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Post by steveturner on Oct 14, 2021 14:30:05 GMT -8
Good afternoon group. Dug up my new in the box proto 2000 GP9 Phase 111,old blue box,Long hood forward so i removed the horn to relocate.I noticed it gets put on the winterization hatch, not a problem. I looked up pictures of position of hatch and i see two variations, a short hatch that sits behind fan on roof and the one i have has a box and screen section that would cover the existing fan. Can i get an explanation please..dynamic breaks have anything todo with this. As it is now i would probably have to pop off the rear fan to square the hatch nicely. I shall put horn on top of hatch. If i dont like the hatch set up where would i locate horn?...just behind rear fan shroud. Thanks for direction on this issue that seems to baffle me HA!.Steve
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 14, 2021 14:52:38 GMT -8
Phase III GP9's had two single 48" fans on the top, rather than the "normal" four 36". When there was a winterization hatch, it was huge, and covered the whole fan at that end. Has nothing to do with dynamic brakes. Here's a picture of a phase III GN GP9:  Note that, in this case, the horns are on the cab roof. On this one (former GN 726), the horns are on the winterization hatch:  Ed |
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Post by steveturner on Oct 14, 2021 15:32:36 GMT -8
Thanks Ed for the info..appreciated..Steve
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Post by fishbelly on Oct 14, 2021 18:15:15 GMT -8
Keep in mind. If you are applying a winterization hatch that you can see into. There is no fan guard on the fan. just the fan base with the fan. The winterization hatch serves as the fan guard. Also, the winterization hatch would not fit in place with the fan guard on.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 14, 2021 19:53:44 GMT -8
Keep in mind. If you are applying a winterization hatch that you can see into. There is no fan guard on the fan. just the fan base with the fan. The winterization hatch serves as the fan guard. Also, the winterization hatch would not fit in place with the fan guard on. Interesting idea. As far as I can see, winterization hatches are always taller than a fully equipped fan, so the hatch COULD fit. And while there is no need to keep the fan guard, neither is there a need to remove it. Perhaps some pictures showing the insides would prove the point. Ed |
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Post by steveturner on Oct 14, 2021 21:02:45 GMT -8
On the model the hatch does not fit over the fan with shroud Maybe in real life it does..on the model it does not..have to remove fan cover. A point too on the under side of the old Proto shell GP9 Phase 111 there are three small pin marks so you can drill to fit the winterizing cover which has three pins two at front and one back dead center. I was told that and had look see..bonus.I think the old Proto models still a great product and good value..Thanks for your help guys..appreciated.Steve
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Post by dstark on Oct 14, 2021 21:24:22 GMT -8
Fishbelly knows of what he speaks, I've never seen a regular fan grill under a prototype winterization hatch. Especially on EMDs that don't have the early cap- or pan-top grills, the taller shroud on later EMD fans would inhibit the purpose of the hatch, circulating air into the engine compartment and likely interfere with the shutter mechanism inside the hatch. 36" fan example on a CP GP9 - that's just the fan hub visible under the winterization hatch - click to enlarge the photo trainiax.net/photos/2008/2008-07-02-cpqs/photo-cp8201-2-2008-07-02-cpqs.JPGDoug Stark Keep in mind. If you are applying a winterization hatch that you can see into. There is no fan guard on the fan. just the fan base with the fan. The winterization hatch serves as the fan guard. Also, the winterization hatch would not fit in place with the fan guard on. Interesting idea. As far as I can see, winterization hatches are always taller than a fully equipped fan, so the hatch COULD fit. And while there is no need to keep the fan guard, neither is there a need to remove it. Perhaps some pictures showing the insides would prove the point. Ed |
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Post by steveturner on Oct 14, 2021 21:29:13 GMT -8
Guys i have to say sorry..once the lift rings are removed from around the fan the cover fits with fan shroud on.Remember this is the model. I was able to save lift rings by slightly drilling the pins and glue from under the shell. The pin drill points under shell for hatch are a life saver..drilled out and the hatch pins line up perfectly.Sorry again for the no when it was a yes.Steve
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Post by steveturner on Oct 14, 2021 21:36:00 GMT -8
From what i have read though it fits over the fan grill cover..the gril cover is redundant and could be removed on the model .Thanks
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Post by dstark on Oct 14, 2021 21:36:28 GMT -8
Something to note if you are protypically inclined - on 48" fan winterization hatches, GN liked to add a thin strip of rectangular grid running board over one side of the winterization hatch wire mesh. This always appears to be on the left side looking forward (toward long hood end, which is front on GN high hood locos). I can't find any overhead shots but you can see a trace of it in the shot of BN 1799 above, and in this side view of GN 724 here: donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0400/gn724.jpgNot positive but I think GN added this at the same time the horn was moved to the winterization hatch. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 14, 2021 23:31:39 GMT -8
If the fans blow warm air out from the radiators, could the horn movement be to allow the warm air to keep the horns from freezing up?
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Post by fishbelly on Oct 15, 2021 5:51:02 GMT -8
Back when I was very new to prototype modeling and the internet was still in the beginning of its infancy. I asked this very question on Andy Harmons prototype modeling group. I got a message from Don Strack (Utah Rails). I believe Don was at the time or maybe had retired from the UP. He explained to me in detail about how the hatch worked and the fan arrangement inside. Since I am a visual person, I had a hard time understanding his explanation at the time. I was not yet so familiar with locomotives. Since then I have gathered MANY photos and taken many trips to museums. I do understand what I am modeling now. Here are some photos of an ex Soo Line GP30 with winterization hatch. You can clearly see there is no fan guard. I think I may have photos of other locomotives as well, I would just need to dig around. I remembered I had these though in my GP30 folder.    |
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Post by steveturner on Oct 15, 2021 6:21:44 GMT -8
Wow a nice read this morning with my coffee..Great info and thanks gents for taking the time to provide this info and pictures. I am a bit disappointed i had a Miniature by Erics hood bell i was going to use but its looks oversize...where might i find a more to scale hood bell for my GN GP9. Bit of a downer as i had cleaned up and painted the brass detail then when comparing to other bells on units it looked a tad big...production probably not as refined back then compared to today.Steve
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 15, 2021 8:02:10 GMT -8
Great pictures, thanks!
I surely wish more rail photographers spent more time on bridges, shooting down. Or climbing around them.
Ed
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Post by fishbelly on Oct 15, 2021 10:30:24 GMT -8
Great pictures, thanks! I surely wish more rail photographers spent more time on bridges, shooting down. Or climbing around them. Ed I've got more detail photos of the GP30 than you would even imagine. Details that are overlooked simply because the details are hidden from ground photographers. Bet folks had no idea of the detail features on the roof of the GP30 cab. Also different between the phase I and phase II. The leading edge of the drop down into the DB fan recess with a 2" x 1.5" angle iron welded across it. Very difficult to see if you are not looking for it. Different tread plate pattern between phases. Early units had pimple like the GP7/9/18/20. Later phases had cross pattern like the GP35. Lots of fun details to add that make the difference and also that pretty much nobody really cares about. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 15, 2021 10:49:30 GMT -8
Lots of fun details to add that make the difference and also that pretty much nobody really cares about. Once upon a time, nobody cared about the differences in louvers between a GP7 and GP9. No. Really! If it has an extra fan in the middle, plus some bumps on the side, it's a GP9. If it doesn't, it's a GP7. Plus it's good to document and (hopefully) share railroad info. I wish more people did it. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 15, 2021 11:07:25 GMT -8
Something to note if you are protypically inclined - on 48" fan winterization hatches, GN liked to add a thin strip of rectangular grid running board over one side of the winterization hatch wire mesh. This always appears to be on the left side looking forward (toward long hood end, which is front on GN high hood locos). GN put that kind of thing on 36" fan winterization hatches, too. I've got a shot of one on a GP (661, I think). I have thought that it's a cooling grid. GN loved to use those on their F's. I'm going to hold off on changing my mind until I see better documentation, either way. Ed |
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Post by dstark on Oct 16, 2021 6:15:14 GMT -8
[quote author=" edwardsutorik" I'm going to hold off on changing my mind until I see better documentation, either way. [/quote] Identical installation on an ex-GN SD9. As I described, It's a short piece of rectangular grid running board offset to one side so that personnel don't need to step on the wire mesh over the fan. Less need to go up and over the smaller winterization hatches over 36" fans but I believe I have seen it on at least one. BN 6119 |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 16, 2021 8:08:34 GMT -8
OK, I'm leaning more in that direction. I still want to see a photo where it's clearly a metal grid running board, though. Someone somewhere has that shot!
Now, getting more into stuff that only GN people care about: Since these "devices" don't seem to be on all Geeps, it strikes me that maybe it was a thing done only out of one shop. I'll mention that my photo of 661 was taken somewhere in GN's flatlands.
Ed
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Post by fishbelly on Oct 16, 2021 8:32:41 GMT -8
In the photo of BN 1799 posted here yo can clearly see there is a tread plate put on top of the winterization hatch.
If I had to guess what it was. I would say expanded metal with a frame built under it.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 16, 2021 10:41:38 GMT -8
How can you tell it's treadplate, considering the photo was taken from ground level? And not exactly at close-up distance.
Ed
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Post by fishbelly on Oct 16, 2021 11:16:29 GMT -8
How can you tell it's treadplate, considering the photo was taken from ground level? And not exactly at close-up distance. Ed I just called it tread plate as a generic definition. I believe it is expanded steel. But you can see there is a "feature" up there that is added to the top of the winterization hatch. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 16, 2021 12:30:37 GMT -8
Yes, a "feature". And I said earlier that I had thought that feature was a cooling device. Now it's being asserted here that it is a walkway. I suspect that's true, but I want to see it clearly shown.
A cooling device might well look like what is showing in the photo you cited.
Great Northern was very interested in installing their own versions of "cooling devices" on F's. So it's not unreasonable they might have done so on non-F's.
Ed
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Post by rounder on Oct 17, 2021 5:55:13 GMT -8
In the photo of BN 1799 posted here yo can clearly see there is a tread plate put on top of the winterization hatch. If I had to guess what it was. I would say expanded metal with a frame built under it. looks like a piece of Apex running board trimmed smaller from where I’m sitting. A fairly practical solution, since all they would have to do is go to the nearest wrecked or retired covered hopper, (or caboose, or tank car…..) torch off a piece, knock the dross off of it, and then stitch-weld it in place. Or just several good tack welds if they were really lazy that day. -former millwright / industrial fabricator |
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Post by dstark on Oct 19, 2021 13:10:01 GMT -8
*sigh*, I give up. You do you with "cooling device". When I get to modeling a BN ex-GN Phase III SD-9 I'll putting a strip of running board over the winterization hatch screen as a crossover for HO scale maintenance personnel. Crops from my photos, BN 6123 ex GN 596 at Galesburg, IL June 22, 2001  BN6123crop1 by de_stark, on Flickr  BN6123crop2 by de_stark, on Flickr In the first shot I believe you can even see the rough nubs left over after the shop likely cut down the walkway from a piece of wider stock. Doug Stark Yes, a "feature". And I said earlier that I had thought that feature was a cooling device. Now it's being asserted here that it is a walkway. I suspect that's true, but I want to see it clearly shown. A cooling device might well look like what is showing in the photo you cited. Great Northern was very interested in installing their own versions of "cooling devices" on F's. So it's not unreasonable they might have done so on non-F's. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 19, 2021 13:44:32 GMT -8
Nice pictures!
Ed
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Post by packer on Oct 19, 2021 18:24:11 GMT -8
Great, something I gotta add to my ex-GN units. Wonder if F45s and F7 winterization hatches would have that same strip?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 19, 2021 19:22:27 GMT -8
GN didn't put horns on top of those winterization hatches, so no need to spend much time there.
Ed
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