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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2023 13:30:40 GMT -8
I've had an NCE Power Pro setup for quite a few years, now.
Generally, I'm quite happy with it and the operating scheme that one uses on the throttle.
But.
Ever since I got it, sometimes when I turn it on, it won't go beyond the opening screen, into the "pick an engine and let's go" part. It just sits there telling me info I'm not yearning to know.
I sent it in to NCE not long after I got it. Whatever they did, uh, didn't.
So I kinda got used to it. I found that if I turned it off and walked away for awhile, it would start going beyond the opening screen. And it's been doing that for, as I said, years. Since I don't have things like invited operating sessions and the like, there's no pressure to have the system ALWAYS start up properly.
But.
Last night it decided to do its trick all evening.
So I'm thinking of replacing the command station. And keeping the throttle. Digitrax doesn't suit me. And I'm having a hard time with the concept of buying ANOTHER NCE command station when they couldn't even fix the one I sent in.
So I'm asking: is anyone (happily) using some other brand of command station? Like I said, I'm after something that will "accept" NCE throttles and work the same way.
Ed
Edward Sutorik
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Post by ncrc5315 on Jan 30, 2023 14:49:11 GMT -8
I could be wrong but, I think if you want to stay with the NCE throttle, you will need to have a NCE command station. If you do decide to go with another system, and since you've already ruled out Digitrax, have you looked at the ESu Cab Control 2?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2023 16:23:14 GMT -8
I haven't seriously looked at anything, yet. The ESU looks pretty cool and flashy. And some would say, expensive. According to this: www.tcsdcc.com/cs-105the TCS command station will work with an NCE throttle. Or I'm totally misreading it. Or it SORTA does, except when you want it to do something it doesn't feel like doing. This is still early, but it's getting old. Ed |
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Post by riogrande on Jan 30, 2023 16:47:09 GMT -8
I'm strongly considering the TCS CS-105 Command Station. It's expensive too. It works off wi-fi out of the box. I bought the UWT-50 and UWT-100 combo deal so I've go the throttles.
Go over the MRH forums. Stewart who works with TCS can answer your questions.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2023 17:39:53 GMT -8
I haven't gotten to questions quite yet (though I do appreciate the suggestion). I'm still at the "what do you guys think" stage. Yeah, the TCS is about $500. So's the NCE. I'm feeling sort of biased against NCE, right now. Maybe there's other ones to consider.
I didn't even know TCS made one until today.
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Jan 31, 2023 6:05:51 GMT -8
The TCS CS-105 command station is pretty new. I believe it was first made available last August. They actually have two systems. One based on their powerful command station sold with a throttle or separately: www.tcsdcc.com/cs-105TCS also has a booster and IIRC, you can use boosters from other systems if you already have, such as Digitrax and NCE. And the LT-50 which is a competitor for the NCE Power Cab starter system. Word is, there is a TCS component to give it wifi ability in the future www.tcsdcc.com/lt-50Alex, over at MRH argues that NCE and Digitrax are systems that are 90's tech and very long in the tooth. And he points out that the upgrade path with NCE is expensive. I've always felt that the consisting in Digitrax is not intuitive or easy to remember, so for years I've been thinking about NCE, which is supposed to be much more straightforward. But not having an operational layout, I have held off. I'm hoping to start getting some trains running this year (presently have the mainline laid but need to add drops. Main yard isn't started yet). Anyway, now that TCS has their Command Station, they look like a good option. My Digitrax Chief, which I've only used a little is now 25 years old so it seems sensible to get something with modern tech (wifi) and more user friendly. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 31, 2023 7:08:27 GMT -8
I use both NCE and Digitrax (the latter because it's (currently) a Free-mo requirement. I far prefer the NCE.
I've gotten used to Digitrax consisting and live with it. What I especially don't like is that it's irritating to deal with locos with numbers between 1 and 127, and that 9984-9999 don't exist (a problem for those owning Burlington E's).
Ed
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Post by crblue on Jan 31, 2023 16:43:10 GMT -8
I second (or 5th, whatever)the TCS 105. I have one with a UWT-100 and like the combo, although it’s a bit pricy, it’s all made an hour away from where I grew up inPennsylvania, so I’ll suffer. My other command station is a Digitrax DCS51, and it’s good enough.
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Post by mvlandsw on Jan 31, 2023 17:09:07 GMT -8
Ed,
Are you sure that the problem is in the command station and not the throttle? I would try another throttle, or your throttle on a different command station.
Mark
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 31, 2023 18:22:19 GMT -8
Ed, Are you sure that the problem is in the command station and not the throttle? I would try another throttle, or your throttle on a different command station. Mark Mark, No, I am not. I only have the one throttle, but I believe a buddy might have another. Up until now, the problem was quite occasional. So, unless I had a throttle right here, I couldn't do the switcheroo. I just went into the train room, tried the throttle, and it now DOES go past the screen--it will work now. So, there's a problem with trying another throttle, unless I have a second one right here, as needed. Which I don't. Quelle pain, as they say in France. Ed PS: Thinking on this a bit, I guess I assumed the problem to be in the command center because all the suggestions for cause (over on the NCE group) that I heard were for things located there: replace the battery, push down on some plug-in circuit inside, send it (the command station) back for repair, etc. NCE did NOT say: "Send us the throttle cause it's in there." Also. Note that this fail is an occasional one. |
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Post by Gino Damen on Feb 15, 2023 13:06:04 GMT -8
Hoi,
You could also look at the ESU ECoS, Uhlenbrock Intellibox 2 or Lens. Also the new command station from YaMoRC (http://yamorc.de/products/?singleproduct=1239) could be an option. It only can't brew a cup of coffee.
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Post by ncrc5315 on Feb 15, 2023 15:18:40 GMT -8
Let's not forget Zimo.
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Post by hudsonyard on Feb 15, 2023 16:33:42 GMT -8
TCS is pricey, but it is very nice. Club just converted and a couple local LI guys have switched over as well, I've got to play with it more, the consisting is very similar to NCE. the UWTs are probably the best throttles on the market right now.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Feb 16, 2023 2:41:58 GMT -8
Also the new command station from YaMoRC (http://yamorc.de/products/?singleproduct=1239) could be an option. In case you, like me, thought that this looked extremely similar to the Digikeijs products, there's a good reason for this. It turns out it's designed by the same person who now has his own company: yamorc.de/ufaqs/does-yamorc-support-the-former-digirails-digikeijs-modules/I wonder if there is more to the story... |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 16, 2023 16:02:59 GMT -8
NCE disciple here, for some time. I started out with a LENZ system. It worked well, but no one around had one and support was ok but time consuming. There were consisting issues.
I began a now long time association with the area NMRA Division, #5 in Lansing, MI, as well as became a regular operator at a large layout in the area that was an NCE system. I found out that ~90% + of area users were NCE and there was a good support system in place. I also have an NCE Power Cab and ESU Loksound Lokprogramer that I use on a individual section of track for Programing with a dedicated PC.
I got an upgrade chip from NCE at one time that I installed in the command station.
I've never had a problem except for having to clear out some memory at one time to reset a consisting issue. Long enuf ago I can't recall details....was sort of a rub your tummy and pat your head procedure but it fixed it.
I'm seeing lots of WiFi systems out there using smart phones, even with NCE, but I'm used to, and have an investment in several, NCE hand helds. I use the "hammerhead" only for the yard master/power desk position. What happens to your train if you get a phone call/text? (using a smart phone on wifi)
Ed; Does the issue continue if you, or have you, reboot the system? Everything I own with a computer in it can use a good boot upside reboot.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 16, 2023 18:31:10 GMT -8
Karl,
Please explain "reboot the system".
I would think turning it off and then on would do that. If that's what you're talking about, no it does not help. What seems to help is waiting "a good long while" to turn it on again--something between an hour and overnight. This last time, it took a lot longer. And I got a lot more irritated.
It does NOT happen when the command station is on. Recently, I just gave up and left it turned on for a week. The problem didn't show up.
But when it does show, it happens on start up. And if I then turn it off, and on again, the problem stays. It will not clear up with a short time turn off. Only a longer one.
Ed
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 19, 2023 20:47:11 GMT -8
Been awhile since I did the NCE reboot….I can’t remember the details, was having consist issues and the process invoked a multi-repetitious process that was to remove remnants of old consists w/in the command station. I am sorry, I just can’t recall the details. Have you read this? Lots of suggestions and trouble shooting info of different NCE issues… dccwiki.com/NCE_Hints |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 20, 2023 7:37:05 GMT -8
Thanks, Karl.
No, I hadn't seen that. I did a quick scan and didn't find a match, but there was interesting stuff to re-look at.
I may raise the problem again in the NCE group. It's been awhile, and perhaps someone has more info.
Ed
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Post by Gino Damen on Feb 27, 2023 14:43:42 GMT -8
Also the new command station from YaMoRC (http://yamorc.de/products/?singleproduct=1239) could be an option. In case you, like me, thought that this looked extremely similar to the Digikeijs products, there's a good reason for this. It turns out it's designed by the same person who now has his own company: yamorc.de/ufaqs/does-yamorc-support-the-former-digirails-digikeijs-modules/I wonder if there is more to the story... Keep it on differences of insights how to proceed into the future. |
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Post by Gino Damen on Feb 27, 2023 14:44:49 GMT -8
Also the new command station from YaMoRC (http://yamorc.de/products/?singleproduct=1239) could be an option. In case you, like me, thought that this looked extremely similar to the Digikeijs products, there's a good reason for this. It turns out it's designed by the same person who now has his own company: yamorc.de/ufaqs/does-yamorc-support-the-former-digirails-digikeijs-modules/I wonder if there is more to the story... Keep it on differences of insights how to proceed into the future. |
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Post by csx3305 on Apr 13, 2023 14:15:12 GMT -8
And here I am still rocking a Lenz 100. It’s old enough for its driver license, but still works like the day it came out of the box.
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Post by michaele on May 24, 2023 9:16:10 GMT -8
After five years the Powercab's deficiencies became apparent to me. Low voltage to the track and not enough current capacity. The speed wheel was toast in a matter of weeks and never worked right after the encoder bit the dust.
I recently upgraded to the ESU Cab Control. Can't say enough good about it and my trains have never ran better.
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Post by riogrande on May 24, 2023 9:52:04 GMT -8
I've decided to cast my lot with TCS CS-105 command station. I placed my order a couple weeks ago but since TCS is waiting on boards before being able to ship so I won't be receiving it until early/mid June. Apparently sales have been good and TCS sold out of their current batch of command stations.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2023 8:10:42 GMT -8
After five years the Powercab's deficiencies became apparent to me. Low voltage to the track and not enough current capacity. The speed wheel was toast in a matter of weeks and never worked right after the encoder bit the dust. I recently upgraded to the ESU Cab Control. Can't say enough good about it and my trains have never ran better. Hello michaele-- Unfortunately I can agree with much of what you said, only in my case the speed wheel still works nicely. However, many of my issues have been with or due to the low current delivered to the track, if not also low voltage. Given recent issues with ScaleTrains motor failures (which have nothing to do with the control system), I've been monitoring the amperage draw of all locomotives. I suspect any voltage drop to be very minimal as I can run BLI steam power without issues. My son wants to run long trains. Adding a third Genesis 2.0 engine causes the amperage of a long train to approach 1. It doesn't quite get to 1.0, but above even 0.7 amps, one engine of a three- or sometimes just two-unit consist may begin cutting out due to lack of voltage or current (at least some of these are supposed to have keep alive built-in so far as I know). I can look for any dirty spots on the track and clean them off, and that helps most of the time but is not always a satisfactory solution. After reading suggestions from folks on these forums, I did add an NCE PB5 booster. It was really the only model available for purchase at the time that I understood would work. So after adding the booster and being much more careful about cleaning track (son is running trains many hours per week), things are better--I also told him he couldn't run 3 engines at one time anymore--but still even with the booster, loco consists may begin to experience power cutouts above 0.7 amps with any train. The cutouts just occur less often than without the booster. I asked my buddy who runs the local train store if my 18-gage bus wire could be the issue and he indicated that re-wiring the layout (which he has operated his own locos on so is familar with) probably would not be of much help. According to the NCE instructions, 18-gage wire should be adequate for a modest layout. My wiring never gets even the slightest bit warm to the touch except perhaps for the NCE wire from the controller to the panel which maybe gets just the slightest bit warm. Unfortunately, my son didn't know any better several weeks ago, and it appears that one locomotive's electronics may have been damaged by the stopping and starting due to power cutouts, and it is the most expensive HO rtr plastic diesel one can buy: his G2 DDA40X. It now is the first unit to stop running anywhere there might be an issue, even if running by itself. So what do I have to do to be able to actually get 1.0 amp or slightly more indicated through a controller and actually to the track such that my son might be able to actually run 3 HO diesels without them dying all the time? The NCE PB5 booster is supposed to supply 5 amps? WTH. (All engines that we would mu in any consist are either ScaleTrains rivet counter units or Athearn Genesis or Genesis 2.0 units. Any other units are single units that we do not mu. I can note that generally speaking the Genesis units draw slightly less current than the ScaleTrains units, typically around 0.21 or 0.22 amps for Genesis and 0.28 amps for ScaleTrains units, running light without a train, and that would be at full speed which is not our typical running speed.) Any reasonable suggestions would be welcomed. If you think I've bought a junk introductory dcc system that needs to be replaced, instead of 16 gage wiring, then just please deliver the truth as you see it. Tell me which one you like and why. Thank you all very much. Respectfully submitted-- John |
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Post by michaele on May 25, 2023 9:24:00 GMT -8
Since I use European equipment such as Zimo, Uhlenbrock, and ESU decoders, the additional track voltage is what I think makes as much of a difference as the increased amperage. My locomotives were starving at barely 12 volts at the rail, sometimes dipping to as low as 11. And certainly the current makes a difference too. Powercab, and even an additional booster, can't supply this much voltage at the rail and is not adjustable.
The ESU can supply up to 7A and the voltage is adjustable. My track voltage is running about 17.5V now and those decoders love the increase. I can't speak for American designed decoders so I don't know if they will tolerate this much voltage, but Euro decoders handle it with ease.
No more stuttering or slowing on grades, and I can comfortably run four sound locomotives without any of the previous trouble I had when starting up a third locomotive using Powercab.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2023 9:45:38 GMT -8
Hello michaele--
I'm pretty sure our American-style decoders are not supposed to get more than 13 volts maximum, depending upon the brand. Sounds like I need to begin considering a different system. Yes, everything slows down on grades but I thought that was somewhat "normal" for HO operation. Perhaps I'm incorrect there.
Thank you.
John
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Post by jonklein611 on May 25, 2023 10:41:11 GMT -8
Hello michaele-- I'm pretty sure our American-style decoders are not supposed to get more than 13 amps maximum, depending upon the brand. Sounds like I need to begin considering a different system. Yes, everything slows down on grades but I thought that was somewhat "normal" for HO operation. Perhaps I'm incorrect there. Thank you. John This can be decoder feature specific as well. If the decoder doesn't compensate for loads correctly, you'll see slowdowns. |
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Post by Christian on May 25, 2023 11:56:47 GMT -8
NMRA conformance says 12 to 22 volts on the rail and that a decoder should tolerate 27 volts. 24 volts for n scale.
I run about 14 volts without a load. That's the output of a Digitrax Zephyr.
Amps are what cause damage. In the case of a dead short, you can weld your locomotive to the rails. Newer systems have much faster-acting circuit breakers than DCC systems of the past in order to prevent damage.
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Post by riogrande on May 25, 2023 12:36:44 GMT -8
As far as bus wire goes, 18 gauge sounds small. According to dccwiki.com/Wire_Sizes_and_SpacingHO busses should be 14 AWG or even 12 AWG for long runs. Feeders can be 18 -22 AWG. |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2023 13:17:08 GMT -8
Sorry I mis-typed.
Meant to say 13 volts not amps, and have fixed that in my post above.
The instructions with some of my locos say that if the voltage exceeds 16 to 17 volts they may be damaged. Typically the loco lights will flash if the voltage gets too high (and I haven't seen that actually occur in about 15 years). I thought the whole point of American dcc was to keep the voltage as close to 12 volts all the time as possible?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
My layout was originally constructed for plain dc operation, when dcc was just in its infancy, so that is how/why the bus wire is only 18 awg. Also, the length of bus wire is not very long. An engineer told me that increasing the gage of the wire won't help all that much regarding the actual current draw (and also that in his opinion those charts may be "overkill").
I guess the only thing I could do would be to replace the bus wire and see if anything actually improves? before replacing the system.
John
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