Future 611 excursions

[bnsf971]

The Virginia Museum of Transportation vmt.org/ is conducting a study to see if the N&W J they have stuffed and mounted can be restored for excursions.
While I can't vouch for 1218, I know when NS canceled their steam program, they donated the flues and tubes, as well as any other parts they had for 611 back to the museum. 611 was due for flue and boiler work at the time, but all the major parts should be on hand. If NS did as good a job storing 611 as I think they did, the survey should find it to be in good condition.
As with any museum or non-profit, they are always looking for volunteers and donations.

[Deleted]

You have to wish them luck, but reality is they've got a really steep slope to climb.

Its not mentioned who'll do the boiler work, but it recently took years for the Milwaukee Road 261 group to get the 10 year boiler work done on their locomotive.....and they'd already rebuilt the 261 once before. My museum, the Illinois Railway Museum, has been working on the Frisco decapod for over a decade. IRM's roadblock has been lack of qualified volunteers and money. Lots of people in the beginning jump on the band wagon, but reality is they don't know which end of the screwdriver to use and quickly disappear as fast as they appeared! As far as money, its the same, you have the initial rush and then the flow of cash becomes a trickle at best.

Since the 611 is a celebrity steam locomotive, finding money and people should be easier. But the experiences of the 261 group should serve as a blue print. Just because the engine is well known doesn't mean it still isn't going to cost tons of money to get operational.

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

The answer for all those projects is mostly $$$$

PM 1225 here in MI is now over 2 years in major overhaul and still trying to get more money to finish the job.

I hope the 611 project succeeds.

Maybe someone needs to win the Mega Millions lottery.

[calzephyr]

Mar 1, 2013 4:36:00 GMT -8 bnsf971 said:

The Virginia Museum of Transportation vmt.org/ is conducting a study to see if the N&W J they have stuffed and mounted can be restored for excursions.
While I can't vouch for 1218, I know when NS canceled their steam program, they donated the flues and tubes, as well as any other parts they had for 611 back to the museum. 611 was due for flue and boiler work at the time, but all the major parts should be on hand. If NS did as good a job storing 611 as I think they did, the survey should find it to be in good condition.
As with any museum or non-profit, they are always looking for volunteers and donations.

It is amazing to me that a complete rebuild now takes up to two years. This work was done in four to five days in the back shop, but that was done by three crews working around the clock on any locomotive in the back shop.
Manpower and money could do the job in less than a month if that was available today.

On vacation, I visited Roanolk in August of 1956 and watched a J come into town on a train in the afternoon period. We were out to Shaffers Crossing later that day and saw the same J locomotive with the main cylinder pistons removed for some kind of check. This was a fix for some problem with the rings or cylinder and the locomotive was still under steam. It was amazing what could be done in such a short time.
That is a J in the distance coming into the Shaffers Crossing facility while my dad is watching the action with two K class locos in the picture also.

It was an amazing place to visit.

Larry

[Deleted]

Mar 1, 2013 11:32:10 GMT -8 calzephyr said:

It is amazing to me that a complete rebuild now takes up to two years. This work was done in four to five days in the back shop, but that was done by three crews working around the clock on any locomotive in the back shop.

Larry

The guys in the back shop knew what they were doing, every last one of them. On a restoration today, you hope you have two people that know what they are doing. More than likely, you'll have one person trying to direct the project. That person will have a couple of volunteers settle in and be the back bone of the restoration. If you have any restoration that has more than four or five dedicated people you are miles ahead.

The handful that are working on the project week after week, must also supervise the "enthusiastic" that have good intentions, but some of these folks are technically useless. This really slows the progress at times. But, the "enthusiastic" also many times donate some of the Benjamins needed to complete the project.

I know IRM has had to contract out some of the work on the Frisco 2-10-0 to certified professionals. FRA certification of a steam locomotive boiler is very extensive and expensive. 99% of the volunteers that want to help are only qualified to do some of the cosmetic work. Even on the cosmetics, safety precautions dictate experience.

[calzephyr]

Mar 1, 2013 12:55:23 GMT -8 @australianterrier said:

Mar 1, 2013 11:32:10 GMT -8 calzephyr said:

It is amazing to me that a complete rebuild now takes up to two years. This work was done in four to five days in the back shop, but that was done by three crews working around the clock on any locomotive in the back shop.

Larry

The guys in the back shop knew what they were doing, every last one of them. On a restoration today, you hope you have two people that know what they are doing. More than likely, you'll have one person trying to direct the project. That person will have a couple of volunteers settle in and be the back bone of the restoration. If you have any restoration that has more than four or five dedicated people you are miles ahead.

The handful that are working on the project week after week, must also supervise the "enthusiastic" that have good intentions, but some of these folks are technically useless. This really slows the progress at times. But, the "enthusiastic" also many times donate some of the Benjamins needed to complete the project.

I know IRM has had to contract out some of the work on the Frisco 2-10-0 to certified professionals. FRA certification of a steam locomotive boiler is very extensive and expensive. 99% of the volunteers that want to help are only qualified to do some of the cosmetic work. Even on the cosmetics, safety precautions dictate experience.

Jim

Yes, it is hard to get two or three experienced steam workers working on a project along with the proper tools to do the work. Those Roanoke back shops could build a new locomotive in 21 days.
All you needed was a work order and the appliances and castings. They rolled the metal and formed their own boilers at Roanoke also if I remember correctly.

Larry

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

You just need a few guys to fix it quick:

[calzephyr]

Mar 3, 2013 6:47:41 GMT -8 kentuckysouthernrwy said:

You just need a few guys to fix it quick:

In one of my Illinois Central books, there is a picture much like this scene of a 2700 series 2-10-2 where the shop crew almost completely hid the locomotive posing on it. It was the last one shopped at that location and the amount of men in that scene was amazing.
Larry

[Spikre]

;D
heard today that the 611 will be Rebuilt.
not sure how long this process will take,but it is set to happen.
just hope it happens in my lifetime.
Spikre

[calzephyr]

Mar 24, 2013 20:20:19 GMT -8 Spikre said:

;D
heard today that the 611 will be Rebuilt.
not sure how long this process will take,but it is set to happen.
just hope it happens in my lifetime.
Spikre

That is great news!!! I hope it happens'

Larry

[Deleted]

Mar 24, 2013 20:20:19 GMT -8 Spikre said:

;D
heard today that the 611 will be Rebuilt.
not sure how long this process will take,but it is set to happen.
just hope it happens in my lifetime.
Spikre

Hmmmmmm I just checked the Fire Up 611 organization site and they have made no formal announcement. According to a current newspaper article link on the 611 site, the group is still studying the feasibility and cost of the rebuild.

[Spikre]

Jim,
consider that Richmond Virginny is a lot closer to Roanoke than Your location.
now there are at least 2 ideas that come to mind:
1- someone here has Inside Info that hasnt been released yet.
its posisible with the intrest in the 611 that there are Inside Contacts.
2- they are reading the survey info wrong.its possible they are jumping to conclusions.
it has happened before,and will happen again.
but overall the High Intrest in the 611 and N&W here would think they are really on top of things.
even though NS is 25 + years old,N&W is still #-1 here by a very large margin.
but Time will tell ??
Spikre

[Deleted]

It will be interesting to see the estimates of the amount of money needed to do the rebuilding.

There is a plus, to restoring famous rolling stock. You are more likely to get significant donations.

Even as famous as the Nebraska Zephyr is at the Illinois Railway Museum. The piece of rolling stock with the largest amount of money in its restricted fund as Santa Fe 4-8-4 #2903. The 2903 is the famous Northern that was displayed at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry since 1961. Even though it cost IRM $150,000 to move it from MSI to the Illinois Central mainline, that money and whole bunch more has been donated.

The money in 2903's restricted account should or is close to paying for a near complete cosmetic restoration of the locomotive.

[Brakie]

Don't overlook the fact those roundhouse workers didn't work on the same engine some was just molders,tool & die makers or helpers(laborers).

A roundhouse was a small repair shop that utilized a lot of different crafts that had a fully stocked supply room at their disposal.

A hard fact that help repair steam locomotives quickly and also help doom them in the process..

[jamesbrodie67281]

I have an 0 gauge model of the class J at the moment in brass finish. Your guidance please kind sirs. Who does a set of decals for this class of engine and what shade of 'red' is used for the engine and tender broad stripe and the edge lining on this stripe is it yellow or gold. Last question who does spare parts for this model...ie..one loco brake block and hanger and light glasses for the headlamp and back up tender light.
In anticipation thank you all...Jim.

[Deleted]

Apr 18, 2013 0:17:43 GMT -8 jamesbrodie67281 said:

I have an 0 gauge model of the class J at the moment in brass finish. Your guidance please kind sirs. Who does a set of decals for this class of engine and what shade of 'red' is used for the engine and tender broad stripe and the edge lining on this stripe is it yellow or gold. Last question who does spare parts for this model...ie..one loco brake block and hanger and light glasses for the headlamp and back up tender light.
In anticipation thank you all...Jim.

Microscale makes N&W steam decals. The set does not include the stripes. They should match the lettering.

First, the red band is NOT Tuscan. It is N&W's take on tuscan, more commonly known to N&W modelers and historians as N&W Red. Which leads to the next question.

What era J are you modeling? N&W red of the pre-N&W blue era is different from N&W red of the J-class 611 excursion era. Again, this is according to members in the N&WHS. The stripes and lettering of the "as-built" to dieselization of N&W passenger service is different from that applied to 611 in excursion service.

If you want some no muss, no fuss paint, there is Scalecoat N&W red. According to N&W modelers it may not be 100% accurate to either pre-blue or excursion red, but for many its close enough.

For steam locomotive parts in O-scale, I'd start with Precision Scale.

[jamesbrodie67281]

Kind Sirs,
The model is by Sam Hong SA.
My info was being gleaned from the book American Trains and locomotives illustrated..Wegman..
Page 134-5-6 and the train referred to is the Powhatan Arrow which was introduced in 1946 but I thank both of you for your help and guidance.
My era is 1935 to 1955. Until I can build up a rake of streamlined stock I have seven Atlas clerestory roofed coaches. I'll quietly slip in a s/l coach into the consist as and when.
thanks again.
jim brodie

[calzephyr]

Tuscan Red Paint by the Norfolk and Western Historical Society

This subject gets flogged every year or so with no satisfactory conclusion because no definitive data exists to resolve the debate. There is one thing on which N&W modelers agree: there is currently no commercial paint that accurately matches "N&W Tuscan Red" when new at the factory. Of course, which Tuscan Red are we talking about? That on passenger cars, that on the J's and K's, that on the Red Birds, on the excursion cars, etc., etc.

Many modelers have developed mixes of commercial paints which they believe are close enough to their eyes to represent they saw or see in photos. Those mixes have appeared here and in other publications. The best that anyone has been able to say is that the mix looks close to them.

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It seems that until the mid-50's, passenger cars faded to somewhat of a "tomato-soup" red.

Here's one I used once, and was reasonably happy. I use ModelFlex by Badger on plastic, as it goes on nicely and is useable without thinning in an airbrush. I am using a mixture of:
•1 part Milwaukee Rd Maroon
•2 parts SP Daylight Red

If I get it a little different next time, so what? All cars fade and oxidize, so variations make it more prototypical.

Mike Rector

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I've mixed acrylic paints before (Pactra when it was available), but the latest one I thought worked out reasonably well was a gloss black basecoat with a topcoat of Polly Scale acrylic Lehigh Valley Cornell Red. After completely dry, I use glosscote over the top to give it a glossy finish. It worked well for me and seemed to closely match other cars that I painted with a mix of paints no longer available. I've used those for NW excursion models and NS business cars. I can't vouch for color accuracy other than it seems to match other models I've seen and works for me compared to various photos I've seen.

Phil Miller

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I agree with you about the Scalecoat II Tuscan red. I think it is the best N&W color match right out of the bottle. I used it to paint my S-1 sleeper. The original Scalecoat was not bad either. I painted a Pennsy car with it, and it looked too warm and rich to be Pennsy.

Rick Morrison

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Old Red

"Old Red" was used until around 1958. This had a much higher red content than the present red AND included a metallic particle suspended in the paint. There were a number of manufacturesr who supplied this paint to the railroad including Dupont and Dolphin Paints of Toledo, OH. Probably the closest matches are in automotive colors: Either Sherwin Williams or Martin Seynour 1975 Chrysler Vintage Red. I believe the Martin Seynour number is: 99P-2297.

In checking with a local model painter, he indicates that he used Model Felx "Milwaukee Road red" with a small amount of silver added to simulate the metallic particles.

New Red

"New Red" tended to have a purple tint to it! When #611 was painted for excursion service, New Red was used. The only automotive numbers I have been able to come up with are Dupont numbers. Pre-1975, the number was 181-24899 , "Tuscan red". Post-1975, the number is 44106, "Dark Red Metallic Enamel". I do not know how to match this with model colors.

Jim Gillum

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So if you pick a Red that is more red than PRR Tuscan you would really be OK. I like Scalecoat N&W Red or Scalecoat #14 Pennsylvania Caboose (cabin car) red. As I said once before the last time the Society went through this discussion and debate: Pick the "N&W Red" you like Be Happy!!!

Ed Painter