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Post by lars on May 28, 2021 14:46:19 GMT -8
I have a couple projects I would like to start painting soon. Essentially I’m starting out again from square one. The last time I used an airbrush much was as a teenager 20 years ago and I’m sure my habits weren’t too good then. I really don’t have much on hand for paint except some crusty Poly Scale. I’l probably use may older Badger airbrush for now and upgrade as I do some more research. I’m also looking to put something together that I can run off my shop air instead of using a small compressor.
On the paint side, can someone give me some pointers for starting over? I think I should start with some simpler products and work my up. This probably isn’t the time for complicated mixes of products or really refined techniques.
What’s a good starting point in terms of product? For those that use them, what do you suggest in terms of priming, thinning and application techniques? What might be a good “next step” I could move up to once I get back on my feet again?
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Post by riogrande on May 28, 2021 15:43:43 GMT -8
I'll be interested in following this too. It's been over 20 years since I've used an air brush. I have a box full of old Poly Scale and a few Floquil and other paints; not sure if any can be mixed and reused or not. I have a Paasche H and VL airbrushes and a Harbor Freight pancake compressor. I am hoping to set up a vented paint booth if I ever get the chance.
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Post by Christian on May 29, 2021 5:54:01 GMT -8
These are only acrylic suggestions. Normal room ventilation and a dust mask will work. I use an open window and a very small fan to keep the air moving.
Badger ModelFlex paints are the only remaining acrylic line with railroad names on the labels. They are ready to spray out of the bottle. BUT they are not stable. Once opened and exposed to air you will be lucky to get a few months of use before the paint becomes putty. Sometimes just weeks. Don't use them.
On the other hand, Badger Stynylrez primers are pretty much the go to primers for military modelers. Lots of colors, but I mostly use white. It's a bit pricey to my mind. It is an acrylic paint with urethane resin. It handles differently from most other paints so take a look at youtube videos.
The best easy to use paints for spraying are from Vallejo. Vallejo Air paints are ready to drip into your airbrush and spray. There are hundreds of colors. Vallejo Model Color paints are brush ready, but need to be thinned for airbrush. I use Golden or Liquitex Airbrush Medium for thinning.
I'm transitioning to AK Interactive 3rd Gen paints. These are acrylics with urethane resin. They are not ready to spray and will need thinning. I use Golden or Liquitex Airbrush Medium for thinning. Again, hundreds of colors.
I also recommend Mission Models paints. Mission actually has one model railroad color: Rail Tie Brown. Mission makes a urethane resin additive which works very well. I have just started using some of this brand.
Tamiya makes a great line of acrylics, but I'm not experienced enough with these paints to recommend.
To clean up I use Vallejo Airbrush Cleaner. It does a super job with any acrylic paints.
There are lots of youtube videos on any of these paints. Military subjects, but very useful. There are also color matching charts on the internet for translating many of these military colors to model railroad uses.
My main supplier is Competition Minis. Low prices and fast service. Michigan Toy Soldier is also a great source for military paints. Toy Soldier stocks many more brands of paint than Competition Minis. Toy Soldier stocks VMS Vantage CA cements and much of their paint line. Interesting stuff from VMS.
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Post by lars on May 30, 2021 9:53:53 GMT -8
Thanks Christian. Interesting about the Model Flex as I have some that must be at least 10 years old that still is good. I wonder if they changed for formula at some point in time.
I guess Scalecoat is effectively, dead, too?
I don’t think I’ve ever really “shopped” for paint before. I probably just used what the hobby shop had. What are you looking for in terms of criteria when picking or switching brands? I know some of it is preference and what you learn from use, but I didn’t know if you had preferences in formulations.
Beyond the acrylic suggestions, what are some of the other options out there, and can anyone summarize some of their experiences in use and the amount of skill to use them?
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Post by nsc39d8 on May 30, 2021 11:01:47 GMT -8
So I have been in this situation since Floquil has disappeared. Since I have used Tru-Color, Scalecoat, Model Master and Tamiya paints. While I have Badger airbrushes I have not used the paint in years of the airbrushes. I came to find that the lacquer paints affected the o-rings in my Badger Airbrushes or the items I used to clean them did.
I used Tru-color back when it was Accupaint. I have used it off and on for several years and found it to be close to using Floquil. I think Tru-color changed their formula and it is becoming less stable after being opened and even some do not seem completely full. But I find the paint very reliable for coverage and ease of use. I have always used acetone to thin it and to clean up afterwards. I have had problems with the newer crushable paint but have come to find it very reliable as well, just thinner coats to obtain a level surface.
I find Scalecoat paints to be very nice and most have enough gloss to decal over without and additional gloss coat of paint. The biggest problem I have with Scalecoat is that the bottle does not accept airbrush attachments and you must pour it into an airbrush bottle or cup feed. Otherwise it is a very nice paint.
On Modelmaster I have used the enamel and acrylic and find both very nice. The water clean up is a lot easier than anything else. I like acrylics and this is one of the best out there now. I do hate to see it bite the dust.
Tamiya paints are good and easy to work with as well. It only mixes well with their branded thinner. I used Tamiya for years on military models when I was younger and only brushed it on.
While I have heard only good reviews for the other paints mentioned above I have not used them.
Air brush wise I am an oddball. My dad picked up a Binks Wren air brush at on auction one day and I have used it every since and even purchased two more. I use the A and B type. There are no o-rings in
the areas that contact paint so cleaning is not a problem. If it gets to thick in the needle and /or tip I remove it from the brush and soak it in a solvent.
Hope this helps.
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Post by drsvelte on May 30, 2021 13:22:21 GMT -8
I dealt with this issue after returning to the hobby after a 25 year hiatus. Back in the day, I used Scalecoat I (brass), Scalecoat II (plastic), and Floquil (for both). All three of these paints were enamels.
When I returned to the hobby in 2016, I found that Floquil (as well as its acrylic Pollyscale line) had been acquired by Testors’ and had eventually been discontinued. Testor’s itself was then acquired by Rust-Oleum, and in 2020 the Testor’s Model Master paint lines were discontinued.
I primarily use Scalecoat II. It is now produced by Minuteman Scale Models (https://www.minutemanscalemodels.com/). Scalecoat has a large number of railroad-specific colors that are sometimes difficult to match from the military-model paints. Its a solvent-based paint, so proper ventilation is critical; respirator masks too (although we all should know how to wear masks now!).
I am now starting to learn to paint with acrylics, primarily for weathering. I also use some Tamiya "rattle can" paints. The "Fine Surface Primers" go on very nicely and in my opinion their gloss and flat clears are better than Glosscote and Dullcote
I use a single action Badger 200NH and a Badger double-action 155.
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Post by fr8kar on May 31, 2021 5:15:28 GMT -8
I guess Scalecoat is effectively, dead, too? No. Alive and well. And you can get it shipped to an address in Texas now. Before Minuteman acquired the line you had to get it from out of state and bring it in your car or try to find it at one of the dwindling number of hobby shops that might stock it. Those obstacles kept me from using it for a few years. I also use some Tamiya "rattle can" paints. The "Fine Surface Primers" go on very nicely and in my opinion their gloss and flat clears are better than Glosscote and Dullcote I completely agree about the primers and the clears. I use way more flat than gloss and it gets expensive using the Tamiya cans, so most often I use Krylon 1311 matte clear instead. I haven't bothered looking for a substitute for the gloss. The product can come out of the can quickly with both the Tamiya and Krylon clears so I keep an old hair dryer nearby to help flash off the solvents after I spray it. I'm not trying to dry the model, just replace the solvent-saturated air surrounding it with warm, dry air. This step isn't required once we get out of the rainy/humid season and into the hot, dry summer. |
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Post by Christian on May 31, 2021 8:24:59 GMT -8
When I returned to the hobby in 2016, I found that Floquil (as well as its acrylic Pollyscale line) had been acquired by Testors’ and had eventually been discontinued. Testor’s itself was then acquired by Rust-Oleum, and in 2020 the Testor’s Model Master paint lines were discontinued. RPM bought Floquil in the early 1970s and soon after moved the production to Canada. RPM bought Testors in 1984 and moved Floquil production back to the USA. At the time RPM bought the brand Floquil had been manufacturing model paint for about twenty years. RPM continued the Floquil brand for another forty years. At the time the Floquil brand was discontinued sales of Floquil and Polly Scale combined had dropped below fifty gallons a year. Railroad modeling is a really tiny hobby. It's not that the hobby of model railroading is dying, it's the hobby of building models of railroad subjects that is dying. Sources, Richard Melillo of Floquil and Mike Butterworth of Testors |
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Post by drsvelte on May 31, 2021 8:43:13 GMT -8
Here's a a parallel thought from a military modeler....
"For years, we've heard the lament that "the hobby is dying", and to a point, it has--it is no longer a pocket money hobby where I kid with a few bucks ($2 in my day, closer to $20 in this day and age) in his pocket can build and paint a model. Plastic modeling is going (and has been for two and a half decades, I think) the same direction as model railroading--it has become a hobby that attracts, for the most part, older men with disposable income. That's not sexist, it is what I saw every day I worked at hobby shops in two states and three cities on three separate occasions between 1995 and 2017."forum.ipmsusa3.org/topic/22049-goodbye-testors/
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 31, 2021 13:00:06 GMT -8
I'm gonna come at this in a slightly different direction:
Get you chops back spraying test pieces and throw-away models. Then when you've got your confidence, start painting the good stuff.
That's been my plan for learning weathering, though I've yet to start. I've got my Athearn cars from the olden days, and I'll learn on them before I do my Tangent stuff.
Just a thought,
Ed
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Post by drsvelte on May 31, 2021 14:25:25 GMT -8
What Ed said x2. I have a pile of old Athearn blue box stuff that i use to make my mistakes on. Sorta like the adage of "measure twice, cut once." There are also some things about airbrushing that don't have an initial high priority, but once you sit down at the booth become particulally salient. Exactly how do you position the stuff that you want to paint? Here are some things that I use. This gizmo I aCquired probably 40+ years ago and for me is invaluable. I can easily hold a shell with one hand, move it around to apply paint.  This second one is similar. Attach a freight car to the fixture by the bolsters and you have a nice hands-free paint platform.  Some other useful things to hold small items. I like the green stick thingies for holding truck sideframes by the bolsters.  In addition to the paints themselves, you'll need some equipment for measuring and storing the stuff.  Get one of these, particularly if you plan on using acrylics. The pros say acrylics are like Bond - "stirred, not shaken" 😁  I really enjoy airbrushing and learning how to be a better practitioner of the art. Good luck! |
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Post by lars on Jun 1, 2021 3:32:53 GMT -8
I'm gonna come at this in a slightly different direction: Get you chops back spraying test pieces and throw-away models. Then when you've got your confidence, start painting the good stuff. That's been my plan for learning weathering, though I've yet to start. I've got my Athearn cars from the olden days, and I'll learn on them before I do my Tangent stuff. Just a thought, Ed I’m definitely doing this. Hopefully I conveyed that message in the OP. I don’t think I’m ready for True Color or some advanced techniques. There’s been a lot of good advice so far and I’ll have to research things a bit further, but it looks like I have some good staring points. My plan is to start with the cheapest models I own and work my way up. Boxcars seem like an easier start than tank cars or covered hoppers, too. |
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Post by lars on Jun 2, 2021 18:44:22 GMT -8
Thanks for everybody taking the time to post. Christian’s NP boxcar build has also been very helpful.
I’m catching up as much as I can on paint. The biggest question I have right now is primer. That seems to be where opinions are the most scattered.
I need to pick a primer for the usual locomotive and freight car stuff - base coat for light colors and highlight any errors that need to be corrected. I see some folks using specific primers, as Christian mentioned, while use rattle can products, either from the model suppliers or regular ol’ Krylon. First off, are spray cans a good option, or do they end up going on too thick? Are the model-specific ones superior, or don’t you see much difference?
Second, I understand the concept of using an enamel for primer, as it adheres to the plastic well, while sometimes acrylics have a hard time sticking. For those acrylic primers, is there anything I should be looking for, such as Stynylrez’s being a water based acrylic polyurethane?
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Post by Christian on Jun 4, 2021 2:36:42 GMT -8
The biggest question I have right now is primer. I think a better question is "Should I use a primer?" Back in the blacksmith era primer helped paint adhere to metal. Particularly brass which doesn't like paint. Nowadays primer is used as a neutral color that brings all the disparate components of a model together. It gives a good base for color coats that might not otherwise cover very well. Yellow, red, green, orange, for example, don't cover very well. Gray is the most common primer color. But white, black, red, metallic silver, and metallic gold all have uses as primers. As well as lots of other colors. Vallejo lists 32 colors as primers! I have used Krylon gray primer for decades and still have an active can for projects that need to be sealed as well as painted. After a day it is wet/dry sandable and is happy to accept common putty fillers. I've not used any of the hobby paint rattle can primers and can't answer that part of the question. Usually, hobby paint primers are finer than hardware store primers. Tamiya, AKI, Testors, Vallejo, Scalecoat, and so on have lacquer or enamel spray primers in small, pricey rattle cans. Hopefully, someone will chime in on using those. I'm surprised that there haven't been lots of answers to this question already. Stynylrez is weird. I've used it for five years since getting turned on to it by military modelers. You can get the best information about using Stynylrez from military modeling youtube videos. Essentially, it is thick and airbrushes at about 27lb. (It can be thinned if your airbrush tip is too small.) It levels and drys very thin. And, other than being sandable and very opaque, it seems like every other acrylic paint. Soft and not very adherent. It comes off with Windex. But, as it cures through days and weeks it gets very tough and resistant to Windex. I use white, black and gray. There are many other colors. Mostly I use white. |
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Post by Christian on Jun 4, 2021 3:01:07 GMT -8
Back in the blacksmith era primer helped paint adhere to metal. Particularly brass which doesn't like paint. Other old-timers will recall endless discussions about pickling solutions and the best oven temperature for curing Floquil and 410M paint. |
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Post by lars on Jun 4, 2021 7:17:25 GMT -8
Right now I'm doing some carving of ladders and grabs off some boxcars, so I definitely need some primer to highlight the boo-boo's before finishing.
I also need to re-do my air setup in my garage from the compressor back and I'm planning on dropping the airbrush compressor in place of a manifold I will build to hook up to my shop air. But that's for a bit later this summer. In the meantime I may just use a spray can to prime and do any final filling and sanding. I can wait on color, I just want to move on from this current step.
I also watched a few videos on the Stynylrez primer. It does seem like one of best acrylic based primers, so once the brush is setup I will likely get some.
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