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Post by ironwill on Jan 30, 2021 6:37:29 GMT -8
The other day I went to use my P&LE MP15 to move some cars and noticed it wouldn't couple up to them. Lifted it off the layout to see the cause and found the coupler pad bent up enough that it indeed wouldn't be able to couple. I found this odd as it's never taken a tumble to cause the damage.
Put it on the work bench and as I started taking it apart the frame broke into several pieces. Once I had everything out I examined the frame and found it was literally coming apart everywhere, splitting and fragmenting into pieces.
This is a first for me, never encountered it before on any locomotive let alone an Atlas. Naturally there are no replacement frames available so I guess my options are to make a new one out of brass or steel.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2021 7:53:54 GMT -8
That's disappointing. Or worse, if you own such an item. Hearing about zinc pest in an Atlas product is new to me. Here's an introductory article on the subject: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest The P&LE model is from a run in 2009. Nominally. Also included in that run was MP and Family Lines. The extent of the problem beyond the one model is, of course, of great interest to owners of Atlas products (if they use die cast parts). Zinc pest is caused by using an inadequately pure alloy in casting. The related problem shows up "later". It's onset is aggravated by humidity and high temperatures (like in my old house in Northern Virginia (pre-AC). Building a brass frame is "good for the soul". Your soul will soon be healthier. There are cases where the warpage of the casting damages the attached shell, so you dodged that bullet. Ed |
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 30, 2021 9:20:43 GMT -8
People have brought up zinc pest with Atlas products on this forum in the past, specifically with Atlas ballast hoppers (that have a metal underframe casting a number of people reported to have disintegrated, broke or failed).
The best course of action is to contact Atlas and see if they have a spare frame, sometimes they keep a number of extra models on hand for warranty repair parts salvage. There's also a few eBay parts sellers that either buy parts from Atlas to sell, or part out complete models to sell the individual components from.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jan 30, 2021 9:24:12 GMT -8
Atlas literally just announced another run of these, give them a call, maybe they can send you a frame.
It ain't perfect, it might be 18 months to get it, but it's a choice. Plus you give them a heads up maybe they can run off a bunch of extra frames for other people who have the problem.
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Post by Funnelfan on Jan 30, 2021 18:55:02 GMT -8
I bought a old Rivarossi Cab Forward steam locomotive on the cheap because the metal frame parts had rotted. I needed it for parts.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2021 20:31:23 GMT -8
Stayin' with that Rivarossi theme:
When I was clearing out my parents' house, I found my old Rivarossi Dockside. When I bought it, it was the only Dockside (of HOW many?) that had full valve gear. A real sweety, though a speed contender with the Hustler.
Anyway. The cylinders had zinc pest. "Sorry, mam. We couldn't save him."
Sucks!
Ed
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Post by steveg on Jan 30, 2021 20:42:59 GMT -8
I lost 2 U33Cs and a ballast car from Atlas and a pair of GP38-2s from Proto to zinc rot, unfortunately it's still a problem. The 38's received Atlas drives and the U33Cs and the hopper got new parts from Atlas .
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2021 20:59:02 GMT -8
I know that Ulrich stuff got zinc pest. I'm the proud owner.
It's my impression that Varney, Hobbytown, Athearn, Model Die Casting did not. And Kadee, for that matter--all those couplers......?
I am concerned about BLI. I've got some of their steamers, and I don't yearn to build new frames.
Ed
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Post by lvrr325 on Jan 31, 2021 1:31:37 GMT -8
I think any brand can be subject to it depending on if contaminants got into the mix or how it was stored. I sold a Hobbytown E7 A-B set with the B a mint in the box kit and the buyer tells me the frame broke. The A was running.
Varney did a series of bright colored docksides about 1962 and I have yet to find one with an intact frame, it seems like that batch for whatever reason did not survive well. I have shells for three of them.
Maybe the strangest one I have seen is two 60s era Athearn engines where the motor magnets disintegrated. One Hi-F F7 and one SW7. I don't know how that even happens.
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Post by mdvle on Jan 31, 2021 5:11:43 GMT -8
The other day I went to use my P&LE MP15 to move some cars and noticed it wouldn't couple up to them. Lifted it off the layout to see the cause and found the coupler pad bent up enough that it indeed wouldn't be able to couple. I found this odd as it's never taken a tumble to cause the damage. Put it on the work bench and as I started taking it apart the frame broke into several pieces. Once I had everything out I examined the frame and found it was literally coming apart everywhere, splitting and fragmenting into pieces. This is a first for me, never encountered it before on any locomotive let alone an Atlas. Naturally there are no replacement frames available so I guess my options are to make a new one out of brass or steel. The good news (such as it is) is that the frame is your only issue. It is an issue that has happened with models from around the world - in the UK they call it mazak rot - and for UK modelers it usually becomes apparent when the frame has expanded and caused damage to the shell. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 31, 2021 9:29:27 GMT -8
I think any brand can be subject to it depending on if contaminants got into the mix or how it was stored. I think I would replace the word "got" with "allowed". Contaminants have no volition, unlike rodents. Whether that "allowing" was caused by ignorance, sloppiness, or cheapness might be tough to discern. Not to deny that this WAS a case of zinc pest, but that's not the only way to come up with a broken frame. I bought a Walthers E7 (curious coincidence), and when I opened it up to check out a rattling sound, found the frame badly damaged. Nope, not zinc pest. The apparently rushed assembly person just put the internal weight casting on top of the frame misaligned, and tightened all the screws right up. VERY BAD. And then put the shell on and boxed it up. VERY VERY BAD. Zinc pest, when it becomes bad enough to notice, will show radical distortion of the piece(s), and usually cracks. A white powder on the surfaces might also be present. {/quote] I will guess that the magnetic material was assembled by sintering before it was magnetized, and that the sintering failed. Ed |
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Post by mvlandsw on Jan 31, 2021 10:02:19 GMT -8
Kadee couplers are made from pure zinc, not zamak. They should not have the rot problem.
I have 50 year old Hobbytown units and have not seen any problem with them.
Mark
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Post by lvrr325 on Jan 31, 2021 16:19:00 GMT -8
The buyer never sent me pictures but the B unit either the frame or the trucks broke. I never took it out of the box. Unpowered B and only assembled as far as sitting the shell on the bare frame to fit in the box.
I even have somewhere a 50s era Mantua cast tender that is warped and cracked from pest issues. It's a fairly thick piece to do that.
Early 70s Kader are common for the pest and it will crack shells, both Bachmann GP40s and the FT-A initially imported by AHM I have seen with that issue.
I had some Austrian engine that suffered from it that way too. That thing was so badly designed I don't think it would have run right without the frame being bent almost like a banana. Thin gears on each truck with no support and nothing to keep the motor from moving so the worm didn't engage them. Small motors on each truck to run it.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 31, 2021 16:46:03 GMT -8
Isn't the rot problem due to impurities? The thing that sucks is you don't know until it strikes.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 31, 2021 17:32:19 GMT -8
Isn't the rot problem due to impurities? Yes, it is. Yeah. If there was a sticker on the front informing us that they used crap alloy and we should take our chances, that would be nice. Ed |
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Post by riogrande on Jan 31, 2021 17:35:47 GMT -8
Like putting a sticker on the box that "this is a foobie" model?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 31, 2021 18:29:49 GMT -8
Like putting a sticker on the box that "this is a foobie" model? No, it's not like putting a foobie sticker on, because there's a window on the side of the box which will reveal all you need to know to resolve that question. Ed |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2021 9:46:12 GMT -8
I believe I have read that all it takes is only a couple tenths of one percent of lead impurity in the diecast metal to cause zincpest.
It can happen to anybody's product. I've seen Oriental Limited Powerhouse Series (built by Samhongsa during the mid-1980's) diecast USRA 2-8-8-2 boilers on Ebay, on otherwise mint engines, that clearly evidence signs of zinc pest, while other units of the exact same item appear to be just fine. You can sometimes see it bubbling the paint and causing tiny cracks. When they were new the paint finish was quite good and smooth.
If you search far enough online you will see it has happened to everybody's trains. Some of a given run will be just fine, and some others, not.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 1, 2021 10:48:18 GMT -8
I believe I have read that all it takes is only a couple tenths of one percent of lead impurity in the diecast metal to cause zincpest. It can happen to anybody's product. I've seen Oriental Limited Powerhouse Series (built by Samhongsa during the mid-1980's) diecast USRA 2-8-8-2 boilers on Ebay, on otherwise mint engines, that clearly evidence signs of zinc pest, while other units of the exact same item appear to be just fine. You can sometimes see it bubbling the paint and causing tiny cracks. When they were new the paint finish was quite good and smooth. If you search far enough online you will see it has happened to everybody's trains. Some of a given run will be just fine, and some others, not. Here's the Wikipedia page on Zamak: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZamakScrolling down to Zamak 3, we see the words "...de facto standard..long term dimensional stability." And there is a list of impurities, and their acceptable range. The words "dimensional stability" look like they were written with zinc pest in mind. "Long term" is an interesting choice of words. HOW long? Couldn't find out. I would think it would be for the life of the product, during normal usage. Anyway, Zamak was created as a solution to the zinc pest problem, and thus using REAL Zamak should eliminate it. I believe. Thus, I assume when zinc pest shows up in our products, it is due to ignorance or willfulness on the part of the manufacturer. I'm not sure it DOES happen to "anybody's product", as if it was just bad luck. I think it happens to people's products who have too much contamination in the alloy. And that's not "luck" (see "ignorance" and "willfulness", above.) Ed |
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 1, 2021 16:35:09 GMT -8
It seems like engines stored in poor conditions are more prone to it than those stored in normal, relatively consistent levels of heat and humidity. Or perhaps it's just that say extreme temperature changes speed it up; cold tends to shrink things and heat expands, if the impurities change more than the other material that would cause problems.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 1, 2021 17:38:54 GMT -8
It seems like engines stored in poor conditions are more prone to it than those stored in normal, relatively consistent levels of heat and humidity. Or perhaps it's just that say extreme temperature changes speed it up; cold tends to shrink things and heat expands, if the impurities change more than the other material that would cause problems. Humidity is the big problem, and it gets even bigger the warmer the temperature. I found a nice research paper online that discussed the problem: core.ac.uk/download/pdf/53034354.pdfBut note that the problem happens only if the alloy is contaminated. It doesn't happen to "clean" alloys. Ed |
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