Smoke Unit for Lionel HO Challenger

[mvlandsw]

Does anyone have any experience with installing the Seuthe #10 smoke generator recommended in the Lionel manual?

Can it be turned on and off with a DCC function key?

Please no discussion on the merits of smoke. I personally don't like it, but a friend wants it in his engine.

Mark Vinski

[bnsf971]

It depends on the decoder, and whether it has an output that can handle the current of a smoke unit. What is the current draw of the smoke unit, and what is the rated output of the function on the decoder?

[Gino Damen]

Hi,

Specifications tell: 10-16V and 130mA. That is within the limit of most function outputs. Most are rated at 250mA each. You do need to watch the total amount of current the decoder has the deliver.

[nomads]

I have an Athearn Challenger, into which I fitted two smoke units. Disclaimer, I never run smoke due to the health considerations, but at the time of purchase wanted that feature.
At first the unit worked OK. Then strangely failed. The two smoke units would only occasionally emit one or two smoke rings?
I’m electrically qualified, so I strip the loco down again and spent ages trying to solve it. Then one day later it hit me like a bolt out of the blue. Smoke units require a DC voltage to heat the element. The DCC waveform isn’t supplying sufficient constant heating energy. The solution is to run a DC loco address along with the loco’s DCC address. This provides a constant DC voltage for the heater elements.

[edwardsutorik]

I think there's more to it than that. If there's enough energy in the waveform to turn a motor, I think there's also enough to heat a resistive element.

Note that resistors can be used in circuits with non-DC waveforms. I've got me a 1500W resistor that runs on non-DC, and heats a room nicely. And it plugs into the wall.


Ed

[jonklein611]

Jan 19, 2024 6:29:59 GMT -8 nomads said:

I have an Athearn Challenger, into which I fitted two smoke units. Disclaimer, I never run smoke due to the health considerations, but at the time of purchase wanted that feature.
At first the unit worked OK. Then strangely failed. The two smoke units would only occasionally emit one or two smoke rings?
I’m electrically qualified, so I strip the loco down again and spent ages trying to solve it. Then one day later it hit me like a bolt out of the blue. Smoke units require a DC voltage to heat the element. The DCC waveform isn’t supplying sufficient constant heating energy. The solution is to run a DC loco address along with the loco’s DCC address. This provides a constant DC voltage for the heater elements.

If the smoke unit is tied to an output of the decoder, it should be getting DC anyways.


Seuthe says their unit can be run on AC or DC:

seuthe-dampf.de/spur-h0/

Article no. 10

HO gauge plug-in steam generator 10 - 16 V direct or alternating voltage, for prepared locomotives from Märklin, Fleischmann, Roco, Lilliput

As it's a QSI decoder, the smoke generator is tied to some output. This means you should be able to program the output to a function button.

qsindustries.com/manuals/full%20dcc%20manual.pdf

On modern decoders, even those features that do require external wires, such as lights and smoke generators, are not necessarily “hardwired” to any particular Output. Outputs are now virtual and can be connected internally by firmware in the Quantum microprocessor to any physical driver, such as a power output for a lamp or a controller for a smoke generator. The connection between a virtual output and a physical feature is called a control port or simply “port”. For consistency with NMRA definitions, virtual outputs are called simply “outputs”.

[mvlandsw]

The HO Lionel Challenger has a plug for a smoke unit which is connected directly to the track. There is no connection to the QSI decoder and no on-off switch.
I wonder if the Seuthe smoke units can survive being powered continuously if the smoke fluid runs out.

   I've been considering installing a motor only decoder on a different address to control the smoke units. This should allow varying the smoke intensity or turning the units off if desired.

[nomads]

The Athearn smoke units are also directly connected across the track, if I recall correctly, so are not driven by the decoder. I agree that in theory I too would have thought the DCC signal has enough power behind it, but in reality it is such a complex waveform that it doesn’t heat a resistive element as easily as a pure DC model train power supply/controller. The digital waveform must by definition have less area beneath the waveform than DC, or technically known as area beneath the curve, so less V squared divided by R = less Power. I also believe from experience that many home DCC systems have low track voltages, so may only provide something in the region of 10-12 volts, when ideally the smoke units like something higher. They were conceived for DC originally!

They do get a red glow when there is no oil to burn.

Just adding to the discussion from my experience, perhaps this thread needs someone else with experience of the subject?

[edwardsutorik]

Jan 20, 2024 11:15:31 GMT -8 nomads said:

The Athearn smoke units are also directly connected across the track, if I recall correctly, so are not driven by the decoder. I agree that in theory I too would have thought the DCC signal has enough power behind it, but in reality it is such a complex waveform that it doesn’t heat a resistive element as easily as a pure DC model train power supply/controller.

Actually, it does. Note that resistors have exactly the same value whether they are conducting DC or 30,000 cps (Hertz was a great guy, I'm sure, but I'll stick with old-school). So clearly the shape of the waveform does not effect the resistance. For square waves, see Fourier Tansform.

Also, I believe most, or even all, model train power supplies do NOT output pure DC. They are mostly forms of "pulsed" DC, obtained by either chopping the voltage output curve, or creating square waves quite similar to DCC wave shapes.

The digital waveform must by definition have less area beneath the waveform than DC, or technically known as area beneath the curve, so less V squared divided by R = less Power.

Quite true, if you are indeed using a DC source where the voltage is set at the maximum value of the DCC waveform. But most people would not run their trains at that peak DCC voltage. Below a certain point, the DCC waveform transmits more energy.

I also believe from experience that many home DCC systems have low track voltages, so may only provide something in the region of 10-12 volts, when ideally the smoke units like something higher.

Like something higher than 10-12 volts? I surely hope the train stays on the track, at such a high speed.

They were conceived for DC originally!

My AC powered Lionel Berkshire had smoke long before it was added to DC powered trains.

Just adding to the discussion from my experience, perhaps this thread needs someone else with experience of the subject?

Probably.


Ed

[mvlandsw]

nomads,

   If DCC does not provide enough power for smoke units how did yours work at first and then fail?

   If DCC does not provide enough power for smoke units would adding a capacitor across the output of the decoder increase the average power?

Mark

     

    

[mvlandsw]

The motor output of an ESU LokPilot decoder is driving the two Seuthe smoke units very well. I turned off BEMF since the resistance loading won't produce any. The output can be varied or turned off completely with the throttle control. I haven't run them very long since they cloud up the room, but I'm sure the loco owner will give them a workout.

Mark