cklx
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Posts: 124
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Post by cklx on Dec 30, 2020 3:43:01 GMT -8
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Post by stevewagner on Dec 30, 2020 4:09:26 GMT -8
Cornelius, thanks very much for this posting.
I believe the German text says that the type modeled, the 62-DE-19A, had a lower cab height than the one from which it was developed, the 65-DE-14 . I'm not sure whether those designations came from Whitcomb's, the US Army Transportation Corps, or the Netherlands Railways. Did similar Whitcombs used in the USA have higher cabs?
Clearly the models are being offered decorated for both the Netherlands Railways and the US Army Transportation Corps. The CAD drawing on p. 171 of the catalog shows European-style couplers and buffers. Will models in both paint schemes have those?
P.S. (December 30, 2020, 7:37 a.m., EST). A quick Google search has shown me photos of similar full-sized locos in the USA including Lehigh & New England 602, one on the Mass. Water Resources Authority's Fore River Railroad, one on the Maryland Midland, and others, plus HO brass models and at least one resin printed model available on Shapeways.
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cklx
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Post by cklx on Dec 30, 2020 6:12:18 GMT -8
Steve, >>> I believe the German text says that the type modeled, the 62-DE-19A, had a lower cab height than the one from which it was developed, the 65-DE-14. I'm not sure whether those designations came from Whitcomb's, the US Army Transportation Corps, or the Netherlands Railways. Did similar Whitcombs used in the USA have higher cabs? Not sure. I've seen pictures of several Whitcons in the US (I've only seen one IRL), and they look the same as the US Army model. Maybe the Army sold some engines at home too. >>> Clearly the models are being offered decorated for both the Netherlands Railways and the US Army Transportation Corps. The CAD drawing on p. 171 of the catalog shows European-style couplers and buffers. Will models in both paint schemes have those? Suppose so, as these are common in Europe. But I guess they will remove these for the US market. >>> P.S. (December 30, 2020, 7:37 a.m., EST). A quick Google search has shown me photos of similar full-sized locos in the USA including Lehigh & New England 602, one on the Mass. Water Resources Authority's Fore River Railroad, one on the Maryland Midland, and others, plus HO brass models and at least one resin printed model available on Shapeways. This is the one I've seen at Prairie du Chien, WI:  Guessed: Whitcomb 65 tonner by Cornelius Koelewijn, on Flickr The one that is repainted in US Army colors, was bought at a cement plant in Iowa. Cornelius. |
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Post by mdvle on Dec 30, 2020 7:36:54 GMT -8
Cornelius, thanks very much for this posting. I believe the German text says that the type modeled, the 62-DE-19A, had a lower cab height than the one from which it was developed, the 65-DE-14 . I'm not sure whether those designations came from Whitcomb's, the US Army Transportation Corps, or the Netherlands Railways. Did similar Whitcombs used in the USA have higher cabs? Clearly the models are being offered decorated for both the Netherlands Railways and the US Army Transportation Corps. The CAD drawing on p. 171 of the catalog shows European-style couplers and buffers. Will models in both paint schemes have those? P.S. (December 30, 2020, 7:37 a.m., EST). A quick Google search has shown me photos of similar full-sized locos in the USA including Lehigh & New England 602, one on the Mass. Water Resources Authority's Fore River Railroad, one on the Maryland Midland, and others, plus HO brass models and at least one resin printed model available on Shapeways.
Google Translate doesn't help much regarding buffers vs a kadee style coupler, but even if it is only the European style coupler it should be an easier fix given the lack of not just Whitcomb models but lack of small switchers in the North American market currently.
Though the traction tires might put some people off.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 30, 2020 7:55:00 GMT -8
The Italian one doesn't match up well to the Army example. Cute, though. Ed |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Dec 30, 2020 8:17:10 GMT -8
Well, that is interesting. I may have to violate my "New Haven-only" rule for a 65-ton Whitcomb. I worked a temp. job on the railroad in the Quincy Shipyard back in 1999, home of the Fore River Railroad. And as Steve pointed out, the FRR had a pair of Whitcombs, #12 and #14 (they skipped #13) back in the day. A buddy of mine still works there. I hope Piko does a Bethlehem Steel paint job as it would make my life much easier to re-letter for FRR. www.mwra.com/03sewer/html/railroad.htmFor other pics of US 65-tonners: www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?mid=1006 |
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Post by Christian on Dec 30, 2020 8:31:00 GMT -8
The Second Diesel Spotter's Guide doesn't give production quantities but has some information. The postwar domestic 80 ton Whitcomb locomotive is the same design as the Army but with a taller cab and heavier trucks than the WWII units. Guide says "many" were brought back to the USA after the war and sold off. The 65-ton units Whitcomb built for domestic use after the war look quite different. At the time these were all built Whitcomb was a division of Baldwin. The guide is vague on the engines and mentions Cummins, Caterpillar, and Baldwin VO were used on wartime diesels.
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Post by Christian on Dec 30, 2020 8:35:08 GMT -8
The ones with the taller cabs in these photos were post-war construction and not the Army units. But most of the photos are of the Army units and there are a lot of them. |
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Post by lackawanna1223 on Dec 30, 2020 9:13:12 GMT -8
I believe the Lehigh & New England’s engine was purchased as war surplus.
I want to freelance a shortline in the ‘53-‘80 timeframe and keep hoping for a top shelf GE 44 tonner with DCC/sound but I would love a 65 ton Whitcomb if losing the buffers and adding KDs isn’t going to be major surgery. This is a VERY cool model.
Brian.
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Post by bdhicks on Dec 30, 2020 9:15:32 GMT -8
It looks like there's a mistake in the catalog, the Dutch locomotives are actually 65-DE-19A, not 62-. The copy also says 65-DE-14 for the US version, but the listing says 65-DE-19-A (although ultimately I don't think that matters much).
The bulk of the 65-tonner pictures I see on rrpicturearchives are for the low-cab version, with only a few high-cab units. I notice some of the low-cab units have slanted sides and others have vertical sides.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 30, 2020 9:29:06 GMT -8
I just looked through the rrpicturearchives list, and it looks to me like all the ones that look like ex-Army have the sloping sides on the hoods. The Italian model, referenced earlier, does not, nor on the ends.
Ed
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Post by bdhicks on Dec 30, 2020 11:35:49 GMT -8
I am a fan of little switchers and the Whitcomb with the low cab is a pretty eye-catching prototype, so I'm tempted even though I have no specific use for it.
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Post by tillamook on Dec 30, 2020 13:07:57 GMT -8
European models normally feature a standardized pocket for couplers to be plugged in, there are matching Kadees available (#17 through #20). The short coupling mechanism will have to be disabled though and buffers removed. In the text about the model they are not talking about the us market but about the possibility of using it on us themed layouts so your mileage may vary. Two other things to keep in mind: - the PluX22 is - unfortunately - not really embraced by american decoder vendors - the wheelsets will be NEM, not RP25, so the flanges will be taller. Piko also announced a Siemens Desiro as NCTD Sprinter: www.piko-shop.de/de/praesenz/search/l-18/o-artikelnr_asc/p-10/q-Neuheit+2021.html |
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Post by es80ac on Dec 30, 2020 17:26:47 GMT -8
European models normally feature a standardized pocket for couplers to be plugged in, there are matching Kadees available (#17 through #20). The short coupling mechanism will have to be disabled though and buffers removed. In the text about the model they are not talking about the us market but about the possibility of using it on us themed layouts so your mileage may vary. Two other things to keep in mind: - the PluX22 is - unfortunately - not really embraced by american decoder vendors - the wheelsets will be NEM, not RP25, so the flanges will be taller. Piko also announced a Siemens Desiro as NCTD Sprinter: www.piko-shop.de/de/praesenz/search/l-18/o-artikelnr_asc/p-10/q-Neuheit+2021.htmlPiko does not seem to get the picture that their deep flanges are not wanted. Count me out of this. |
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cklx
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Posts: 124
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Post by cklx on Dec 31, 2020 0:34:35 GMT -8
Arrival of the two Whitcomb 65-tonners in The Netherlands:
Cornelius
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Post by lackawanna1223 on Dec 31, 2020 1:14:49 GMT -8
I’m going to ask Piko America if there’s any chance they might offer this in a N American friendly version with RP25 wheelsets. I’m not hopeful, but I’d love to have one of these.
Brian
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Post by cera2254 on Dec 31, 2020 3:55:48 GMT -8
What’s the fascination of the European manufacturers with the taller flanges?
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Post by tillamook on Dec 31, 2020 4:29:24 GMT -8
What’s the fascination of the European manufacturers with the taller flanges? Mostly backwards compatibility and sticking to company standards. The flanges did get better in the last decades, but are still far from the NMRA.
Also, most track systems are optimized for the NEM flanges and will cause problems with RP25 wheels. Many frog are still designed for the wheels to ride on the flange, thus RP25 will sink in and/or climb on the frog point.
On the other hand, taken from a number of german forums, users seem to be scared by small flanges – because some tried them on their old track and then complained about the RP25 equipped stock constantly derailing, and others repeat this like a mantra. Plus, in most cases it is either or. You go full RP25 and put the old engines on display, or you just stick to what you always did.
And don't even get me started on 3-rail H0...
Edit: a small example from the family: I model PNW stuff, my father-in-law mostly Deutsche Bahn. At the moment, we're thinking about building modules that we could use together, including the terminus station that has been in our village until about 35 years ago. I'm still trying to convince him to use Tillig Elite track, which allowes for later NEM and RP25 flanges to be used, but he's still hesitant and I don't really know why...
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jan 2, 2021 15:45:00 GMT -8
Easy, he has seniority...
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Post by slowfreight on Jan 3, 2021 8:50:10 GMT -8
I have a few odd Euro pieces, and it's a wild card as to how hard rebuilding to RP25 compatibility would be. However, for that ACL unit I would think any manner of rebuilding on the mechanism would be more than offset by the kitbash that doesn't have to happen.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 3, 2021 9:06:21 GMT -8
Generally, if you can get the wheelsets out, you can reduce the flange depth using files and a lot of time. Generally.
I did that with my first AHM U25C.
Ed
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Post by lvrr325 on Jan 3, 2021 13:43:13 GMT -8
Of course the lazy way to do it would be to run some leads to the mechanism and let it turn it's own flanges down on a piece of sandpaper, or even a pair of files with the leads hooked to those.
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1to3
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Post by 1to3 on Feb 12, 2021 10:23:22 GMT -8
Latecomer, but also interested in this model. After contacting the folks at Piko America and my favorite hobby shop, this is what info I gathered... These will be available at any shop that sells Piko stuff... so you don't have to find a Euro only store. (It's already listed with German translated text on Trainworld's site. TW lists it as a 65-DE-19A while Piko America says its a Whitcomb 65T... likely for more U.S. appeal.) The model will have some variations, but it appears they are all tall-cab/hood versions. They do plan "North American" versions that they are eluding too. Basically saying "we have not announced everything that will be announced" later this year. The first model version, USATC, is more of an 'as seen in Europe' version so it sounds like it will have the buffers.  They have mentioned more models coming, so it is likely we see an ACL version since that seems like the most popular of roads that had one!? (They won't answer you when you ask, but some of the wording sounds like they might.) They did ask what roads I would like to see... so, that's good that they would consider more. Some other details they mentioned... - they will be using a Plux22 decoder that they make. They say it follows all NMRA standards - even though those are more of a Euro used decoder. - the wheelsets will be NEM, not RP25. (Apparently German's really dislike RP25 due to derailing issues?) My hobby shop mentioned that Piko says the wheelsets will work fine on code 100 and 83 rail. - they will have versions that are more North American that will have no buffers and a knuckle coupler. (Sounds unlikely they will have all handrail variations.) - they make their own knuckle coupler and it's similar to a Kadee #17... who knew!? - the marker lights (for lack of a better term) will be on all versions. I think only one road used them in the States, and not for long? |
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Post by Christian on Feb 12, 2021 10:46:30 GMT -8
- the wheelsets will be NEM, not RP25. (Apparently, German's really dislike RP25 due to derailing issues?) My hobby shop mentioned that Piko says the wheelsets will work fine on code 100 and 83 rail. They are going to get a lot of returns and warranty claims. I wonder how much demand there is for this locomotive in Germany versus demand in North America? |
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Post by tillamook on Feb 12, 2021 12:10:34 GMT -8
FWIW, PluX22 is defined in NMRA RP-9.1.1 since 2008 while the 21mtc decoder plug type that american manufacturers use lack proper standardization and its use is discouraged by the NMRA.
I would love the Americans to use PluX22 because they are easy to get here and there is no wondering if AUX 3 and 4 will work or not.
edit: Don’t worry about the decoder itself, it will be standard DCC.
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 12, 2021 12:24:09 GMT -8
Apparently German's really dislike RP25 due to derailing issues? R1 is around 14" radius, I'm assuming they need the flanges to help with that radius. Typically the pizza cutter flanges run just fine on Code 100, and maybe on Code 80, on Code 75 the flanges hit the spikes and you hear a zzzzzzz sound as the train goes down the track. |
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Post by lackawanna1223 on Feb 12, 2021 12:37:04 GMT -8
I wonder if replacement wheel sets (NWSL?) are a possibility?
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1to3
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Post by 1to3 on Feb 13, 2021 11:12:36 GMT -8
FWIW, PluX22 is defined in NMRA RP-9.1.1 since 2008 while the 21mtc decoder plug type that american manufacturers use lack proper standardization and its use is discouraged by the NMRA. I would love the Americans to use PluX22 because they are easy to get here and there is no wondering if AUX 3 and 4 will work or not. edit: Don’t worry about the decoder itself, it will be standard DCC. Interesting comment on the PluX22. Piko is using the "PIKO SmartDecoder 4.1 Sound" decoder on this model which they make themselves. (Not ESU, not Digitrax, etc.) Apparently when the NMRA tested it they remarked that it "fared better" than decoders from many brands that are better-known here. Their tests basically stated it passed with flying colors. Interested to try one and see what it can do, or to see what others think of it? |
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cklx
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Posts: 124
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Post by cklx on Jun 16, 2021 9:50:16 GMT -8
Guys, The Dutch version is in production: Cornelius. |
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Post by slowfreight on Jun 19, 2021 12:59:13 GMT -8
Apparently German's really dislike RP25 due to derailing issues? R1 is around 14" radius, I'm assuming they need the flanges to help with that radius. Typically the pizza cutter flanges run just fine on Code 100, and maybe on Code 80, on Code 75 the flanges hit the spikes and you hear a zzzzzzz sound as the train goes down the track. Some of us don't use anything as large as code 83. I have an entire branch line in code 70 and 55. Fortunately, the main industry on that branch already has its own Bachmann 45 tonner, which works fine on code 55. |
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