Are you shying away from buying high-end locomotives?

[lars]

Some other threads had some discussion on the time that can be spent on DCC programming and the difficulty in working on locomotives that are packed with wiring from class lights, ground lights, etc.  While we’ve discussed the challenges of keeping fully-featured locomotives running, is anyone changing their purchasing decisions to shy away from high end models?  Is that decision based on ease of operating or servicing or price?

I threw the poll up to see what people consider their ‘sweet spot.’  For reference consider the levels of detail and features similar to Genesis 2.0 / ST Rivet Counter; Genesis 1.0, Proto or similar, missing many of the current high-end features; or the RTR / Operator / Mainline level with fewer added details.

[hudsonyard]

As far as things like ground lights go, if the unit has it then fine, but i'm not about to start drilling through the frame of 15 year old C420s to add them.

[cemr5396]

If a prototype that I want comes out in model form with "all the bells and whistles", literally, that is fine by me.

On the other hand, I have no issue with taking a Walthers Mainline or Athearn RTR unit and dressing it up to suit my needs. Although in most cases I do not go quite as far as on a factory 'Genesis 2.0' level unit.

I'm pretty much happy with headlights and ditch lights that work. Working number boards, class lights, ground/step lights, etc are nice to have but I've never added them to a unit I built myself. I did add working nose marker lights to an ex-LMS CN C40-8W 'Blue Devil' I did, but that was no harder than doing the headlights or ditchlights.

[edwardsutorik]

What they said, pretty much.


Ed

[fr8kar]

I've always been the build it from the ground up guy and I've never shied away from cutting up shells or 3D printing frames to get what I want. I've always been satisfied with adding my own silent decoders and making my own LED/fiber optic lights. But since COVID-19 came around my job has changed so that I have less and less free time. Over the past 3 years the locomotives I've purchased have almost all been the fully maxed out sound versions and I've got several more like that reserved. When the weekend comes that I can play Free-mo I'm OK with plopping these newer locomotives on the rail and running. Of course I'll bring the older models I've built, too. But until things change in my life this is what I'm stuck with. It doesn't hurt that some models I've wanted for a long time have become available to me during a time I can easily afford them, though I sure do miss my bench time.

[csxt8400]

All well said points. I will add that the feel of the model is my sweet spot. I can utilize certain lower detailed things that nail dimensions and artwork. Conversely, I certainly enjoy a full kitted out piece of equipment with the fidelity and fine scale tooling.

Where things become problematic for me is when all the details are there, but rendered in a way that doesnt help the overall feel. Lit numberboards arent cool to me when they are mis-shaped, see-through walkways dont help when they are too shallow. Stuff like that. In which case I would take solid steps and unlit boards if the appearance is closer to the real thing.

[rmcroadster]

I can build better than I can buy, so I do.
Matthew

[cemr5396]

May 5, 2023 16:27:48 GMT -8 csxt8400 said:

All well said points. I will add that the feel of the model is my sweet spot. I can utilize certain lower detailed things that nail dimensions and artwork. Conversely, I certainly enjoy a full kitted out piece of equipment with the fidelity and fine scale tooling.

Where things become problematic for me is when all the details are there, but rendered in a way that doesnt help the overall feel. Lit numberboards arent cool to me when they are mis-shaped, see-through walkways dont help when they are too shallow. Stuff like that. In which case I would take solid steps and unlit boards if the appearance is closer to the real thing.

100%.

Looking right is more important than 'being' right. Some things just don't scale well.

People running their locos around with number boards and ground lights as bright as the headlight is a perfect example, and a pet peeve of mine. Especially when I know they made them brighter than what the factory settings are. They almost always say "but i Want TO sEe tHeM" - to which I reply "then turn the lights in your layout room off, cause the only time you see them in real life is at night".

[Mr. Trainiac]

If I shy away from anything, it's the prices. I feel like I'm in a bit of a weird place. I balk at the prices of modern locomotives, but at the same time I hold my collection to a high standard. My philosophy is 'nice models but fewer models'. I'd rather buy one or two good models rather than a bunch of 'train show junk' or 'fleet-building' models.

Most of my latest locomotive or 'big' purchases have actually been used models. I'm trying to balance RTR vs kitbashing and detailing. Superdetailing a more basic model isn't cost-effective these days, but it does lengthen hobby time per purchase. The fun and novelty of a new RTR model wears off quick; at least with a project you get a few weeks of work and the added pride in the completed model.

[Deleted]

I have a 16-year old son, who likes all the class lights, ground lights, ditch lights, flashing beacons, sound, etc. Obviously his generation is all about the toys and features on a loco. He loves the ScaleTrains Gevos with all their ground lights, walkway lights, etc.

We just picked up the Athearn Genesis 2.0 CN Heritage GTW unit in Blue and Morency Orange. We did not know that CN uses a special DPU lighting mode with red class lights (similar to Conrail in the past and some others). Anyway, he's in love with the unit.

He also likes the ScaleTrains ATSF SD45 with the changeable class lights (red, green, and clear).

So I had to vote for Genesis 2.0 level.

That said, a motor failure is a motor failure, and when motors are failing, the detailing and sounds kinda take a back seat to an engine being able to run.

Also, my son will accept an Athearn Roundhouse level diesel when it is the only way to get something that he wants, so you could say we will go to both ends of the spectrum, but even the Roundhouse diesels now can come with motor only decoders for those who are committed to dcc.

Our modeling philosophy is to have the locos we want, but we still have less locos than most people.  Right now we have 19 engines total between the two of us, with 6 on pre-order.  I also purge freight cars that maybe don't belong or that my son really doesn't like for whatever cash I am able to net.

[lars]

What are people doing when you want a different decoder brand? Buying a fully-featured DCC model and swapping out decoders or buying DCC ready, installing your own decoder and losing out on some of the lighting features?

I haven’t followed prices lately. Is the spread between DC and DCC increasing in to reflect the added features?

[riogrande]

May 5, 2023 20:07:22 GMT -8 @atsf5398 said:

I have a 16-year old son, who likes

I imagine a lot is going to change in few years. He'll go to college, job hunt, probably marriage and kids. I remember model railroading at that point was major on hold for years. For you, you'll more into your angle. I dabbled in N scale during my college years and after due to little to no space.

[michaele]

There are not a lot of European brand locomotives that are not high-end models. Most are extremely detailed according to the prototype either with or without sound. PIKO does make a small entry level line, but not many hobby shops carry a lot of their products. Europeans want that detail and will gladly pay for something they see on the rails every day in their cities, towns, and villages.

Roco, PIKO, Bemo, Märklin, TRIX, Brawa, ACME, Sud-Express, ESU, and other brands are all very nice models, excellent running characteristics, perfect paint, and more or less full featured with lights, sound, smoke for steam, operating pans for some, and other details.

If you are going down the European rabbit hole you have to be prepared for the cost. Not many are cheap, but some of the shops in Germany have sales from time to time.

When you weigh the prices in Europe for the same thing offered in the US, even with shipping, you always come out ahead buying from Europe. US retailers that actually do carry European brands jack up their prices considerably. I just don't buy from Euro shops in the States unless I need small parts like catenary, signals, vehicles, and such.

[Deleted]

Thank you, Jim--

What is surprising is that Johnny was big time into video games for years, and only now at 16 is once again really interested in trains (always had a few but didn't run them). Now he's running them all the time and playing less video games, which I consider to be a small victory. He's at least using the trains. The sad thing is I sold off some trains that I had owned a couple years ago, that now he would have wanted, and then ended up replacing basically the exact same models (BNSF Gevos). Even asked him a couple years ago and he doesn't remember that then he told me he didn't need those Gevos.

Some good questions have been asked on this thread, particularly by lars and others:

I think the price spread between fully featured dcc and dc is maintaining the same difference or slightly decreasing? Sometimes it can be as little as $80 difference in ready-to-run locos. Sometimes it is closer to $100. I guess it depends upon the model and the features involved. Advanced lighting features probably increase the spread. On the lower end, an Athearn Roundhouse GP38-2, the old model from when I was in high school, at $144 street price with dcc is a deal--but that's no sound--and the base price without the dcc at all is maybe only $50 less actual street price. So, the best answer is it depends.

I have always bought the loco that I wanted to have based upon my chosen railroad and particular model era. IF the loco available had sound and dcc and cool lights, great. If the loco available to me was plain dc and that's all I could choose from, or I was being budget-conscious at that time, then so be it--I buy them too.

Recently I've been having motor failures in one brand that is not known for having them. The opportunity to buy an older version of that brand's Gevo, plain dc, but with a motor that I know isn't going to fail right away, came up, so I just bought a brand new couple years old Gevo off evilbay, that had been displayed only. Seller was absolutely correct and the model was cosmetically perfect, so for me that was a win--to get one modern unit that I know isn't going to fail.

Regarding mixing of decoders:  I specifically lack high end soldering equipment and expertise soldering to these delicate, expensive electronics.  That means I buy the best engines I can with what most people say is the best decoder I can get.  Some of those engines have Loksound 5.0 and some of those engines have Tsunami 2.  I live with what I can get that is factory installed, assuming that in most cases it will be the most cost-effective option.

My local store has a good tech who will install decoders and speakers, and they've made it clear that the most cost-effective option is to buy the factory sound and dcc, because till that tech installs better speakers than some use, and his preferred dcc decoder, it will cost me more than $150 just for the parts, plus additional for his labor.  So if you can, buying factory installed is probably the most cost-effective option unless you are very confident in your own installation abilities.  It will now cost more money just for aftermarket parts especially if is one is going to be picky about sound quality.  (As street price approaches $275/300 I am more picky about lots of things).

The next question is how do you mix Loksound 5.0 with Tsunami 2 or other engines?  I just do not.  They are too different.  I'm told by others on these forums that one CAN speed match them if you buy the speed readout device and if you disable back emf and other brand specific features, and if you then speed match each individual speed step--then you can do it.  Practically speaking I have not wanted to invest money in LokProgrammer and other aftermarket items.

My simpleton's solution is simply to run Loksound with Loksound units and Tsunami 2 with Tsunami 2 units.  It's been simple and cheap-er, but most certainly will not work for everyone.  Then one can argue that I'm limiting myself and not using dcc as it is intended.

My personal experience(s) with Loksound have been absolutely terrible, and I do not like Loksound, particularly their manuals which are lacking and Atlas's manuals which are sadly lacking, and apparently there are things I definitely do not understand about how Loksound is supposed to function.  That said, a friend of mine who is really excellent just became their US sales manager for ESU, so there's hope things will be better in the future.

As always, YMMV.

John

[Christian]

I don't buy high-end locomotives because of the cost. No other reason - I can't afford them. Catching a "deal" on a Walthers Mainline or an Athearn RTR is affordable If I limit myself. On the other hand, I don't blink at a Tangent freight car—one at a time.

[nsc39d8]

While I consider myself a RPM type modeler the question has become how will I finish everything now in detailing everything to RPM levels. So for me I started going to a lower detailing level for some of my locos and rolling stock.
If it is just going to be a "layout" model stock might be good. Loco wise my roster is about full. I have about 5 Kato's to finish with high hoods for Southern/NW/NS. My last purchase was the Walthers SD45 in NW with the high/low brakes since it was the first time offered, this was a DCC ready loco. I cannot see replacing my P2K GP30's with Scaletrains or BLI. I have a preorder in for a Rapido M420 in Delaware Lackawanna that will have sound.

Now I have started to turn away from sound on some locos. Don't get me wrong but as I age my hearing has declined and sometime on my large 20 by 40 layout it all becomes just "noise". While I like the details like class lights and ground lights as someone else said I won't be doing these on my older or other locos I may build in the future. If it come from the factory with those details it is wonderful.

Another big thing is I need to work more on ballasting and scenery now than building locos and cars. I am like Christian, I am limiting myself for now.

[alexandrianick]

A fourth option: diminishing return on the outlay for what I get.

[cn2240]

My vote goes to Genesis 2.0/Rivet Counter models.

Over the past year, I overhauled most of locomotive roster and retired all my Athearn BB, RTR and non-LED equipped Genesis locomotives among other models. The replacements were mainly Genesis 2.0 and Rivet Counter models since I personally love seeing ground lights and having lit number boards is also a must unless I'm looking for something like a GP38-2W where I will make an exception to get an LED-equipped Genesis model.

My original fleet was not really mine but one that was dictated by my father who often blocked me from getting CN models because they all "looked the same". So I was also moving towards a fleet which would consist mostly of CN models and as such, I got rid of certain railroads such as UP, BNSF, KCS, CSX, and Amtrak (which I didn't really want anyways) and replaced them with CN locomotives. Given that I've always wanted a CN fleet, I decided to splurge on getting the most detailed models.

With that being said, the Aurora SD60F is probably the one model where I would vote for Genesis 1.0. That model has such a noisy motor, disappointing pulling power, etc so if there was model that I regret purchasing, if would have to be that one. The lighting is probably the best of my entire fleet but it's brought down by just about everything else.

[riogrande]

May 6, 2023 5:04:00 GMT -8 lars said:

What are people doing when you want a different decoder brand? Buying a fully-featured DCC model and swapping out decoders or buying DCC ready, installing your own decoder and losing out on some of the lighting features?

I haven’t followed prices lately. Is the spread between DC and DCC increasing in to reflect the added features?

Because I have so many loco that are DC ready, I'm trying to buy as many DCC sound locos as I can manage. I may have to match brands for MU compatibility purposes. Just about all of my ScaleTrains locos are factory equipped or have Lokpilot decoders to drop in. I purchased extra LokPilot decoders for the DCC ready locos that will run with other brands that came with ESU Lok5 sound.

[sd80mac]

Not shying away, but definitely being more selective in what I purchase. Just can't stomach over $1,000 for all 3 or 4 road numbers of whatever new model it is that I want. When you could get 3 or even 4 models for around $500, it was a different story. I pre-ordered 2 of the new ST Rivet Counter CRQ SD40-2s last week and even at their discounted price its going to be $600 for 2 models with sound. I'm only doing that because I have been waiting for high end Quality SD40-2s forever and will likely have to sell off a few pieces from my collection to be able to pay for them.

[riogrande]

May 6, 2023 5:53:04 GMT -8 @atsf5398 said:

Thank you, Jim--

What is surprising is that Johnny was big time into video games for years, and only now at 16 is once again really interested in trains (always had a few but didn't run them). Now he's running them all the time and playing less video games, which I consider to be a small victory.

So many dads want their sons to follow their hobby. I had only daughter and it's a very rare bird indeed when women get into trains. I did play video games with her and dungeons and dragons and she's stayed with those hobbies since finishing her biomedical engineering degree and going to work for Lockheed Martin and getting married. It seems more often than not, son's take a different path. My sister's boy was into trains as a teen and he's well out of college and a high school teacher; no mention of trains for a long time. But only time will tell in the long run.

The next question is how do you mix Loksound 5.0 with Tsunami 2 or other engines?  I just do not.  They are too different.  I'm told by others on these forums that one CAN speed match them if you buy the speed readout device and if you disable back emf and other brand specific features, and if you then speed match each individual speed step--then you can do it.  Practically speaking I have not wanted to invest money in LokProgrammer and other aftermarket items.

My simpleton's solution is simply to run Loksound with Loksound units and Tsunami 2 with Tsunami 2 units.  It's been simple and cheap-er, but most certainly will not work for everyone.  Then one can argue that I'm limiting myself and not using dcc as it is intended.

My personal experience(s) with Loksound have been absolutely terrible, and I do not like Loksound, particularly their manuals which are lacking and Atlas's manuals which are sadly lacking, and apparently there are things I definitely do not understand about how Loksound is supposed to function.  That said, a friend of mine who is really excellent just became their US sales manager for ESU, so there's hope things will be better in the future.

As always, YMMV.

John

I haven't tried it but people report if they turn off certain features, they can get ESU and Soundtrax decoders to work together in MU consists, for what it's worth. Hopefully ESU will become customer friendly after losing Herman.

[michaele]

I'm glad double heading in Europe is the exception rather than the rule. I'd be priced right out of the hobby.

[riogrande]

May 6, 2023 6:12:21 GMT -8 Christian said:

I don't buy high-end locomotives because of the cost. No other reason - I can't afford them. Catching a "deal" on a Walthers Mainline or an Athearn RTR is affordable If I limit myself. On the other hand, I don't blink at a Tangent freight car—one at a time.

Retirement and fixed income isn't very far off for me either. So I'll be in that boat before long. I'm sure I'll "rationalizing my fleet" and selling items if I really want to buy something "high-end" when that time comes. As it is, try to go through my stuff regularly and cull to sell items.

[riogrande]

May 6, 2023 7:32:38 GMT -8 michaele said:

I'm glad double heading in Europe is the exception rather than the rule. I'd be priced right out of the hobby.

I remember back in the day looking at prices for European loco's and noting that they were 2 to 3 times as expensive as US counterparts. Maybe US loco's have somewhat caught up during the past 10+ years.

That said, I was over in northern England and visited a model RR club and in the large loft of an industrial building, the club had quite a bit of space and had multiple layouts. The majority of trains were US prototypes and a number of them traveled to the US to railfan as well. I discovered that per capita, model railroading is very popular in England and despite the lack of space compared to the US as well.

[Frank]

May 6, 2023 7:32:19 GMT -8 riogrande said:

So many dads want their sons to follow their hobby. I had only daughter and it's a very rare bird indeed when women get into trains. I did play video games with her and dungeons and dragons and she's stayed with those hobbies since finishing her biomedical engineering degree and going to work for Lockheed Martin and getting married. It seems more often than not, son's take a different path. My sister's boy was into trains as a teen and he's well out of college and a high school teacher; no mention of trains for a long time. But only time will tell in the long run.

This is very true and my dad tried to get me into his hobbies with mixed results. But one thing he did do - and you did too it sounds like - is support hobbies and interests even if he did not share in them fully. My folks never did understand why I was into trains to begin with, but that didn’t stop my dad from building a layout for me to run them on. Even if I didn’t end up sticking with it I think that was a very good parenting strategy. Otherwise I feel like one would grow up thinking extracurricular interests or hobbies are a bad thing. Maybe that is why we have many young adults who simply do not have hobbies at all.

[michaele]

Model railroading is much more popular in Europe and the UK than it is here. Most towns and cities have at least one train shop, if not several. In spite of the constrained available space for model railroads in most homes and apartments, many are able to squeeze in quite elaborate layouts.

[wmrdgfan]

There are 2 different questions being asked here. Yes, I want all the bells and whistles, but at the same time I am shying away from some of those models because of price. Just cannot afford it.

[TBird1958]

I own too many locomotives already and happily there have many good models released of what I've needed so at this point I can at least be selective about what I would want to add to my roster. Hopefully there are some era correct SD45s and GP30s in the future as I'd certainly be in for some, meantime there's lots of already purchased freight cars to enjoy working on and if nothing else I prefer them as modeling projects. Regarding the DCC I tend towards keeping it simple, no sound is fine by me, correctly functioning headlights being most important, I have to say that I was quite dissatisfied with the decoders that Scaletrains provided for my SD40T-2s, all have failed, spoiling otherwise nice locomotives, the models do not run so I'll replace them with a simpler 6 function 21 pin from Digitrax for the sake of reliability.

[upcsx]

I like Rivet counter Scale Trains and Genesis locomotives I don't do DCC and sound but if they are DCC ready that is ok with me.

[lvrr325]

I grew up with Athearn blue box as the high end of the scale, maybe an Atlas/Roco or two. I don't mind all the features of new engines but a basic headlight and number boards is enough for me. I don't need the sound, either.

I've bought what could be considered high end, Bowser's latest Centuries, because they're the only models out there and it's much easier to buy one finished. It's a big gamble whether or not you'll find them used, although I did score the one road number from a previous run that I didn't have at a show in March.