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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 26, 2022 10:57:49 GMT -8
I'm curious of the thoughts of working railroaders on whether they would prefer two of these MUed back to back, or nose to nose.
Back to back (now defined as "nose-nose"):
better crash protection
easier commute between your two offices
an extra room close by so you and your friends can more easily exchange insults
the controls face "the right way"
Nose to nose (now defined as "cab-cab"):
better crew visibility, leading to better safety (except for that crashing part) and efficiency
Whatd'ya say?
I ask because I'm redoing a couple of Athearn MP15AC's, and I thought I might operate them as a pair.
Ed
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Post by Baikal on Nov 26, 2022 15:17:05 GMT -8
I'm curious of the thoughts of working railroaders on whether they would prefer two of these MUed back to back, or nose to nose. Back to back: better crash protection easier commute between your two offices an extra room close by so you and your friends can more easily exchange insults the controls face "the right way" Nose to nose: better crew visibility, leading to better safety (except for that crashing part) and efficiency Whatd'ya say? I ask because I'm redoing a couple of Athearn MP15AC's, and I thought I might operate them as a pair. Ed
From a former railroader who spent most of the time in the yard & industry switching. (I liked to be home every nite)
Cab-cab and nose-nose will both have control stands on opposite sides. So both offer "right way" controls.
Assuming there's some reason you offer no elephant option, like the set will need to be operated from both cabs at different times during the shift/run: Out somewhere & back without turning power, going around a wye multiple times, switching left & right-hand yard leads or both ends of a yard, etc... And both unit's controls & comfort level the same... And management or power control doesn't have some reason for setting up the units in a specific configuartion- say for later use elsewhere.
THEN it's going to be crew's choice...which means engineer's choice (conductor will defer to engineer for this).
In yard and industry work, especially when making & breaking a lot of joints against the loco, the engineer will prefer the cab end be next to the coupling action. He can see the pin puller on either side. Which means nose-nose if two units facing opposite directions.
BUT, more importantly, for visibility & crew communications, it's WAY preferable that the loco controls be on the same side as the switchmen, that is, on the outside of the yard lead, inside curves, etc. If the engineer can't see the man on the ground, there needs to be a 2nd person in the cab or good radio. Many crewmembers (myself included) prefered to minimize radio use, especially in the yard or switching industries. Hand / lantern / fusee signals were used whenever possible. Some engineers hated the radio in yard work because they needed to use a hand to hold mic or press button.
SO, if comparing nose-nose to cab-cab, the average engineer-to-switchman visibility is better with cab-cab because the switchman closest to the loco (pin man) doesn't need to step as far away from the units to signal the engineer when on a curve, like going in to a track from the lead. (Neither nose-nose nor cab-cab is great for yard switching).
If you're going out of the yard anywhere speeds are over restricted and/or there are grade crossings, cab-cab is definitely better due balance of visibilty + collision protection. Conversely if you're running something like a 3-hour transfer run at restricted speed, no grade xings, nose-nose may be marginally better.
Also, the engineer's not going to like switching ends any more than "necessary".
So, overall, cab-cab is preferred, some exceptions.
I've had a few engineers whine like babies or threaten to go home sick if they had to run long hood first & backwards for any distance (say over 200 feet or 5 minutes). We'd let them turn the power if at all possible, but sometimes it wasn't. But I almost never would force a crew to work a yard job with the engineer on the "bad" side. Unsafe.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 26, 2022 15:51:31 GMT -8
I'm getting confused as to which term (cab-cab, nose-nose, end-end) applies to which setup.
Ed
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Post by Baikal on Nov 26, 2022 15:54:34 GMT -8
I'm getting confused as to which term (cab-cab, nose-nose, end-end) applies to which setup. Ed Fixed.
To make it simple, cab-cab is usually moar better.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 26, 2022 18:30:14 GMT -8
NOTE:
"cab-cab" is now defined as cabs facing outwards for a two-unit set
"nose-nose" is now defined as noses facing outwards.
Ed
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Post by cemr5396 on Nov 26, 2022 20:19:46 GMT -8
from what I've gathered over the years talking to the 'old heads' I know, the CN and CP crews around here tended to prefer having the units paired nose to nose (as in with the cabs facing outwards) when running end cab switchers in pairs in the yard or on local jobs. This made it fairly easy to see ahead of you through the big 'rear' windows of such switchers, while at the same time it was also pretty easy to look the other way down the train for hand signals from other crew member(s). The crossing safety aspect tended to be a non issue as at the very low speeds you would be doing while switching out an industrial park (literal walking speed or slightly more in most cases) a grade crossing collision would tend to be pretty much harmless to all parties involved.
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Post by Baikal on Nov 26, 2022 20:21:22 GMT -8
NOTE: "cab-cab" is now defined as cabs facing outwards for a two-unit set "nose-nose" is now defined as noses facing outwards. Ed
You asked what railroaders prefer. I try to explain why.
Whatever.
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Post by Baikal on Nov 26, 2022 20:30:15 GMT -8
from what I've gathered over the years talking to the 'old heads' I know, the CN and CP crews around here tended to prefer having the units paired nose to nose (as in with the cabs facing outwards) when running end cab switchers in pairs in the yard or on local jobs. This made it fairly easy to see ahead of you through the big 'rear' windows of such switchers, while at the same time it was also pretty easy to look the other way down the train for hand signals from other crew member(s). The crossing safety aspect tended to be a non issue as at the very low speeds you would be doing while switching out an industrial park (literal walking speed or slightly more in most cases) a grade crossing collision would tend to be pretty much harmless to all parties involved.
Clearly, with that dangerous statement, you've never worked for a railroad. But you've talked to railroaders...
lol, ok.
More important than forward visibility at v low speeds, is the ability of the engineer to see the neareat man-on-the ground and vv. The engineer needs to be on the outside of the switch lead andr on the inside of curves so he can see the crew working the switches. The crew does not want to step over track to give signals.
Generally, running cab-ahead puts the engineer on the inside, the unsafe side of the switch lead (as normally configured). This is why you usually see yard switchers with the cab against the cars being switched. And also very important, having the cab against the cars lets the engineer SEE THE JOINT being made or uncoupled. He can see the couplers and a man on either side of the track. He can see air hoses being made, cut-in, etc. After all, when switching, MOST couplings/uncouplings take place AT the loco!
This is all less important with everyone having radios, but it's still true.
I've switched tens of thousand of cars. Hated being on the road, almost always worked on the ground in the yard or industry switching + yardmaster + trainmaster + more. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 27, 2022 6:30:46 GMT -8
NOTE: "cab-cab" is now defined as cabs facing outwards for a two-unit set "nose-nose" is now defined as noses facing outwards. Ed You asked what railroaders prefer. I try to explain why.
Whatever.
I did. And I want to understand what you're describing. That's why I wanted a very clear description of the two setups. Perhaps a better descriptor would be "cabs out" and "cabs in". Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 27, 2022 6:57:48 GMT -8
I did a search for "pair of switching locomotives". Looking only at end cab switchers, I found 7 in elephant style. I found one setup with cabs at the end:  Here's the link, providing interesting comment below: www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=473584and one setup with cabs together:  IF a yard were to keep all its switchers facing the same direction, then the natural setup when paired would be elephant style. Ed |
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Post by Baikal on Nov 27, 2022 8:54:52 GMT -8
I did a search for "pair of switching locomotives". Looking only at end cab switchers, I found 7 in elephant style. I found one setup with cabs at the end: Here's the link, providing interesting comment below: www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=473584and one setup with cabs together: IF a yard were to keep all its switchers facing the same direction, then the natural setup when paired would be elephant style. Ed
If a yard were to keep all its switchers facing the same direction, then elephant style is not only the natural setup, it's the only MU-able setup.
If there's a wye in the yard to turn cars or out in industrial area, power is going to get flipped end-end.
In a normal double-ended yard and/or one with left & right-hand leads, you're going to want some switchers facing east, some west. Typically, when a shift started where multiple yard jobs came to work at or near the same time & place, you'd let the crews work it out as to who is going to use what loco. That's after power control has their say on what units they might want to be used on locals or to work toward maintence point, be available for fueling, etc. Yardmaster, power control, crews communicate & work it out. Sometimes a crew might have to wait an hour or more until a unit facing the right direction returns to the yard.
Cab-to-cab like in the photo is more common than end-end.
The 9574 is missing all MU hoses on the front, maybe because cab-cab is the only way the PC wanted these to MU. Some switchers were delivered with MU only on the cab end. I've never heard of any delivered with MU only on the front.
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Post by mvlandsw on Nov 28, 2022 17:42:03 GMT -8
The Union Railroad ran up to five end cab switchers together as road power and kept a cab out on both ends of the consist.
I found that the CSX MP15's would suck exhaust fumes into the cab when running at speed on the main with the cab leading. I had to crack the center cab door to blow the fumes back out.
Mark
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 29, 2022 13:52:38 GMT -8
More important than forward visibility at v low speeds, is the ability of the engineer to see the neareat man-on-the ground and vv. The engineer needs to be on the outside of the switch lead andr on the inside of curves so he can see the crew working the switches. The crew does not want to step over track to give signals. Generally, running cab-ahead puts the engineer on the inside, the unsafe side of the switch lead (as normally configured). This is why you usually see yard switchers with the cab against the cars being switched. And also very important, having the cab against the cars lets the engineer SEE THE JOINT being made or uncoupled. He can see the couplers and a man on either side of the track. He can see air hoses being made, cut-in, etc. After all, when switching, MOST couplings/uncouplings take place AT the loco! This is all less important with everyone having radios, but it's still true. I've switched tens of thousand of cars. Hated being on the road, almost always worked on the ground in the yard or industry switching + yardmaster + trainmaster + more. Cemr5396 mentioned working in a industrial park where the crew would likely encounter numerous crossings and have to deal with cars on either end of the consist throughout their day. In that case it's better to have the cab rear facing the direction of movement since the engineer would likely have to look out for crossings, switches and derails on his own since the crew is working industries behind the locomotive. Working on a lead in a yard is a different story though. It's way easier to be on the same side as the crew members who keep going in between to cut in the air. The yards I'm used to working in are double-ended, so depending on which end of the yard you're working you'll either have the switches on your right or left. For many of the lead jobs I've worked you only make a handful of joints against the locomotive during the day. Most of the work consists of whittling down the cut of cars to nothing or gathering up a track to pull. The action tends to take place back in the cut somewhere. There's usually not this kind of switching with industry jobs other than when you build your drag to take out to the industries or maybe they're isn't much room to pick out pulls and off-spot cars at certain locations. Many times we'll use a handle to reach into the industry especially if there's a restriction against using the locomotive inside a facility or near a structure like a grain head house. One of my favorite industry jobs to work has locations where you build your outbound drag on either end of the locomotives, so that you're shoving in either direction, that way when you get to the industries you're set up to spot and pull cars in either direction since there's no place to run around. You've got to have faith your crew knows what they're doing on that one! |
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Post by hudsonyard on Nov 29, 2022 15:38:51 GMT -8
More important than forward visibility at v low speeds, is the ability of the engineer to see the neareat man-on-the ground and vv. The engineer needs to be on the outside of the switch lead andr on the inside of curves so he can see the crew working the switches. The crew does not want to step over track to give signals. Generally, running cab-ahead puts the engineer on the inside, the unsafe side of the switch lead (as normally configured). This is why you usually see yard switchers with the cab against the cars being switched. And also very important, having the cab against the cars lets the engineer SEE THE JOINT being made or uncoupled. He can see the couplers and a man on either side of the track. He can see air hoses being made, cut-in, etc. After all, when switching, MOST couplings/uncouplings take place AT the loco! This is all less important with everyone having radios, but it's still true. I've switched tens of thousand of cars. Hated being on the road, almost always worked on the ground in the yard or industry switching + yardmaster + trainmaster + more. One of my favorite industry jobs to work has locations where you build your outbound drag on either end of the locomotives, so that you're shoving in either direction, that way when you get to the industries you're set up to spot and pull cars in either direction since there's no place to run around. You've got to have faith your crew knows what they're doing on that one!
Theres a local modern era layout owner who insists its "against FRA regulations" to shove and pull cars at the same time, and has apparently yelled at his operators for doing it. I've turned down invites a couple times because of this.
I've seen the LIRR use MP15ACs in every conceivable way, but i cannot remember ever seeing one lead a commuter train with the glass out, frieghts and work trains absolutely, but never at passenger speeds through the islands many grade crossings.
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Post by Baikal on Nov 30, 2022 9:26:19 GMT -8
More important than forward visibility at v low speeds, is the ability of the engineer to see the neareat man-on-the ground and vv. The engineer needs to be on the outside of the switch lead andr on the inside of curves so he can see the crew working the switches. The crew does not want to step over track to give signals. Generally, running cab-ahead puts the engineer on the inside, the unsafe side of the switch lead (as normally configured). This is why you usually see yard switchers with the cab against the cars being switched. And also very important, having the cab against the cars lets the engineer SEE THE JOINT being made or uncoupled. He can see the couplers and a man on either side of the track. He can see air hoses being made, cut-in, etc. After all, when switching, MOST couplings/uncouplings take place AT the loco! This is all less important with everyone having radios, but it's still true. I've switched tens of thousand of cars. Hated being on the road, almost always worked on the ground in the yard or industry switching + yardmaster + trainmaster + more. Cemr5396 mentioned working in a industrial park where the crew would likely encounter numerous crossings and have to deal with cars on either end of the consist throughout their day. In that case it's better to have the cab rear facing the direction of movement since the engineer would likely have to look out for crossings, switches and derails on his own since the crew is working industries behind the locomotive. Working on a lead in a yard is a different story though. It's way easier to be on the same side as the crew members who keep going in between to cut in the air. The yards I'm used to working in are double-ended, so depending on which end of the yard you're working you'll either have the switches on your right or left. For many of the lead jobs I've worked you only make a handful of joints against the locomotive during the day. Most of the work consists of whittling down the cut of cars to nothing or gathering up a track to pull. The action tends to take place back in the cut somewhere. There's usually not this kind of switching with industry jobs other than when you build your drag to take out to the industries or maybe they're isn't much room to pick out pulls and off-spot cars at certain locations. Many times we'll use a handle to reach into the industry especially if there's a restriction against using the locomotive inside a facility or near a structure like a grain head house. One of my favorite industry jobs to work has locations where you build your outbound drag on either end of the locomotives, so that you're shoving in either direction, that way when you get to the industries you're set up to spot and pull cars in either direction since there's no place to run around. You've got to have faith your crew knows what they're doing on that one!
I agree with all that. The best conductors can see many moves ahead plus they have multiple "back-up" plans for when something goes awry.
When making up an outbound train, sometimes the YM (& clerk) specifies every move. Other times, just the cars/cuts that will make up a train were marked-up on printed track lists. How the train was made up was up to the crew- this included using whatever tracks they saw fit to use, baring instructions from the YM, other crews, rules. If you have more than one crew switching the same end of the yard this gets complicated & more dangerous. Sometimes even the track # a train was being made up on would change due to switchcrew request. Sometimes a crewmember would see certain car type (an empty for, say, paper loading) in a different track and, if it made their job easier, would ask if they could use those cars instead of what was marked-up on the switchlist. (This kind of switching could irritate some clerks that had to keep updating the computer. If a clerk went home before the crew came back to the office with a seriously modified final switchlist, the clerk on the next shift would not be happy).
Locals & industry jobs where the crew makes up their own train were always left to the conductor's decisions. Just take x cars and go. Please. The blocking for outbound trains was consistant, subject to management decisions, and was known by all.
It wasn't unusual to build two trains in a single track. Same direction or opposite, by a single crew or crews on each end of the yard.
In several yards I worked, the track assignment would be different every day- as long as outbound trains were made-up on tracks with yard air. Almost every day a different track or switch was out-of-service. These were noted on a whiteboard in the yard office.
It wasn't uncommon for yard & local crews coming on duty at the same to haggle over what units they would be using. Per approval by the trainmaster & power control. Sometimes a crew would need to wait until a proper unit came back to the yard. Sometimes a crew would start off with a unit facing east then a few hours later, swap it for one in the ready track facing west. Or crews swapping power.
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 30, 2022 10:01:22 GMT -8
I agree with all that. The best conductors can see many moves ahead plus they have multiple "back-up" plans for when something goes awry. When making up an outbound train, sometimes the YM (& clerk) specifies every move. Other times, just the cars/cuts that will make up a train were marked-up on printed track lists. How the train was made up was up to the crew- this included using whatever tracks they saw fit to use, baring instructions from the YM, other crews, rules. If you have more than one crew switching the same end of the yard this gets complicated & more dangerous. Sometimes even the track # a train was being made up on would change due to switchcrew request. Sometimes a crewmember would see certain car type (an empty for, say, paper loading) in a different track and, if it made their job easier, would ask if they could use those cars instead of what was marked-up on the switchlist. (This kind of switching could irritate some clerks that had to keep updating the computer. If a clerk went home before the crew came back to the office with a seriously modified final switchlist, the clerk on the next shift would not be happy). Locals & industry jobs where the crew makes up their own train were always left to the conductor's decisions. Just take x cars and go. Please. The blocking for outbound trains was consistant, subject to management decisions, and was known by all. It wasn't unusual to build two trains in a single track. Same direction or opposite, by a single crew or crews on each end of the yard. In several yards I worked, the track assignment would be different every day- as long as outbound trains were made-up on tracks with yard air. Almost every day a different track or switch was out-of-service. These were noted on a whiteboard in the yard office. It wasn't uncommon for yard & local crews coming on duty at the same to haggle over what units they would be using. Per approval by the trainmaster & power control. Sometimes a crew would need to wait until a proper unit came back to the yard. Sometimes a crew would start off with a unit facing east then a few hours later, swap it for one in the ready track facing west. Or crews swapping power. Some things never change! We have a couple yards here on a steep grade, so everything gets switched on air. The big yard north of town is flat enough everything is handled off air. LOL! Truer words were never spoken. There are times of the day when we would have a lead job working each end of the yard on one side (old side or teen side), an industry switcher getting their cars together on one end on the opposite side of the lead job and a transfer job getting their drag together at the other end next to the other lead job. And this is a pretty small yard, so your trains are typically doubled or tripled over after you build them. Other trains would come into the yard as the night went on and a miscommunication could end in disaster pretty easily. One night I was between moves sitting on the west lead power while an industry job was getting their cars together in the tracks next to me. A local had just come into the east end of the yard, ran around their drag and was shoving it into the yard from the east end. They went too far and shoved out the west end of the track and onto the west lead, striking the cars the industry job was putting together while those guys were shoving those cars a couple tracks over. They were thrown off as the train abruptly stopped moving. Luckily neither of those guys were hurt, but the cars sure got tore up. The more moving parts you have the more dangerous it can be. |
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wsor
Full Member
The Route of the Ruptured Duck
Posts: 131
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Post by wsor on Dec 4, 2022 19:35:06 GMT -8
Used to run them glass end out, for better visibility. Some of the yards were set up as forward yards, so I had a good view of the lineup up the ladder.
It did get exciting at 49 mph, though...
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Post by 12bridge on Dec 5, 2022 20:52:46 GMT -8
When it comes to working the ground and having to cross over often, the nose of MP15's SUCK. Those front steps (ladders) are horrible, and the front walkway around the nose is really narrow to be crossing over a lot. The rear end is a little better, but they really should have an extra step in there. Its a bit of a stride climbing them with gear.
While I have not run them all day, I can say visibility on either end is pretty damn good for whoever's on the ground. It does not really matter which way they are trailing as long as there is a good mirror on them.
When it comes to doing mechanical work on them when your up and down all day...they simply suck all around, period.
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Post by sd80mac on Dec 9, 2022 14:35:46 GMT -8
I run a pair of MP15ACs regularly, and I prefer back to back (cab to cab).
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Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 10, 2022 7:26:26 GMT -8
Thanks to all who've commented. Very interesting. Very useful.
Ed
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Post by wjstix on Jan 10, 2023 8:56:32 GMT -8
Just a quick (but late!) comment - what job the engines were performing seemed to make a difference. I grew up along a stub-end branch of a shortline that normally used two end-cab EMD switchers as motive power. Going by where the F designating Front was on the engines, they virtually always ran back-to-back. Later, when Soo Line took over the line, they often ran it with a Soo GP-9 and Milwaukee MP-15 back-to-back. However, it seems like when two end-cab switchers are used in yard switching, they're very often front-to-front, with the cabs far apart.
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