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Post by sd40dash2 on Jan 7, 2021 11:27:01 GMT -8
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jan 7, 2021 13:06:39 GMT -8
I did a Google search for "Bruce Gavins Mattel" since he told me he used to work there and it's where he learned about mold-making. This brings up some results with the quote "Bruce Gavins and wife left Tyco Mattel and started Bad Dog," Bad Dog being a former manufacturer of HO slot cars of some sort. Bad Dog -> Big Dawg seems like a reasonable progression. Seems like the name is legit. Definitely legit: patents.justia.com/inventor/bruce-e-gavins |
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 7, 2021 14:13:35 GMT -8
Artur (who is also on this forum, and who also built BDO the CN C44-9WL master from a Kato shell in the past, along with the highly controversial rebuilt VIA F40PH-2 shell master for BDO using a Rapido shell and a Shapeways creator's rear section) had been working on that BLI+Highliners E8 shell master for a number of years to send to BDO/PNW to cast, although judging by the "just finished" comment I'd say he decided to cast those resin shells you seen himself. Another note is that Scott Lupia of KV Models seems to be making masters for PNW now, so is in fact in kahootz with the shell pirating operation and not just selling complementary etchings without knowing how/what the resin shells were made from. It appears he made them the master for their new SW7, using a Walthers/LL Proto SW cab/frame/body with some Athearn SW7 hood components added. A shame, I would have liked to buy some of his KV etched stanchions, but can't support his endeavours now. ebay.com/itm/HO-SCALE-SW-7-Switcher-Engine-Shell-To-many-Road-names-to-mention-New-Release/284064263825 |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jan 8, 2021 6:24:43 GMT -8
You know -- and I don't in any way condone this practice of copyright violation -- I wonder how much this practice is actually hurting Rapido / Athearn / Atlas / Walthers? I'd be very surprised if it hurts them very much at all -- anyone building these locomotives still needs to buy a drive somewhere. And I'd wager that very few actually get built...
Who is getting hurt by this are the 3D print designers selling on Shapeways when their prints get incorporated into these counterfeits.
One way to counteract would be for a few 3D designers and resin casters to band together and design their own 3D-printed versions of these shells, and sell possibly cheaper, or at any rate better resin-cast copies. Beat the Big Dawg at his own game.
Alternatively, traditional manufacturers could license their shells for a percentage of revenue in exchange for the right to sell derivative designs -- but not unaltered copies.
Also, I believe in the freight car world the practice of altering existing shells and selling castings has been going on for decades already. I haven't heard of any manufacturers saying anything about this practice -- it's a whole different market that quite probably wouldn't otherwise buy the model the shell was based on anyway.
Just some thoughts! Again, I'm in no way condoning the practice; just spewing out some thoughts.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Jan 8, 2021 7:03:21 GMT -8
Colin, Are you not aware of Jason at Rapido's comments on the topic? How is it any different if it's a larger manufacturer or someone on Shapeways who's parts are being pirated and used in a BDO abomination? It's still stealing and used the exact same way. The best way to counteract it is to sue the shit out of all of those involved. Your comments minimize and enable those who say, it's okay because it's altering it just a little bit or it's okay because it's a manufacturer and the thief still has to use other parts. I don't think the freight car world has seen this issue for probably over 20 years. It seems everything released since then has been newly tooled. It seems by your comment you're completely okay with it by the way you're trying to justify it and reminds me of someone who says I'm not racist, but then spouts off a racist comment. You know -- and I don't in any way condone this practice of copyright violation -- I wonder how much this practice is actually hurting Rapido / Athearn / Atlas / Walthers? I'd be very surprised if it hurts them very much at all -- anyone building these locomotives still needs to buy a drive somewhere. And I'd wager that very few actually get built... Who is getting hurt by this are the 3D print designers selling on Shapeways when their prints get incorporated into these counterfeits. One way to counteract would be for a few 3D designers and resin casters to band together and design their own 3D-printed versions of these shells, and sell possibly cheaper, or at any rate better resin-cast copies. Beat the Big Dawg at his own game. Alternatively, traditional manufacturers could license their shells for a percentage of revenue in exchange for the right to sell derivative designs -- but not unaltered copies. Also, I believe in the freight car world the practice of altering existing shells and selling castings has been going on for decades already. I haven't heard of any manufacturers saying anything about this practice -- it's a whole different market that quite probably wouldn't otherwise buy the model the shell was based on anyway. Just some thoughts! Again, I'm in no way condoning the practice; just spewing out some thoughts. |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jan 8, 2021 7:51:19 GMT -8
Yes, I'm fully aware of Jason's comments and share his opinion that it's theft.
No, the best way is not to "sue the shit out of all those involved". The only people that make money off that are the lawyers. The best way is to give the end user's what they want. I can draw a parallel with the music recording and film industry. Look at the proliferation of streaming services in response to the downloading practice that was rife in the early 2000's. Nowadays not many people have the inclination to download when streaming is so easy.
I'm aware of at least one resin freight car kit made available just a few years ago based on another manufacturer's injection moulded product.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Jan 8, 2021 10:49:40 GMT -8
Who is the resin manufacturer so we are all aware of who is stealing?
Yep, lawyers would make money and the manufactures would also because they would no longer lose potential sales and could release requested versions of products if there is such a need. It still seems you support theft of intellectual property.
The music and film industry is huge compared to the model railroad industry and the model railroad industry is much more technical/skill involved in pirating which means there are limited number of people who can pull off the steal ie make the shell, pour the mold, sell the product. Music and movie is pretty easy. Plus there are still a number of sites to download illegal copies of music and movies. The lawyers would shut down / minimize the open theft of model railroader related products - especially knowing if there is someone who cares about it and does something about it.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 8, 2021 16:35:36 GMT -8
One could make the argument it's hurting the higher-end manufacturers that invested all that money into tooling up multiple shell variations, extra details, etc more. For example, there's a high probability someone buying a cloned Rapido VIA F40PH-2 rebuild shell isn't going to put it on a Rapido chassis, they'll just buy an old Walthers Trainline F40PH at a train show and put it on that, and have their own economy VIA F40 rebuild. And how many of those "fits xxxx blue box chassis" shells are going on a new chassis/underframe off new models purchased from Athearn? Chances are, most are going on decades-old old-stock blue-box models already in circulation or floating around at train shows.
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Post by 12bridge on Jan 8, 2021 17:38:42 GMT -8
A bunch of Funaro's stuff is brass car knockoffs.
I wonder if any precedent has been set in the Model Car market and how this goes. That hobby is way bigger then trains, and has had a thriving resin industry for a long, long time, of which I bet 95% or more is all parts cast from other kits, or the like.
Not justifying it, but this sort of thing is not new, at all.
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Post by stottman on Mar 19, 2021 9:54:31 GMT -8
I semi-self publish books as a sideline hobby job; Both with physical copies sold on Amazon as well as electronic .pdfs, Kindle, etc.
From researching and talking with a copyright lawyer in the past, in order to successfully bring a copyright lawsuit, you have to prove what your financial losses were. Otherwise, the default judgement is something like $300. With attorney fees, that's a major loss.
With model trains, that would be pretty cut and dry if he was doing something like copying Railpower Products shells, Shape away products, etc. But using pieces and parts for a kitbashed shell that is used as a master? That would be a pretty hard sell. Is Company X really missing out on GP40-2 sales when he is making a GP50 shell?
Not condoning the guy, it's pretty shady what he is doing. The low quality and awesome customer service don't do him any favors either.
And with modern "Print on demand" avenues like Shapeaway, Amazon KDP, etc, good luck getting them to do anything. They make money either way... I am sure their customer service based in Bombay will get right on that.
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