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Post by riogrande on Sept 16, 2020 11:15:18 GMT -8
Nah, probably a sound from Star Trek the next Generation to "poke" the Rapido haters.
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Post by jonklein611 on Sept 16, 2020 11:35:37 GMT -8
Nah, probably a sound from Star Trek the next Generation to "poke" the Rapido haters. They already did that on the LRC My F40's have clips from "The Muppet Show" and i forget what the FP9's and RCD's have in them.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 16, 2020 11:40:00 GMT -8
Nah, probably a sound from Star Trek the next Generation to "poke" the Rapido haters. They already did that on the LRC My F40's have clips from "The Muppet Show" and i forget what the FP9's and RCD's have in them. Same idea, same result.
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 16, 2020 15:35:20 GMT -8
Nah, probably a sound from Star Trek the next Generation to "poke" the Rapido haters. They already did that on the LRC My F40's have clips from "The Muppet Show" and i forget what the FP9's and RCD's have in them. Red alert and photon torpedoes.
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Post by espeenut on Sept 16, 2020 16:29:12 GMT -8
...getting back to the SP&S color on the FA's, SP&S is one of the Pacific Northwest roads that I model, I've already got 2 RS-3's, a C424 and 425, a Baldwin VO1000 and 2 C636's - all in the correct color. I was going to get the FA's until I saw the pictures and it was a definite 'no go'... I have a number of Rapido cars and a Rapido CN GMD1 all gorgeous and amazing! When they get it right it's really right, but the SP&S FA's aren't in the latter category, simple as that, nuff said...
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Post by Baikal on Sept 16, 2020 18:06:07 GMT -8
...getting back to the SP&S color on the FA's, SP&S is one of the Pacific Northwest roads that I model, I've already got 2 RS-3's, a C424 and 425, a Baldwin VO1000 and 2 C636's - all in the correct color. I was going to get the FA's until I saw the pictures and it was a definite 'no go'... I have a number of Rapido cars and a Rapido CN GMD1 all gorgeous and amazing! When they get it right it's really right, but the SP&S FA's aren't in the latter category, simple as that, nuff said...
That's too bad. Seems like a simple matter to get the SP&S colors right, or at least very close. Especially with help from historical societies, knowlegable modelers, and existing models that have alreay gotten a thumbs-up.
Rapido has tended to over-promise and under-deliver. But most of their stuff is great. ScaleTrains, Tangent, Moloco tend to suprise to the upside.
There's something I don't like about Rapido's marketing. Can't put my finger on it, but it has always rubbed me wrong. Call it a 6th sense. If I want anything they make I'll get it pre-owned from a 3rd party.
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Post by NS4122 on Sept 17, 2020 8:06:22 GMT -8
So now we have someone not liking Rapido, but they don't know why. Really? Does that count toward the "picking on them for every little thing" category?.
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rs11
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Post by rs11 on Sept 17, 2020 9:37:57 GMT -8
Why is it, going back as much as 15 years, to the original Atlas forums, that every time someone, on these or the original forums, sides apparently "too closely" with a manufacturer, that they are automatically labeled as being some kind of "paid shill" or "undercover manufacturer's representative"? Why is it that certain manufacturers are somehow "in" and others are most definitely "out" of the "cool" group?
And you want to know why more than one manufacturer's representative no longer bothers to post on these forums? Seriously?
There are some fantastic modelers on these forums, and yet others were driven away or just left.
Athearn Genesis made a mistake on Lehigh Valley New Cornell Red, and got some abuse, despite offering brand new replacement shells for dealers to install on their own, but not the multiple pages of abuse that Rapido received for the same apparently "mortal sin".
Some are saying ScaleTrains offers a higher level of quality than Rapido. Like seriously, what are you smoking? I've purchased several products of both, and simply disagree with that statement.
It's easy to come on internet forums and pontificate about what the manufactuer(s) should be doing, especially if you've never tried to manufacture anything yourself.
Instruction manuals? Seriously? Rapido tries to make a boring manual, which most folks will never read, entertaining? I actually think it's funny and cool. But apparently it's a sin to have any fun in this hobby, anymore.
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Post by gevohogger on Sept 17, 2020 9:55:05 GMT -8
...every time someone sides apparently "too closely" with a manufacturer, that they are automatically labeled as being some kind of "paid shill" or "undercover manufacturer's representative"?
Says the guy who just joined today, in his very first post?
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rs11
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Post by rs11 on Sept 17, 2020 11:01:01 GMT -8
Yeah, gevohogger--
Since you want to know my profession, what's your profession? Who pays you? Even part time?
I get paid to design things, but not model trains. However, I do know a thing or two about actual real-world manufacturing in America, and most of these remaining "importers" are doing a fantastic job imo.
I do not get paid by any current train manufacturer, and have not been paid by any in years. Most certainly I have never worked for a Canadian company in any field, which precludes the obvious assumption, since I like RS-11's.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 17, 2020 11:23:04 GMT -8
Some are saying ScaleTrains offers a higher level of quality than Rapido. Like seriously, what are you smoking? I've purchased several products of both, and simply disagree with that statement. And I disagree with your statement. I'm not smoking anything. Of the products I've gotten or considered getting over the past year or two, I find the ScaleTrains quality better than Rapido. That's on average, of course. I found the NP boxcars just about perfect. If I cherry picked, I would put those cars above the two ST SD40-2's I got that have wavy handrails (ST replaced them). I could list all the stuff I bought (or rejected) from both, and I could list the problems. Not gonna, have other things to do. I'm not a fanboy or basher of either line. I just want Rapido to shape up--to raise the percentage of "winners" up towards 100%. They SHOULD by now know there's a problem, and should be addressing it. The SW1200 will be a good test case. And the new RS-11's. I've got three of each on order, so it's safe to say I haven't abandoned the company. Got some ST stuff on order too. Ed
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Post by lars on Sept 17, 2020 11:26:24 GMT -8
So now we have someone not liking Rapido, but they don't know why. Really? Does that count toward the "picking on them for every little thing" category?. I think Baikal hit the mark by comparing Rapdio and brands that consistently under promise and over deliver. Companies need to be much more sensitive to the expectations they're setting. When products cost 3-5 times more than they did 20 years ago and are announced a year or more in advance, there is a lot more expectation on the part of a consumer. And yes, is truly sucks when you've been told something is great, waited a year, shelled out hundreds of dollars, and are disappointed. There are a lot of things that set expectations: manufacturer statements, price, past performance, support after the sale and others I'm sure. I think these long release times compound the matter as well. Rapido sets their expectations pretty high. They promise a lot, they charge some of the highest prices in the industry, and their track record is pretty decent. Unfortunately when you do that, there's a lot less room to exceed one's expectations. Expectations could be lowered if a series of duds come out, but then you can't charge high prices when you do that, either. Some other brands have more leeway because the expectations are lower, either by price, humility on the part of the brand or past performance. Is the Rapdio bashing fair? I don't know, but it seems that they've set the highest expectations and haven't given themselves a lot of room for error.
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Post by gevohogger on Sept 17, 2020 11:52:41 GMT -8
Yeah, gevohogger--
Since you want to know my profession, what's your profession? Who pays you? Even part time?
I never asked for your profession.
I do however suspect you've been a member here before, although leaving and coming back doesn't seem to be against the rules. We've had many of those folks already.
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Rapido Q&A
Sept 17, 2020 12:13:02 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by csxt8400 on Sept 17, 2020 12:13:02 GMT -8
And btw, Athearn get's a lot of heat here too. I am often vocal about those.
The "in" companies tend to be the ones who dont argue or ignore the feedback, and who consistently bring quality products that are well researched.
Rapido has had many gaffes in just the last few years. The skepticism is warranted. Same with Athearn.
Scaletrains has some of the best customer service in regards to ease of getting in touch and dealing with physical issues.
Tangent has been 2nd to none, always on the ball and willing to replace defective items as soon as possible. Lightning fast email response times.
Some companies get bashed more because they make more mistakes, or the level of the mistake is more egregious. I still buy Rapido products but I'm not going to forgive their errors when they make them. Athearn as well, they make products I want or need but I'm always leery of the finished product standing up to the image I preordered off of.
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Post by TBird1958 on Sept 17, 2020 12:19:22 GMT -8
Some are saying ScaleTrains offers a higher level of quality than Rapido. Like seriously, what are you smoking? I've purchased several products of both, and simply disagree with that statement.
Not sorry, but Scale Trains freight cars are far better than Rapido's efforts to date, it's not even close, Rapido's cars aren't bad but they're not at the same level of quality or fidelity as ST, for the record I have some from each, side by side comparison make this obvious.....So what are you smoking?
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Post by mdvle on Sept 17, 2020 12:25:23 GMT -8
So now we have someone not liking Rapido, but they don't know why. Really? Does that count toward the "picking on them for every little thing" category?. They promise a lot, they charge some of the highest prices in the industry,
I think there also needs to be a bit of a reality check and acknowledge that times have changed.
Whether it be a combination of moving into higher volume items allowing Rapido to avoid price increases or the other manufacturers facing a reality of China, Rapido is no longer the "highest prices in the industry" like they were 10 years ago.
Some recent product announcements, prices for DCC with sound, from Trainworld (chosen at random, except ScaleTrains where it is the discounted price direct).
Bachmann Charger - $270 Rapido H16-44 - $270 ScaleTrains ES44 - $280 Genesis GP18 - $255 Genesis Dash-9 - $289
If people want to bash Rapido for their prices, then they need to bash everyone else - particularly Bachmann given that the Charger is unlikely to be a Genesis/Rapido/ScaleTrains Rivet Counter level model.
Otherwise people just need to accept that Rapido is simply the same price as everyone else.
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rs11
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Post by rs11 on Sept 17, 2020 13:34:06 GMT -8
Look, not out to be purely argumentative, but:
It seems to me that certain manufacturers have been unfairly castigated by members of these forums. Lately, yeah, Rapido, but there have been others...MTH (gasp)...plenty of Walthers haters too (their lack of spare parts, etc.).
LV red has many different shades. There's New Cornell Red and regular "old" Cornell Red, and Tuscan Red and various shades of red depending upon what the paint shop had on hand, all of which I'm told is true. Then there's all kinds of issues with color photo developing, reproduction, digitizing, color shift and our crappy phones that mess up the colors we "think" we see. If somebody doesn't like a color, don't buy the model, period. That's it.
But I've also seen photos online of people holding said model up next to color photos of the real thing, and darn it, the Rapido model actually looks like a good match.
Others will disagree. It's still a free country, last time I checked. I know some LV modelers in person that are going to weather the crap out of it anyway, so they outright laugh at the pages on these forums devoted to LV red.
Let's see: it's actually uneconomical to model ALL versions of a given B36-7. I could have told you that much. What you maybe don't know is there are plenty of other "state of the art" HO models, on the market now, where the exact same decisions had to be made. Not all versions can be modeled economically. It just isn't possible, and, fortunately for the manufacturers in question nobody, not even Diesel Era's writers, caught and catalogued all the model versions that actually exist. Lucky for them the variations "slipped" through, at least until models are 10 years old and people don't really care anymore.
Most manufacturers, at one time or another are "guilty" of over-promising. Genesis was at one time...then they perhaps toned that down a bit, but now we have Genesis 2.0. Not everything promised in the Genesis ads for the SD90MAC-H was actually delivered. Am I going to come on here and trash them for that? No. It's not worth my time, and I understand there's actual limitations to what can be delivered and then there's just mistakes by marketing people. I'm happy with what they are delivering. Maybe they got so far into a project and just couldn't do everything for the planned budget. It happens.
They all "over-promise". To single out one is...well not right. And no HO model will ever be 100% perfect.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 17, 2020 19:50:29 GMT -8
Putting in the air quotes kind of minimizes the words. One could wonder why you felt the need. Let's leave them out and do full-caps: OVER-PROMISE overpromise: to promise more than is possible or realistic Sounds so much like lying. Or incompetence. Doesn't sound very good, though, whatever it is. "They all 'over-promise'."* They're all liars. Or imcompetent. Good to know. I surely hope it's OK to talk about what they over-promised--which things they said they'd deliver--which things they actually delivered. Or is that somehow off-limits? Absolutely true. Well. What if one over-promises a lot more than others? Would that count as singling out? Or is it just deciding that the biggest over-promiser deserves the biggest discussion? NO. I'm not naming names. I'm just exploring the logic of the statement. You state that as if it hasn't been known ever since the first HO model was made. That is nowhere near a revelation nor an insight. You might as well say steam engines go chuff chuff. However. You MIGHT have noticed that the current GP9 offerings are a LOT closer to 100% than Irv's old wide body. !00% is obviously unobtainable. But yet we modelers still try to push towards it. Well, maybe not everyone. Ed *It's so interesting that you assure us that they ALL overpromise. I do hope ALL of them are taking account of your evaluation. It strikes me that some of them might want to disagree with your statement. Maybe. Thinking over the manufacturers I know, I could SWEAR there was at least one or two who didn't over-promise. But if that were true, it would make your statement false. Yikes!
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rs11
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Post by rs11 on Sept 18, 2020 7:37:04 GMT -8
Really? You'd rather I shout at you in all caps?
The manufacturers don't have time to be on here just reading threads if it doesn't pertain to them specifically. Maybe Rapido might read this one, but I seriously doubt the others are. They are too busy trying to get stuff made. Some have told me that.
Athearn Genesis: Since you seem to want more detail: I'm pretty sure their advertisements for the SD90MAC-H promised either working walkway lights or working step lights, or was it actually both (I don't have the announcement but remember reading it very clearly)? In any case, the dcc/sound models I actually have do not have that feature. It's not a deal breaker for me because they are still outstanding, but that is just one recent instance of over-promising, albeit however small.
And the statement about 100% accurate models? No, there are people on train forums that will argue that tooth and nail with me--that manufacturer xyz actually achieved that on some model.
You mentioned steam: Challenger via Samhongsa tried to produce steam models with accurate scale flanges (and thus more accurate axle spacings) back in the 1980's and '90's, and they didn't run well at all--couldn't do curves. They are still very expensive models, but they are not 100% accurate. It's simply not achievable in something that you are going to actually run and play with on an HO scale layout with what we might consider typical curvature. Most of the time, the compromises aren't noticeable. In steam, the axle spacings have to be adjusted for HO operation on every single model made. They try to hide it as best they can. With articulateds the manufacturer often has to cheat to enable 24" radius operation. Sometimes the back drivers pivot, too. They play games with the location of the pivot point (of even just front drivers) so that either the smokebox doesn't overhang outside the pilot so much, or the cab, or a balance of both--but it's a design choice made by the manufacturer of the model, and they must have greater swing of the front engine in HO than the prototype ever had, which sometimes affects piping locations.
I've bought a lot of products from a lot of different manufacturers. I fail to see that Rapido, despite a few mistakes, is any worse than the others. Actually, imo they are better than most. Their handrails alone on newest engines are better than most other handrails.
I'm not a SAL/ACL/SCL modeler, but I wouldn't have been that particularly concerned about the stepwells on a B36-7. Sure in my ideal world I'd want it right, and it was advertised that way, but not every phase or variation is possible to do.
Maybe the marketing department needs to better coordinate with the actual product designers more effectively.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 18, 2020 8:50:45 GMT -8
Really? You'd rather I shout at you in all caps?
No. I used the word "let's" rather than saying "you should". I thought it pretty clear that I capitalized it because I wanted to emphasize it in MY post. Yeah, I guess some people are just going to miss out on our discussion. I don't recall asking for more detail from you. Then you and I both agree (I think): They're wrong. Yes. I know. Nobody can do 100%. So your demonstration of my point is wasting both our times. You and I might have different shopping habits. Hey, we agree there, too. I probably would have accepted the stepwells. Some things are more acceptable than others. I decided not to accept wildly incorrect paint. In companies the size we deal with, I would have thought the marketing department and the product designers were in the same room. Or at least sat next to each other in the employee break room. Ed
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rs11
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Post by rs11 on Sept 18, 2020 9:09:47 GMT -8
Things move so fast...the person doing the marketing and the design team are clearly not always on the same page. That is why we are seeing over-promising. It tended not to happen, or was much less severe, when the head of the model train company also did all the drafting themselves and also did the advertising themselves--back 30 years ago. One person could do most everything then.
Today those same companies have matured. Many of them have experienced railfans in house; in some cases the entire staff of young(er) people are 20 and 30-somethings with railfan cred.
But if you've ever worked on a group project, where things change daily, it is far too easy for the marketing people to not be up to date with the design team. Or the budgets get shot and some little things get sacrificed to not exceed a specified break even cost on tooling.
One company told me they were going to have totally see-through side radiator screens on a given model, with the various hardware visible behind the screens, but in the final version, the screens are see through but there's a grey panel behind them. You can't see all the way through the model. Possibly a budget limitation. Maybe not possible to get the gear towers completely out of the way.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 18, 2020 9:13:31 GMT -8
All good points.
I do work on group projects, in construction. All hell happens if there's a lack of co-ordination and communication. Imagine what happens if the boss (marketing) says the job will be done before the rainy season.............
And, as we see, it can also happen in model railroad manufacturing.
Over-promising is a very risky tactic. And if it is risky, it is because failure DOES happen. Or it wouldn't be risky. It would be disappointing if everyone in model railroad manufacturing did it.
Ed
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rs11
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Post by rs11 on Sept 18, 2020 9:21:38 GMT -8
When dealing with China, sometimes the factory (some factories, NOT Rapido's, so far as I know) quotes a price to design and tool the entire engine, that is significantly less than what could ever be done in the states. As an experiment some manufacturers have bit and given us products that would never have existed had they been tooled here (I can't say which product without negatively impacting a manufacturer). However, when you let the Chinese do ALL the tooling and the design, stuff gets lost in translation, and some stuff gets done wrong. That is the tradeoff; the devil is in the details. The pilot models are critical in that case, and things can too easily slip through.
Plus there were those railroads that ordered custom cab modifications unique to only their road, when all others of a given model are different. Again, I can't discuss which custom cab or even name the railroad without negative publicity for a manufacturer. They don't need or want any blowback. In other cases there are handrail stanchion placement variations between different orders of the exact same engine model for a given railroad, resulting in "sub-phases" if you will that people never caught (you only find them when trying to make 3D model drawings). Only one phase can be modeled--the hole locations in the deck piece/walkway/whatever you want to call it would have to be physically different. Each set of handrails for a road diesel costs as a minimum $16000 to tool, and that price is outdated presently.
Produce the rare diesel, and let those across the pond do their best, or forget about it: that's the choice sometimes faced.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Sept 18, 2020 9:48:51 GMT -8
On two separate occasions while I was working with a manufacturer on a model, the person assigned to head the project switched out part way through the project. The new person had none of the files, photos, documents, notes, discussion, etc. that the previous lead had. We had to start over from scratch. I thought it was somewhat odd the information wasn't shared in the same staff. Interestingly, the items the first person said would be included on the model was different then the second person so we had to readdress what was actually going to be included on the model for road-specific detail - and road names offered. This could also be a reason for the discrepancy of what is advertised and what is delivered. I agree on the budget can get out of hand with overstated promises, but I appreciate as a modeler and consumer, the courtesy of we're not able to include that at this time message. I do appreciate manufacturer honesty if they can't do a detail and accept I'll have to add very road-specific details that even I didn't know about until a few years ago (they stick out like a sore thumb now after being pointed out). The staff I assist is generally open to ideas to make the base model better though not all changes can be made. They are very open to ensuring paint/lettering is correct and will add small details like trust data and small notification signs that would in previous generation of models not included. Things move so fast...the person doing the marketing and the design team are clearly not always on the same page. That is why we are seeing over-promising. It tended not to happen, or was much less severe, when the head of the model train company also did all the drafting themselves and also did the advertising themselves--back 30 years ago. One person could do most everything then.
Today those same companies have matured. Many of them have experienced railfans in house; in some cases the entire staff of young(er) people are 20 and 30-somethings with railfan cred.
But if you've ever worked on a group project, where things change daily, it is far too easy for the marketing people to not be up to date with the design team. Or the budgets get shot and some little things get sacrificed to not exceed a specified break even cost on tooling.
One company told me they were going to have totally see-through side radiator screens on a given model, with the various hardware visible behind the screens, but in the final version, the screens are see through but there's a grey panel behind them. You can't see all the way through the model. Possibly a budget limitation. Maybe not possible to get the gear towers completely out of the way.
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Post by jonklein611 on Sept 18, 2020 10:17:11 GMT -8
On two separate occasions while I was working with a manufacturer on a model, the person assigned to head the project switched out part way through the project. The new person had none of the files, photos, documents, notes, discussion, etc. that the previous lead had. We had to start over from scratch. I thought it was somewhat odd the information wasn't shared in the same staff. Interestingly, the items the first person said would be included on the model was different then the second person so we had to readdress what was actually going to be included on the model for road-specific detail - and road names offered. This could also be a reason for the discrepancy of what is advertised and what is delivered. I agree on the budget can get out of hand with overstated promises, but I appreciate as a modeler and consumer, the courtesy of we're not able to include that at this time message. I do appreciate manufacturer honesty if they can't do a detail and accept I'll have to add very road-specific details that even I didn't know about until a few years ago (they stick out like a sore thumb now after being pointed out). The staff I assist is generally open to ideas to make the base model better though not all changes can be made. They are very open to ensuring paint/lettering is correct and will add small details like trust data and small notification signs that would in previous generation of models not included. Changing project managers mid stream on a project is an easy way for things to get lost. I've seen it in all the industries I've been in.
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Rapido Q&A
Sept 18, 2020 11:05:34 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by The Ferro Kid on Sept 18, 2020 11:05:34 GMT -8
[/quote]Changing project managers mid stream on a project is an easy way for things to get lost. I've seen it in all the industries I've been in. [/quote]
Absolutely! And "tribal knowledge" is an unreliable data base at best. (Sometimes there isn't even a tribe ...)
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 18, 2020 11:28:07 GMT -8
The new person had none of the files, photos, documents, notes, discussion, etc. that the previous lead had. We had to start over from scratch. I thought it was somewhat odd the information wasn't shared in the same staff. Seems to me the "files, photos, documents, notes..." belong to the company, unless there was some other provision. And that that could be viewed as theft. Of course, if it's all still there, but protected by a password the former project manager is unable to supply........ Ed
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Sept 18, 2020 12:55:44 GMT -8
Ed, To clarify, I provided the files, photos, documents, and the notes were between myself and the previous project manager. Probably the later where it's still there and protected by password, but I don't know how information is managed there. The new person had none of the files, photos, documents, notes, discussion, etc. that the previous lead had. We had to start over from scratch. I thought it was somewhat odd the information wasn't shared in the same staff. Seems to me the "files, photos, documents, notes..." belong to the company, unless there was some other provision. And that that could be viewed as theft. Of course, if it's all still there, but protected by a password the former project manager is unable to supply........ Ed
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Post by marknycfan on Sept 18, 2020 14:33:17 GMT -8
Well the junior high school measuring contest is in full swing...
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rs11
Junior Member
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Post by rs11 on Sept 18, 2020 17:56:22 GMT -8
Well the junior high school measuring contest is in full swing... What the heck. Smh.
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