Has anyone speed matched Genesis 2.0 T2 units w Loksound 5?

[Deleted]

Have to ask, since folks like Brad have been so helpful with CV settings:

Has anyone successfully speed-matched any Genesis 2.0 T2 decoder units with any of the Loksound 5.0 equipped units such that they ran well together?

And IF you did, do you recall what the CV changes were?

I understand it seems most people prefer one or the other unit, but thought surely there must be some folks who operate both or multiple brands?

Thank you very much.

John

[ncrc5315]

I have done what you are asking. The way I do it is with an Accutrak II model railroad speedometer, and setup a speed table for each locomotive, using the following steps/speeds. I use 28 speed steps, speed step 1=1Mph, 2=2Mph, 3=3Mph, 4=4Mph, 5=5Mph, 6=6Mph, 7=8Mph, 8=10Mph, 9=12Mph, 10=14Mph, 11=16Mph, 12=18Mph, 13=20Mph, 14=22Mph, 15=24Mph, 16=26Mph, 17=28Mph, 18=30Mph, 19=32Mph, 20=34Mph, 21=36Mph, 22=38Mph, 23=41Mph, 24=44Mph, 25=47Mph, 26=50Mph, 27=53Mph, 28=56Mph. It takes sometime, but once done I can run any locomotive with any locomotive. This works for me, YMMV.

[cemr5396]

A friend of mine was trying to speed match his ESU and TSU2 equipped units, and eventually gave up. He was able to get them to run all the same speed without TOO much difficulty, but because the different brands treat momentum and braking differently the units would fight each other when accelerating/deccelerating. He got tired of messing with them trying to get them to cooperate and is now switching over the ESU units to Tsunami 2s.

[Deleted]

Brad--

Indeed What you are describing is basically what I've already seen. A year or two ago I attempted to speed match Bowser Loksound 5 SD40-2 units to Athearn Genesis 2.0 T2 SD90MAC-H units. I got them close on the speed range but they did indeed fight each other during acceleration and braking. That and the Bowser units didn't start moving till speed step 2, while the Athearn units are already moving at 1, and I could not get the Loksound units to move at 1. Not at all. So right off the bat they were fighting each other, regardless of Vmin, Vmid and Vmax and regardless of acceleration/deceleration settings. I inquired on the Loksound forum and they basically said program each individual speed step. Which might be helpful if I actually knew the speed curve for either one or the other make (and that is/was not available to me and my system will not readout current CV settings).

I've sorta been trying to keep an open mind, and the ST Gevo units out currently are at a better price point than engines that are coming, so I picked up one for my son (the BNSF fan). Now my question is do I try, again, to speed match T2 to Loksound 5, or do I just try to assemble like motive power sets of at least the same brand of decoder? Or do I look into Accutrak?

So far I've been trying to assemble like power sets, but the fact that ST locos are not playing well with Athearn (did not in the past for me) could result in my going almost all Athearn.

I do have one ST/Loksound SD-45 I can probably match to the new ET44C4 so that could be one power set.

Thanks for your comments all.

Switching to another dcc system could also become a consideration...

John

[cemr5396]

If you want really accurate speed matches, an Accutrak spedometer is a must. Even if only using the three points of Vmax, min, and mid, it still makes it way easier.

I am a big proponent of Tsunami 2's Dynamic Digital Exhaust, but you need really accurate speed matches if you don't want one unit to be in Notch 8 and the other still in idle because it thinks it is not 'under load' because it is being pulled on - even very lightly.

To that end I use 28 point speed curves in all of my locomotives with a top speed of 60 scale mph. I simply divided 60/28 and rounded to the nearest mile an hour to get the speed I would need at each of the 28 speed points. This is typically about half to 3/4 of the speed a model is capable of out of the box, so by slowing the engines down and adding some momentum, I get the bonus effect of really smooth operation and very nice slow speed control. After setting all 28 points with the locomotive running in forward, I turn it around and use the Reverse Trim feature to adjust the speed in reverse, if needed to make it run at the exact same speed in both directions. I do this on every individual locomotive, even those from the same run. No two are exactly the same out of the box, although a lot of my Athearn Genesis stuff is very very close. The consistency in how their stuff runs, even between different models and different production runs, is impressive. I have two Genesis GP38-2s that were produced 5 years apart that ended up having virtually identical speed tables.

Except for my Rapido engines that are basically incapable of such slow speed running, all of my other locomotives will run smoothly at less than one scale mph in speed step 1 of 128, with every speed step above that being a little less than .5 scale mph. So step 16 is 7.5 mph, step 32 is 15, 64 is 30, 96 is 45, and of course 128 is 60.

[Deleted]

Hello Brad--

Ok, more to think about.

My son of course wants to run faster than 60 smph, so I'd have to set the steps a bit differently.  (Some units on BNSF are actually geared to run above 70 mph in real life, 74 for sure, and perhaps higher than that).

I have been pleasantly surprised at how closely the Athearn, Bowser, and Atlas engines often run with each other in plain dc. It's almost as though they were planning it that way but is most likely a result of the similar gear ratios and similar motors.

John

[Mark R.]

The key to matching two different decoders is to turn off the special operating features that are unique to each decoder. BEMF should be turned off in both as well as the different brake features. Start delay on ESU and DDE on Tsunami also need to be turned off. Once these options are shut down, they are easy to match using CVs 2,3,4,5,and 6.

Mark.

[Deleted]

Won't I miss the BEMF?

I can try your suggestion out and see if it works. Thank you.

John

[Mark R.]

Mar 30, 2023 9:55:57 GMT -8 @atsf5398 said:

Won't I miss the BEMF?

I can try your suggestion out and see if it works. Thank you.

John

The BEMF is a great thing to have in a decoder as it can really smooth out the motor control. Unfortunately, the parameters may be different between manufacturers. It can still be tweaked as well, but it can be an entire process in its own .... even between identical decoders. BEMF is most beneficial at slow speeds, so when it is disabled, the start voltage (CV2) will undoubtedly need to be increased to get the engine to just start to move on speed step 1. I have mu'd a number of engines with BEMF turned on in one unit and turned off in the other, and they run perfectly together. I only turn it off completely if the motor exhibits excessive buzzing (due to a poor tolerance motor) and it is just annoying.

Mark.

[Deleted]

Thank you for explaining.

For now, not wanting to mess around too much with the CV settings, I opted for a somewhat simpler solution.  My son wanted some units that ScaleTrains makes, and I got one in so far, with two more on pre-order.

We will be able to mu ScaleTrains with ScaleTrains and Athearn with Athearn.

I may try to take the one ST SD45 and redo all the settings as described above to match Athearn, but I have not attempted that yet.

[Deleted]

Update: Subsequent to this thread, we ended up with several ScaleTrains/Loksound 5.0 units and several Genesis Tsunami 2 units.

Rather than trying to mix them, we keep ST with ST units and Athearn with Athearn. Operationally this has been the easiest solution.

It seemed as if the speed curves between the two make/decoder combinations were just way too different to try to match them up.  It was easier to just buy pairs of anything that we liked.

[Baikal]

Jun 13, 2023 17:43:05 GMT -8 @atsf5398 said:

Update: Subsequent to this thread, we ended up with several ScaleTrains/Loksound 5.0 units and several Genesis Tsunami 2 units.

Rather than trying to mix them, we keep ST with ST units and Athearn with Athearn. Operationally this has been the easiest solution.

It seemed as if the speed curves between the two make/decoder combinations were just way too different to try to match them up.  It was easier to just buy pairs of anything that we liked.

I said to check if one of the units was running in reverse, which literally an extreme case of mis-matched speeds.  You're welcome.  You shouldn't go all-caps on people trying to help.

[Deleted]

You should not make suggestions in such a manner that strongly implies the utter stupidity of the person you are attempting to "help".

I know for a fact that all these engines run in the same %#@% direction.

What you apparently fail to realize is that each engine gets broken-in properly by itself in accordance with some manufacturers' clear directions, first without a train at all at varying speeds forward and reverse, stopping and starting, and then with only very short trains, until such time as I think it's ready to even run with another loco. Kinda think I'd actually notice if one was running the wrong direction.

As I clearly stated before all the engines are running absolutely fine.  The two ST units that had bad motors have returned after warranty repair, and they run as good as the others.  They had a legitimate factory defect that has been addressed.  It wasn't something that I somehow did to them.

[Baikal]

Jun 14, 2023 5:41:50 GMT -8 @atsf5398 said:

You should not make suggestions in such a manner that strongly implies the utter stupidity of the person you are attempting to "help".

I know for a fact that all these engines run in the same %#@% direction.

What you apparently fail to realize is that each engine gets broken-in properly by itself in accordance with some manufacturers' clear directions, first without a train at all at varying speeds forward and reverse, stopping and starting, and then with only very short trains, until such time as I think it's ready to even run with another loco. Kinda think I'd actually notice if one was running the wrong direction.

As I clearly stated before all the engines are running absolutely fine.  The two ST units that had bad motors have returned after warranty repair, and they run as good as the others.  They had a legitimate factory defect that has been addressed.  It wasn't something that I somehow did to them.

You messed up by not speed matching your power before consisting.  You.  Not the people trying to help, not NCE, not the hobby shop owner.

Then when you discover your mistake, instead of a simple "thanks" you lash out again with the cursing placeholders (aka it's always someone else's fault).

I didn't fail to realize anything.  I have a 15+ year-old ProCab that works fine (because my locos are speed matched as much as possible).

Why don't you use the handy "quote" feature so people can tell who you're replying to?  If a reader isn't following the thread you appear to be standing in an empty field yelling at clouds.

[Baikal]

Mar 29, 2023 7:13:21 GMT -8 @atsf5398 said:

Have to ask, since folks like Brad have been so helpful with CV settings:

Has anyone successfully speed-matched any Genesis 2.0 T2 decoder units with any of the Loksound 5.0 equipped units such that they ran well together?

And IF you did, do you recall what the CV changes were?

I understand it seems most people prefer one or the other unit, but thought surely there must be some folks who operate both or multiple brands?

Thank you very much.

John

You are asking for "free" advice while offering nothing monetary in exchange.

By your logic, why should anyone help you?  (I don't subscribe to that, btw)