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Post by talltim on Sept 16, 2020 11:55:01 GMT -8
Yeah, sorry I thought you were talking about model couplers.
Three link couplers were the standard for many years in the UK and mainland Europe. Unfitted (no automatic brakes) vehicles had a plain three section chain while fitted vehicles had screw link, where the middle link could be shortened to bring the buffers into light compression. A third variety was the Instanter, which had a middle link which could be rotated to shorten the chain once it was over the hook.
A 2/3rds size buckeye started to be used for passenger vehicles by some railways in the UK from the 1930s and became standard by the 60s, but they also required the corridor connection to be under compression to provide buffing forces. The buckeye could drop down to reveal a hook for coupling to locos.
I’m less certain mainland European practice, I think automatic brakes came a lot earlier, but I’m not sure they moved to buckeyes for passenger stock
Nowadays in the UK about half of freight stock has buckeyes and some locos are fitted with dropdown ones. Most passenger stock is multiple unit and there are variety of auto coupler designs, some of which are (stupidly) only different in their wiring.
It all means that a reasonably prototypical coupling like the Kadee is impossible, Kadee, even with the trip pin, are one of the big selling points of US modelling for UK modellers.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 16, 2020 12:37:35 GMT -8
Tim‘s picture is showing the standard european HO coupler. It has nothing to do with the prototype, which are, as you described, tension bars that have to be hooked manually to the other car before bringing it to tension. It‘s visible in Tim‘s prototype picture. There was an effort by the UIC to establish an automatic coupler in the 70s but conversion would have been too expensive for most railroads. However, knuckle couplers can be seen on german ore trains due to high towing weights. Also modern commuter trains use the Scharfenberg automatic coupler to combine EMUs. European model train couplers in ho scale are REALLY far from being as standardized as in the USA. It is a real mess once you come to short couplering. There are norms (the NEM) but manufacturers don‘t really care, at least in Germany. Standard SA3 automatic coupler is used in the following countries.
Europe: Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Azerbaijan, Georgia. Asia: Armenia, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan.
Plus some use in Sweden, Norway, Finland, Poland, others.
An improvement over the Janney coupler, trains of up to 48,000 tons have been handled.
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 16, 2020 13:06:47 GMT -8
According to the wiki article you linked the "48,000" ton train have several locomotives distributed throughout it. Also, it says they tried out Janney's as the SA3's had not been tested much above 8,000 tons.
Doesn't sound like an improvement. Used to run 16,000 ton coal trains with 5 SD's on the point...No DP.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 16, 2020 13:28:16 GMT -8
According to the wiki article you linked the "48,000" ton train have several locomotives distributed throughout it. Also, it says they tried out Janney's as the SA3's had not been tested much above 8,000 tons. Doesn't sound like an improvement.
Long, heavy trains with helpers/distributed power? So what? That's common everywhere. 48,000 tons (no quotes) is heavy train by any standard.
SA3s were developed in the 1930s, well after Janneys. Don't understand your 2nd sentence- "they" refers only to the IORE Swedish mining railroad. And they decided on SA3s, not Janneys. USSR could have used Janneys. Tested them, chose a more modern coupler.
Russian trains look suprisingly similar to those in the US. Lots of high-side drop-bottom gons. Heavy, well-built ROW. Expanding electrification. Rib-side passenger and freight cars... Plenty of videos & photos on line. Railfanning is popular.
Also: "The new European Automatic Center Coupler (C-AKv) has been based on this coupler, with the extended features of automatic brake and electric couplings. It also has vertical stability added, so that the coupling cannot fall down and damage the tracks or cause a derailment. It is compatible with the standard SA3 coupler...
SA3 is a modern heavy-duty automatic coupler in wide use across much of Europe.
Here's a 4-unit 6,600 ton coal train leaving the yard and smoking it up:
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 16, 2020 14:46:35 GMT -8
You claim it is an improvement over the Janney and seemingly use the train of "48,000 tons" as an example. Insinuating, by omission, that it wasn't a DP train. Once you throw DP units in the mix the stresses go down. The whole point of DP. Pro tip- One would rip the cars in two if the couplers were strong enough for that.
A 4 unit, 6600 ton train is a fart in a hurricane compared to most any unit train in the US. And as I said, we (meaning me, on CP/Soo) used to run 16,000 tons with 5 SD's on the point with no helpers or DP consistently. And, have run as much as 18,500 with all power on the head end. That was pretty much the coupler limit for that territory. And yes, 5 SD's will put out enough TE to break couplers in a straight pull at low speeds, like accelerating out of a siding. Some guys had problems with that.
The better comparison is what they are rated at in pull force. 400k for the Janneys. No idea on the SA3's as I didn't see it in the wiki entry, but from the tonnage claims I'd say not nearly as much.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 16, 2020 17:56:28 GMT -8
You claim it is an improvement over the Janney and seemingly use the train of "48,000 tons" as an example. Insinuating, by omission, that it wasn't a DP train. Once you throw DP units in the mix the stresses go down. The whole point of DP. Pro tip- One would rip the cars in two if the couplers were strong enough for that. A 4 unit, 6600 ton train is a fart in a hurricane compared to most any unit train in the US. And as I said, we (meaning me, on CP/Soo) used to run 16,000 tons with 5 SD's on the point with no helpers or DP consistently. And, have run as much as 18,500 with all power on the head end. That was pretty much the coupler limit for that territory. And yes, 5 SD's will put out enough TE to break couplers in a straight pull at low speeds, like accelerating out of a siding. Some guys had problems with that. The better comparison is what they are rated at in pull force. 400k for the Janneys. No idea on the SA3's as I didn't see it in the wiki entry, but from the tonnage claims I'd say not nearly as much.
Why the "48,000 tons" in quotes again? Quote marks are used for quotations or to mark something that is "not really true". Train actually was 48,000 tons. I already mentioned it had helpers/DP. It's a big train.
Ok, USA#1 with coupler design from previous century. You win. Didn't mean to upset you. USA, USA, USA #1 in everything, yay. Multiple heavy ore haulers in Scandanavia had a choice but chose the Russian coupler. Maybe Putin has something on the CEOs. They are doing it all wrong. Russian coupler bad!
Janneys transmit pulling force through the knuckle. Which is why it's not uncommon to break knuckles. But field repair is simple. They are like fuses that way. But SA3s pull through the coupler body so are probably stronger (I didn't see data either, too lazy to look. But probably, why not?). That means a failure due to excessive pulling forces will damage the entire coupler body. No one is carrying a coupler body 50 car lengths, even strong like bear Russky.
The video was simply an example of nifty Russian train with opposed-pistion FM-like engines. That's all. Sorry if you were offended.
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 16, 2020 18:16:38 GMT -8
Pointing out that you are wrong does not mean I am offended. Have a nice evening.
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 16, 2020 19:33:49 GMT -8
How did this thread devolve from replacing Kadee HO couplers with Sargent to arguing over real couplers used in Europe and how well they work.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 16, 2020 20:21:01 GMT -8
How did this thread devolve from replacing Kadee HO couplers with Sargent to arguing over real couplers used in Europe and how well they work. Glad you asked! It's mostly the title of the topic. thebessemerkid caught it first, but I think I really moved it along. Don't EVER put the word "sin" in the title of a topic if you want to stay on topic. I'd stay away from "nude", "naked", and "NMRA" too. Ed |
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Post by grabirons on Sept 21, 2020 18:26:42 GMT -8
Let's see those polished up wheels! I have a few kadee cars and of those few have polished the wheels using one of my track cleaning erasers, or whatever they're called.I don't want to scratch up the wheel surfaces with anything more abrasive, if i were to use something in a dremel, what would be a good item to use to polish the wheels? The kadee wheel sets then look even more realistic looking than any metal wheels from any other company.
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Post by edgecrusher on Sept 24, 2020 8:27:12 GMT -8
Let's see those polished up wheels! I have a few kadee cars and of those few have polished the wheels using one of my track cleaning erasers, or whatever they're called.I don't want to scratch up the wheel surfaces with anything more abrasive, if i were to use something in a dremel, what would be a good item to use to polish the wheels? The kadee wheel sets then look even more realistic looking than any metal wheels from any other company. I don't have a picture handy, but I use a very small wire wheel in my dremel. I do it VERY carefully with the wheel set in the truck so they spin with the wire brush. It takes some practice to not nick up the back or the face of the wheel but it gets easy once you have a feel for it. And its way faster then trying to mask them. |
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Post by edgecrusher on Sept 30, 2020 7:29:21 GMT -8
In further response to Grabirons question, here is the wire wheel I use for this. They come in a multi pack of sizes and shapes from Harbor Freight. The narrow one is good for wheel treads, some of the others I have used to distress wood on a lower setting.
And the Kadee wheels shined up.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 30, 2020 7:30:29 GMT -8
I need to get me one of those!
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Post by edgecrusher on Sept 30, 2020 7:55:46 GMT -8
I need to get me one of those! Go for it. There honestly isn't much that I go to Harbor Freight for, but they aren't bad for abrasives and other disposable type things. A word of warning on the wire brushes, make sure you have some kind of safety glasses when you use them. They tend to "shed" a bit at higher RPMs. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 30, 2020 9:11:44 GMT -8
From my own experience of cleaning hundreds of car wheels with a Dremel, I can add a few tips about cleaning/polishing wheels:
1). Do not let the wheel spin freely. No HO truck was ever made to stand up to 6000rpm. A fellow at my club did so and melted the sideframes. I would imagine that doing so on a Kadee truck would cause the plastic axle end to melt as well. I use my thumb on the opposite wheel to act as a brake.
2). Wear a dust mask. The dirt and blackening that comes off HO wheels goes everywhere, including up your nose. The first time I cleaned wheels, I had to stop and sneeze. You don't want to know what the tissue looked like.
3). As edgecrusher says, use eye protection. The wire brush, no matter the kind, sheds wires and you don't want them in your eyes.
4). Personally, I only use Dremel-brand brass wire wheels. Other kinds (steel wire wheels and/or non-Dremel brands) that I've tried will strip the plating right off a metal rail wheel. Since Kadee wheels are cast in white metal it's not a problem, but for plated rail wheels you have to use a wire wheel that's softer than the plating or you'll have yellow wheel treads instead of silver ones.
5). I wear a rubber glove on my left hand when doing this because the stuff that comes off the wheels can get your braking hand quite dirty if you do enough of them at the same time.
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Post by edgecrusher on Sept 30, 2020 9:37:08 GMT -8
Paul,
Very good points you added, thank you. Its funny how many steps can go into the simplest of things we do. Cleaning wheel treads like that is such a common thing for me that I really don't even think about it. These mundane repetitive things can sometimes be the hardest to explain.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 30, 2020 11:36:34 GMT -8
1). Do not let the wheel spin freely. No HO truck was ever made to stand up to 6000rpm. A fellow at my club did so and melted the sideframes. I would imagine that doing so on a Kadee truck would cause the plastic axle end to melt as well. I use my thumb on the opposite wheel to act as a brake. If you're running your Dremel tool at 6000 RPM (that's at the slow end of the range), and your wire wheel is 1" in diameter, the wheel will be turning at 18,000 RPM (assuming no slippage at the interface). If you want to have REAL fun, kit that bad boy up to the max of 35,000 RPM. Then you'll be spinning those wheels at about 100,000 RPM. Ed |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 30, 2020 12:18:40 GMT -8
I wind my Demel up in the upper range when cutting rail. The rail gets pretty hot so I put heat sinks on to keep the ties from getting soft.
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