainguy99 on Jul 27, 2020 18:02:01 GMT -8
Timothy, Don't forget SuperClean: superclean.com/products/superclean-cleaner-degreaser/I use it frequently for stripping paint. It has never reacted with any plastic parts or body shells I've dealt with. It was originally recommended to me to remove the chrome plating found on some vehicle kits and it is very effective at doing that. I also discovered it is an excellent paint stripper for plastic models. I've had decent luck with SuperClean and even with a strong solution of laundry detergent in some cases.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jul 28, 2020 21:03:51 GMT -8
I bought a heavily painted brass Pennsy stainless MU car a few years ago that I never have finished stripping. Somebody put about three thick coats of floquil on it, which was always a bear to strip, even shells I used their barrier on would have a bit of a tint of the paint color left. I used lacquer thinner on it and got most of the paint off, but the ends and step wells and things it wouldn't put a dent in.
I just kind of forgot about it, my concern there was to not use anything that would take the nickel finish off the brass.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jul 30, 2020 11:53:26 GMT -8
The last dozen or so strip jobs I’ve done were with 90% alcohol. I used new brake fluid years ago and hated the feel of it if I rushed in w/out gloves. The green paint strip, Scalecoat?, feels very much like brake fluid in texture. I’ve had good luck with it. Brake fluid seemed to me to change the makeup of plastic I’ve not used it since blue box stuff became scorned.
I’m always bemused by all the effort and wrecked expensive models using folk remedies when there are legit products out there to strip paint most of the time. “Most of the time” is the qualifier that stumps us all so much.
The air eraser seems to be a valid alternative to chemicals if used cautiously. I use a glass bead blaster cabinet for steel toy trucks I restore and 1:1 auto parts. Too aggressive for ho plastic models tho. You’d need a catching means for used blast material with the eraser. Her dining table probably wouldn’t do well for a harmonious relationship.
91% alcohol is my #2 solution for the paint projects. #1 is the seldom seen cuz “they don’t sell” UndecRR motivepower or Data Only rolling stock. I stripped a Scaletrains SD40-T2 with alcohol. It went well. Reassembly was mind boggling though due to waiting 6 months after stripping it to get ready to paint and the number of parts and tight fits with the new paint. Some parts were mighty fragile, too.
Best of luck to everyone with their “Soup deJour”. It’d be terrific if there was a standard for factory model paints since most importers are too boneheaded to think undecs are a valid product.
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 30, 2020 13:49:49 GMT -8
Just an FYI while on the topic of stripping paint:
I stripped a factory painted Accurail covered hopper a few days ago. 91% alcohol did the job over a 24-hour period. I just had to use a toothbrush to finish the job and get in all the nooks and crannies. I wasn't sure if 91% alcohol would do the job but it went well. Of course, Accurail is not one you usually have to worry about since they do offer undecs, but in this case it's what I had on hand.
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Post by myoungwisc on Mar 26, 2023 8:57:16 GMT -8
Following up on this thread - a Kaslo boxcar that I painted a number of years ago has begun to chip in a number of places. I'd like to strip the resin and repaint it - what would be the best solution for this task? Simple Green?
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Post by Baikal on Mar 26, 2023 9:47:29 GMT -8
Following up on this thread - a Kaslo boxcar that I painted a number of years ago has begun to chip in a number of places. I'd like to strip the resin and repaint it - what would be the best solution for this task? Simple Green?
Depends on the paint. Try 99% isopropyl or denatured/ethyl alcohol. The 91% stuff is watered-down but will probably work. Alcohol won't hurt the resin.
After turning a model to rubber, I'll never use brake fluid again.
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Post by loco8107 on Mar 26, 2023 10:13:54 GMT -8
To be safe, always use the 91% as I’m sure it’s a lot cheaper too…..
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Post by nsc39d8 on Mar 26, 2023 10:38:54 GMT -8
Following up on this thread - a Kaslo boxcar that I painted a number of years ago has begun to chip in a number of places. I'd like to strip the resin and repaint it - what would be the best solution for this task? Simple Green? DO NOT put that Kaslo car in 91% ISO! I used a kasha cab for a CN Dash 9 and had problems with the paint while drying, noticed a big run or something come up. Per usual I put it in my stripping container with 91% Iso. When I retrieved it the next day the cab was ruined. The resin deformed in the Iso. Talking with the person I bought the cab from(don't remember the name of the store) I was told that the resin Kaslo uses does not like 91% Iso. It was also at this time I found that using Tamiya fine surface primer worked best on Kaslo models. Don't remember if I used a primer the first time or not. Hope this helps!
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Post by myoungwisc on Mar 26, 2023 11:33:06 GMT -8
Thanks James - I remembered hearing something about Kaslo resin negatively reacting to 91% Iso.
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