Classification lights on diesels

[edwardsutorik]

Rather than making what I think is an obviously correct assumption, I thought I'd ask. Just to be sure:


"Back in the day", many diesels had classification lights on each end. Of course, the ones that are critical are the ones facing the direction of travel.

But.

Were the ones on the OTHER end also lit?



I ask, because lately some of my models are showing with working class lights. And they are illuminated at both ends of the locomotive. Class lights to the rear?

Hard to believe. But maybe.........




Ed

[sd40dash2]

Directional lead unit only, with the obvious exception being when a unit was on the rear and displayed red markers.

[edwardsutorik]

Thank you.

Which leads me to the idea of disconnecting (if possible) the rear class lights on various of my road engines. I don't recall "my" railroad ever using pushers in the diesel class-light era, so the need for "red to the rear" is approaching zero. It would mean I "couldn't" run long-nose first, but that really didn't seem to happen much.

It would be swell to have the rear class lights on their own function. But barring that, I do suspect turning them off is a good choice.

I will say that I do enjoy the lit class lights and lit number boards, and appreciate their being there.



Ed

[sd40dash2]

There were many instances of a unit being run long hood forward such as on local return trips or switching, so the rear headlight and class lights would be needed in such situations.

But ultimately remember that nobody really cares about what other people do on their layouts. So it comes down to what works best for you.

[gevohogger]

Mar 31, 2021 12:56:10 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

I ask, because lately some of my models are showing with working class lights. And they are illuminated at both ends of the locomotive. Class lights to the rear?

I am surprised your decoder or your throttle isn't set up to let you turn them on and off separately.  As has been said, should be illuminated to the front only.

Real locomotives have a panel of switches on back wall of the cab, to turn on front or rear class lights and numberboards separately.  Plus a selector switch for the headlights which lets it function as controlling unit, or as a controlled unit, and from which end (long hood or short) it is controlled from, so engineer can turn on headlight of rear unit in case of a reverse move.  Or to set up as middle unit.

I doubt model railroad DCC allows this many different settings.

Unit on the rear of the train (as manned helper or DPU) would use headlight on Dim to serve as visible marker.

[Deleted]

I think functioning classification lights in HO are neat; it is THE reason I've purchased a few dcc/sound equipped engines...of course sometimes you get the functioning lights without the dcc and sound, depending upon the engine...and some of my engines that have the dcc/sound actually do not have classification lights based upon being AFTER that era, so I can't always win.

I also was not really aware, but during the caboose era, SP standard operating practice was that the rear facing roof-mounted lights on their cabooses displayed red when the train was moving forward.  Sometimes it was even two red lights, and Athearn has modeled this on their Genesis cabooses, even with the reversing direction.

I have absolutely no need for cabeese anymore, and I do not model SP, but I have one Genesis SP baywindow that will probably stick around just because it's too cool...it can be a run through, lol.

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

According to some railroad rule books a train, one car or a hundred only exists if it has markers or proper flags at each end. Red to the rear is the necessary to be sure another train knows what just passed was indeed a full train. Before radios markers were crucial to safe operations.

[fr8kar]

Apr 14, 2021 6:36:08 GMT -8 kentuckysouthernrwy said:

According to some railroad rule books a train, one car or a hundred only exists if it has markers or proper flags at each end. Red to the rear is the necessary to be sure another train knows what just passed was indeed a full train. Before radios markers were crucial to safe operations.

Still are. When we pass another train the conversation always includes something referring to the marker (Fred's flashing, marker's hanging, porch light's burning, etc.).

[fr8kar]

Mar 31, 2021 12:56:10 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Rather than making what I think is an obviously correct assumption, I thought I'd ask. Just to be sure:


"Back in the day", many diesels had classification lights on each end. Of course, the ones that are critical are the ones facing the direction of travel.

But.

Were the ones on the OTHER end also lit?



I ask, because lately some of my models are showing with working class lights. And they are illuminated at both ends of the locomotive. Class lights to the rear?

Hard to believe. But maybe.........




Ed

The rare cases I've run across locomotives still equipped with class lights there is a switch for the front and rear. Same with number lights on older hood units. I don't recall if the class light color could be changed independently between front and rear. I just set them to green because it looks cool.

A couple ex-SP SD39s ended up at the intermodal facility next to our yard. They are operated by the contract switch crews so I've never been in the seat on them. Somebody figured out the class lights still function and they keep them on green, front and rear, pretty much all the time. Been that way for months now.

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

Apr 14, 2021 11:06:50 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

Mar 31, 2021 12:56:10 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Rather than making what I think is an obviously correct assumption, I thought I'd ask. Just to be sure:

Ed

A couple ex-SP SD39s ended up at the intermodal facility next to our yard
Somebody figured out the class lights still function and they keep them on green, front and rear, pretty much all the time. Been that way for months now.

Doing their part to support the environment symbolically as they spew diesel fumes around...

[edwardsutorik]

Apr 14, 2021 11:06:50 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

The rare cases I've run across locomotives still equipped with class lights there is a switch for the front and rear. Same with number lights on older hood units. I don't recall if the class light color could be changed independently between front and rear. I just set them to green because it looks cool.

Thanks! I suppose if I decide to disconnect the rear class lights, I should do the same for the number lights. But then, might as well do the same for the rear headlight.

Or. If you want all those lights working prototypically:

You need 4 functions for dimmable front and rear headlights
And two for the class lights
And two for the number board lights
And one (at least) for the roof beacon or ditch lights.
Maybe one for the various "little" lights.

Hey. I need MORE BUTTONS!!!. And maybe more function outputs. Since all the above noted lights are set-and-forget EXCEPT the headlights, those could maybe go on a function-only decoder add-on. Or TWO?

A couple ex-SP SD39s ended up at the intermodal facility next to our yard. They are operated by the contract switch crews so I've never been in the seat on them. Somebody figured out the class lights still function and they keep them on green, front and rear, pretty much all the time. Been that way for months now.

I have the impression that most class lights have changeable color filters (Century's being one exception). For Christmas you could have a red and a green on each end!


Ed

[gevohogger]

Apr 14, 2021 12:05:42 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Apr 14, 2021 11:06:50 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

The rare cases I've run across locomotives still equipped with class lights there is a switch for the front and rear. Same with number lights on older hood units. I don't recall if the class light color could be changed independently between front and rear. I just set them to green because it looks cool.

Thanks! I suppose if I decide to disconnect the rear class lights, I should do the same for the number lights. But then, might as well do the same for the rear headlight.

I'm not sure I'd want to disconnect them; you might have to run long-hood-forward occasionally, for example, a single-unit consist on a local that runs out and back but can't turn the locomotive enroute. ("Front" in this thread obviously meaning the forward end of the locomotive even if it isn't necessarily the actual "front" of the locomotive)

[edwardsutorik]

Apr 14, 2021 16:26:45 GMT -8 gevohogger said:

Apr 14, 2021 12:05:42 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Thanks! I suppose if I decide to disconnect the rear class lights, I should do the same for the number lights. But then, might as well do the same for the rear headlight.

I'm not sure I'd want to disconnect them; you might have to run long-hood-forward occasionally...

I'm interested in disconnecting them on what I'll call modern mainline freight diesels (SD40-2,....) because they (the rears) would not normally be lit. The lead loco, only, needs class lights on the front.

In ALL the photos I've got of "my" railroad in the era I'm talking about, I've never seen a mainline freight running with the lead engine backwards. So I think I'd rather have the class lights lit correctly 99.9% of the time, rather than hardly ever.

However. When we start talking about local switchers, I certainly do agree with you there. And I am rather inclined to add a function only decoder to handle switching both sets of class lights. On t'other hand, I kind of suspect the crew, if they were needing white class lights and running back and forth and such, would likely turn all the class lights to white, and leave it alone.


Ed

[fr8kar]

I think the only models I have with functional class lights are from ScaleTrains and all of those have the Loksound or Lokpilot decoders. I like the way they run out of the box, but I'm not a fan of the lighting controls. I don't have the Lokprogrammer so I'm unable to modify much unless I edit individual CVs.

[edwardsutorik]

Loksound 5 and Tsunami 2 appear to have 4 lighting outputs. If two of those are for headlights, then there's two left over--one each for the class lights? Then nothing.....

TCS WOW looks like it has 6 lighting outputs. Perhaps doable, but nobody seems to be using TCS much. TCS also makes a nice 4 function only decoder.

ESU makes a teeny function-only decoder that has six outputs. It will accept their Power Pack. So you (and I) could conceivably have 10 lighting outputs, and full "keep alive". If it will fit.

Soundtraxx doesn't appear to have function-only decoders. I assume one could use the TCS or the ESU function-only with those.



Ed

[fr8kar]

My top priority is to have independent control of the lights, just as I do on the prototype. I hate directional lighting. I can't stand it. I'd rather have those models so equipped consigned to trail-only status than deal with directional lighting. Unfortunately that's how all the ScaleTrains models come and I don't know how to fix it.

The next priority is manual notching. Again, I just can't stand the way notching is synchronized with speed down the rail on our models. There's no control system or algorithm I've seen that replicates what I want better than manual notching.

Third priority would be accessory lights. I like class lights and would love to have them on all applicable models, but not at the expense of independent headlight control and manual notching on sound-equipped models.

Of course all that is theoretical since my ability to edit the Loksound and Lokpilot decoders is limited to tweaking individual CVs. I am able to accomplish the lighting functions I want on my non-sound NCE decoders just by manipulating 5 CVs. I haven't figured out the same thing for the handful of TCS non-sound decoders I have.

I forgot to mention: I hate the fact that the numberboard lights are tied to the sound startup function on ScaleTrains locomotives. And worse they are directional. Dude, nobody ever flips the numberboard light switch while switching. Not once, not ever. You're going to run LHF? OK, sure, but then it stays that way.

IMNSHO numberboard lights should be a toggle switch (or a toggle CV) just as they are on the prototype. Maybe they could cycle through FRONT/REAR/BOTH/OFF with the press of a single button. But tied to direction? No. Tied to sound? Hard no.

[edwardsutorik]

Apr 15, 2021 8:18:30 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

My top priority is to have independent control of the lights, just as I do on the prototype. I hate directional lighting. I can't stand it. I'd rather have those models so equipped consigned to trail-only status than deal with directional lighting. Unfortunately that's how all the ScaleTrains models come and I don't know how to fix it.

Here's what I did: I wired one headlight set to TWO decoder outputs. And the other set to TWO other outputs. This uses up all of the typical four that you get.

I set up one function button that outputs full lighting to Front.
I set up one function button that outputs dim lighting to Front.
I set up one function button that outputs full lighting to Rear.
I set up one function button that outputs dim lighting to Rear.

When I want a headlight on at the front, I turn on the dim Front button. The full Front button will then toggle back and forth from full to dim, at your pleasure. If you want that light back off, you turn both functions off. Same for the other end.

If I want more of the fancy lighting, I do believe I'll add that function only decoder. With 6 outputs, I can have two for class lights, one or two for numberboards, one for rotary beacon, etc.

When/if I actually do the latter half of this, I will probably select for the function-only decoder a "road number" from an unused section of my roster. I will ONLY use that road number when I am prepping the loco for a run. During actual operation, I will not be using it--file and forget. This means I can save the 10 primary function buttons for other things, like my headlight setup. Or manual notching.

Speaking of pretty cool sound effects, the QSI decoders I have in my UP E7's have switchable radiator fan sounds. I s'pose it might be nice to have an automatic option, but it's still fun to turn those fans on "as necessary".


Ed

[cemr5396]

don't most decoders these days have a headlight dimmer? I know on my Tsnuami2 engines you turn the headlight on with the usual button but you can press another button to dim it without needing to wire it to two function outputs.

Speaking of TSU2s, they are making them in 8-function versions now. Lights for days!

[fr8kar]

Apr 16, 2021 10:49:46 GMT -8 cemr5396 said:

don't most decoders these days have a headlight dimmer? I know on my Tsnuami2 engines you turn the headlight on with the usual button but you can press another button to dim it without needing to wire it to two function outputs.

Speaking of TSU2s, they are making them in 8-function versions now. Lights for days!

The NCE DA-SR and D13J 4-function decoders I've been using for years have that function. I have the front headlight on bright mapped to F0, front headlight dim to F4, rear headlight bright to F1 and rear headlight dim to F8. It's a little clunky because I don't know what I'm doing. It also interferes with other functions on sound-equipped decoders, so I can't standardize on those functions, but it's what I used before I had any sound-equipped models. I'm also able to have accessory lights, such as beacons and strobes using the same decoder.

[edwardsutorik]

Yeah, I just found out about "F7". At least in Tsunami, it does dim.

But we still need an individual on-off switch for each end. With auto-reversing turned off, of course.

I suspect (for Tsunami, anyway) that you can do the on-off with two "F"s, and the dimming with F7--it will just dim whichever is on. Which saves you a buttom over my clunky, but workable, way. Of course, you won't be able to have one end bright and the other end dim with this latest version, but I can't envision ever needing that.

I do think that my version is as close to prototype as you're going to get.


For this lighting thing, I can break my loco fleet down into three types:

switcher--for these, I am thinking of having both lights tied together from one button--a simple on-off. And probably just setting the lights to dim, only. So the two options are: lights off, both lights on, dim. Seems like that would cover most yard operations.

road power--as I've mentioned, I never see these running wrong end first. So I can shut down the rear light, and have the front light only. There'll be an on-off switch, and may that F7 for dimming: three options--off, on full, dim.

road switchers--here's the one that potentially needs everything. But notice that it's just a small subset of ALL the locos. Anyway, these are the ones that get two on-off, one for each end. And I guess F7, if it's available. Or maybe my "old" way.


Ed

[edwardsutorik]

Reading Ryans post above mine, it looks like we did exactly the same thing, right down to using the same decoder. Only difference is I chose different buttons.


He didn't specifically say it, but be reminded that you need to connect the hot of each bulb set (front or rear) to TWO decoder outputs. Nothing bad will happen if you turn both outputs on at once. You will simply get the higher of the two. Thus you can go from bright to dim and back with only one push of a button, each time.

Ed

[fr8kar]

That's not what I'm doing, though. Here's a photo of the insides of one of my builds. They're all wired this way, but I have not wired the beacon to one of the accessory outputs yet. The beacon LED is not even installed, only the front and rear lights.




What I've done is hook up red wires from both LEDs on the front to the common side output on the front, then hook up both black wires from the front LEDs to the other front output. I did the same for the rear headlights. F0 to toggle front on/off, F4 to toggle dim/bright on the front, F1 to toggle rear on/off, and F8 to toggle dim/bright on the rear.

The CV values to make this happen are:

CV 33 = 1
CV 34 = 1
CV 35 = 2
CV120 = 32
CV121 = 36

I wish I could remember who told me this on Andy Harman's D-List so many years ago, but whoever you were thanks a bunch!

[gevohogger]

I'm hoping someone can scan and post the photo that appeared in Trains Magazine back in the 70s, of a UP train on the LA&SL mainline led by a Centennial locomotive running long hood forward. Certainly not a normal situation; the caption speculated that maybe the train had loaned its original lead unit to some other underpowered train earlier.

And no, I don't remember if the class lights were illuminated....

[edwardsutorik]

Ryan,

Thanks for showing us what you did/do. Well, I see it as the same but different than mine. The same, in that the throttle buttons are used exactly* in the same way. Better though, as my method uses up two additional decoder outputs that could be used for other purposes.

I'll try to figure out how to use it. Which means figuring out various CV's. MIGHT be fun.

I see by looking up the CV's you list, that the first three are for mapping functions to outputs. That must be where "the plan" combines the two function buttons into one output pad. Very neat!

The other two are manufacturer specific, I see. However, it seems to me that the first three are the significant ones, and they appear in all decoders. So it does seem to me that "any" decoder should be able to do this clever trick.



Ed


*Thinking on that, I'm not so sure about "exact". Very similar, maybe.


Ryan. A question: When you have turned on the front headlight with F0, and you have toggled to bright with F4, can you then immediately turn the front headlight off by pushing F0?

[edwardsutorik]

Apr 16, 2021 13:07:11 GMT -8 gevohogger said:

I'm hoping someone can scan and post the photo that appeared in Trains Magazine back in the 70s, of a UP train on the LA&SL mainline led by a Centennial locomotive running long hood forward. Certainly not a normal situation; the caption speculated that maybe the train had loaned its original lead unit to some other underpowered train earlier.

And no, I don't remember if the class lights were illuminated....

One thing for sure: it won't be too difficult to find room for any extra decoders that might be desired. Or "keep alives".

Of some interest: While the Centennials had class lights on the rear, the DD35A's did not.


Ed

[fr8kar]

Apr 16, 2021 13:52:13 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Ryan. A question: When you have turned on the front headlight with F0, and you have toggled to bright with F4, can you then immediately turn the front headlight off by pushing F0?

Yes, that's exactly how it works. And whatever the last value was (bright/dim) is what it comes back to when you turn the headlight on again. My preference for headlights would be to cycle off/dim/bright/dim/off by pressing the same button repeatedly, but I have no idea how to accomplish that or if it's even possible.

For this lighting thing, I can break my loco fleet down into three types:

switcher--for these, I am thinking of having both lights tied together from one button--a simple on-off. And probably just setting the lights to dim, only. So the two options are: lights off, both lights on, dim. Seems like that would cover most yard operations.

road power--as I've mentioned, I never see these running wrong end first. So I can shut down the rear light, and have the front light only. There'll be an on-off switch, and may that F7 for dimming: three options--off, on full, dim.

road switchers--here's the one that potentially needs everything. But notice that it's just a small subset of ALL the locos. Anyway, these are the ones that get two on-off, one for each end. And I guess F7, if it's available. Or maybe my "old" way.

The way I configure my locomotives is to have all of them equipped with front and rear bright and dim. The reason is so that I can run a light consist and display a dim headlight as a marker on the trailing unit, which may be facing either direction. I can also change directions and go over a crossing (headlight on bright). It takes all four outputs on these decoders to run front and rear headlights and front and rear gyralights on Southern Pacific and Cotton Belt diesels. For my UP, Katy, BN and Santa Fe diesels equipped with beacons and strobes I only have to use one of the function outputs. I usually map that to F5. I'm not modeling the ditchlight era, so I don't have to fool around with the various lighting functions that appeared with ditchlights, but I think it's possible to light one end of the locomotive with ditchlights using these DA-SR and D13J decoders.

One thing I do not do is illuminate the red lamp on my Southern Pacific and Cotton Belt diesels since that was only used when the train was in emergency. I cannot ever foresee running an undesired emergency scenario on a layout. Some things are better left to the prototype world.

[wsor]

On my Scaletrains MILW SD40-2s, I have moved a few functions around to get things how I want. I do have a Lokprogrammer.

F0 - Front headlight, with Rule 17 dimming, so that stopped or reverse movement the light is dim.

F1 - Bell (factory)

F2 - Horn (factory)

F3 - Rear headlight, with Rule 17 dimming

F4 - Dynamic brake and low idle

F5 - Class lights (factory) Not sure if there is a way to separate front and rear.

F6 - Number Boards

F7 - Beacon (factory)

F8 - Sound on-off. I moved the number boards off this function.

On my fleet of engines, I have made F3 work the rear headlight, to avoid having lights on where they shouldn't be. I have no use for the coupler clank sound that is usually assigned.

[fr8kar]

Apr 26, 2021 23:58:10 GMT -8 wsor said:

On my Scaletrains MILW SD40-2s, I have moved a few functions around to get things how I want. I do have a Lokprogrammer.

F0 - Front headlight, with Rule 17 dimming, so that stopped or reverse movement the light is dim.

F1 - Bell (factory)

F2 - Horn (factory)

F3 - Rear headlight, with Rule 17 dimming

F4 - Dynamic brake and low idle

F5 - Class lights (factory) Not sure if there is a way to separate front and rear.

F6 - Number Boards

F7 - Beacon (factory)

F8 - Sound on-off. I moved the number boards off this function.

On my fleet of engines, I have made F3 work the rear headlight, to avoid having lights on where they shouldn't be. I have no use for the coupler clank sound that is usually assigned.

How did you reassign the numberboard lights?

That's a good idea using F3 for the rear light. Like you I have no interest in that coupler sound.

[Gino Damen]

Apr 16, 2021 15:58:28 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

Apr 16, 2021 13:52:13 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

 My preference for headlights would be to cycle off/dim/bright/dim/off by pressing the same button repeatedly, but I have no idea how to accomplish that or if it's even possible.

Hi, it can be done. The following video shows how:


I have self recreated this as a separate item so I can import it in any existing soundfile

This video only changes the way the headlights work.


You do need the Lokprogrammer and the appropriate sound file. But when you have a couple of ESU decoders the Programmer makes live a lot easier.

Best regards,

Gino
The Netherlands

[wsor]

How did you reassign the numberboard lights?

Fairly easy in Lokprogrammer. Should be able to do it in JMRI as well.

On the F8 line, turned them off. Sound will still work.

Added the number board function to the F6 line.