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Post by lars on Jan 1, 2024 15:54:27 GMT -8
I recently purchased some new bulkheads. The new Walthers Mainline Bethlehem BSH71A came from my local dealer for $28 and I purchased the ScaleTrains second run Bethlehem F68AH on a Cyber Monday sale for $45. Additionally I pulled out an older Atlas Trainman bulkhead for comparison. Putting the three together, what is most obvious is the color of the ST car. As I was pulling them out the song "One of These Things is Not Like the Other" from Sesame Street started playing in my head. The ST car came from a grouping representing cars patched in the early 90's. Other cars from the second run (mostly those with the red TTX logo) don't look nearly as lemony in color as these, although those in the as-delivered scheme look similar. I'm not sure what this bright yellow is supposed to represent. There is also a color difference between the paint of the car and the molded detail parts and bulkhead, which adds to the issue. Looking at railcarphotos.com, cars from the early 2000's look pretty much like the Atlas and Walthers cars, and more weathered ones still have the base color, just more washed out. If there is something of this color out there, I haven't seen it. Additionally, I pulled out a couple other TTX cars. The Walthers centerbeam is very close to the BSA71A, but surprisingly the PS 60’ bulkhead has less tan and more orange to it. Knowing that the Mainline series is primarily molded-on detail, I was surprised how well it looks. Comparing underframes, the ST has better wire work, but the Walthers car looks better on some of the brackets and guards. The ladder rungs on the Walthers are thick, especially in the front to back direction, but it should make for easy thinning with some chiseling and filing. Stirrups on the Walthers are not overly offensive. Of course the ST has great detail all around, but the bulkhead is too thick when comparing the car to the prototype. There is extra material beyond the seam inside of the grab irons. It’s present on some ST cars while not on others; I can’t seem to find much of a rhyme or reason to it. Weight favors the ST car at 4.3 oz, with the Atlas at 3.8 and the Walthers at 3.1. All are too light for NMRA recommended weighting practices. My take…I’m pleasantly surprised by the Walthers car. It will look nice with a load on it, which should help with weight as well. I find the color too disappointing on the ST. I’m going to see if I can return or exchange it for a different ST car. I’m not confident that I can weather the brightness out of it. The Atlas car lacks in underframe detail and isn’t as nice as the Walthers at a similar price point. They are also too new for me now that I’ve refined my intended modeling era, so eventually they will go. Walthers car is top and left, ST center and Atlas is bottom and right. Pics were shot in my kitchen under LED and some natural light. The pic with the centerbeam and 60’ car was shot later after dark.       |
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Post by 690 on Jan 1, 2024 16:22:05 GMT -8
The ScaleTrains car you’ve got represents a car that was rebuilt with an extended bulkhead. Not all the cars got it, but it’s accurate.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 1, 2024 16:27:47 GMT -8
While the ST car's base yellow is indeed BRIGHT, I'm not ready to say it's wrong. Yet.
Or that the others are right.
What I'd like is an "expert witness" (someone like Dick Dawson, who worked for TTX) who has actual facts on hand. I do know there's at least two very different yellows, at least.
The very good news is that TTX cars rarely appear in fresh paint (which WOULD be a problem for the ST car--since there's patch paint, the original paint must have been weathered), so a huge coating of the right shade of filth car solve the problem. Something NOT available if you're running the Empire Builder.
Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 1, 2024 16:28:41 GMT -8
The ScaleTrains car you’ve got represents a car that was rebuilt with an extended bulkhead. Not all the cars got it, but it’s accurate. Yes. But for what purpose? I posed the question to Dick Dawson, but he never answered. Ed |
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Post by hudsonyard on Jan 1, 2024 16:37:34 GMT -8
Only negative things I can say about the Walthers Mainline cars is the wheelsets are truly horrific and the trucks are clunky looking, it's an easy swap on for a nicer truck though. Biggest thing for a car at that price point is that it's ready to go out of the box, ugly trucks aside the car is ready to go if you're just a runner.
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Post by grabirons on Jan 1, 2024 16:47:45 GMT -8
How do you guys thin out the details on the ladders and grab irons exactly? I've seen it explained here many times, but I just don't understand how in some places a blade can be put in certain places without much room.
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Post by lars on Jan 1, 2024 17:13:02 GMT -8
The ScaleTrains car you’ve got represents a car that was rebuilt with an extended bulkhead. Not all the cars got it, but it’s accurate. You are correct and the extension is correct for that exact number, now that I am looking at the right picture. |
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Post by 690 on Jan 1, 2024 17:29:13 GMT -8
The ScaleTrains car you’ve got represents a car that was rebuilt with an extended bulkhead. Not all the cars got it, but it’s accurate. Yes. But for what purpose? I posed the question to Dick Dawson, but he never answered. Ed I would assume probably for loads that required less room between bulkheads and they didn’t want the load to be at risk of badly shifting. Or the extra metal helped to reinforce the bulkhead in case of a shifted load. |
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Post by lars on Jan 1, 2024 17:36:26 GMT -8
While the ST car's base yellow is indeed BRIGHT, I'm not ready to say it's wrong. Yet. Or that the others are right. What I'd like is an "expert witness" (someone like Dick Dawson, who worked for TTX) who has actual facts on hand. I do know there's at least two very different yellows, at least. The very good news is that TTX cars rarely appear in fresh paint (which WOULD be a problem for the ST car--since there's patch paint, the original paint must have been weathered), so a huge coating of the right shade of filth car solve the problem. Something NOT available if you're running the Empire Builder. Ed I'm in the same position. There are not a lot of photos when they were fresh, with this blown out pic being the best I could find on railcarphotos. The actual car, much more weathered, has some brighter spots but I'm struggling to see those brighter shades under that grime. My modeling era is 1994, so the car should be cleaner than most of the pic you will find on the internet, so I don't know if I can get things right. And toning down all those nooks and crannies on an expensive car may be a little more stress inducing than I care to take. |
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Post by cera2254 on Jan 1, 2024 17:47:58 GMT -8
Only negative things I can say about the Walthers Mainline cars is the wheelsets are truly horrific and the trucks are clunky looking, it's an easy swap on for a nicer truck though. Biggest thing for a car at that price point is that it's ready to go out of the box, ugly trucks aside the car is ready to go if you're just a runner. I’m glad I’m not the only one that doesn’t understand why they use those awful wheelsets when they own the proto 2000 sets… |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 1, 2024 20:25:10 GMT -8
Yes. But for what purpose? I posed the question to Dick Dawson, but he never answered. Ed I would assume probably for loads that required less room between bulkheads and they didn’t want the load to be at risk of badly shifting. Or the extra metal helped to reinforce the bulkhead in case of a shifted load. I don't see that that addition is going to keep the load from shifting "badly"--it's only a few inches. Nor do I see why those particular cars would need reinforcing of bulkheads when there are so many more that don't. We can speculate. That ain't the same as knowing. Perhaps (speculation alert) they thickened the bulkheads for a particular load for a particular shipper. In that case, to use the cars properly, we might want to install the proper load. Being scale modelers, and all. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 1, 2024 20:26:10 GMT -8
And toning down all those nooks and crannies on an expensive car may be a little more stress inducing than I care to take. Ah feel your pain! Ed |
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Post by TBird1958 on Jan 1, 2024 20:29:40 GMT -8
The ST TTJX and TTMX cars were also that very odd shade of yellow, not correct for their early '70s lettering. I stripped and repainted mine. Stock color and repaint.   |
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Post by drolsen on Jan 1, 2024 20:30:07 GMT -8
Putting the three together, what is most obvious is the color of the ST car. As I was pulling them out the song "One of These Things is Not Like the Other" from Sesame Street started playing in my head. The ST car came from a grouping representing cars patched in the early 90's. Other cars from the second run (mostly those with the red TTX logo) don't look nearly as lemony in color as these, although those in the as-delivered scheme look similar. I'm not sure what this bright yellow is supposed to represent. There is also a color difference between the paint of the car and the molded detail parts and bulkhead, which adds to the issue. I'm not sure if I caught all the comments in this discussion, so I apologize if I repeat something that someone has already posted, but I'll just lay out my understanding of these cars. First, with regard to the bulkhead extensions on the ScaleTrains flat, I recall from a previous discussion on another list (either the Modern Freight Cars List on groups.io or the Freight Car Enthusiasts group on Facebook) that the extensions were added to accommodate a specific cargo like wallboard or another product. When the stacks of that product were laid end to end on the deck, they needed that specific length to fit a whole number of stacks (comes out to 60' 6" with my scale ruler). As far as the color goes, your model of TTPX 81166 represents a car in the original as-delivered brighter Trailer Train yellow that was patched with the TTX logo later in life. As I'm sure most people here know, Trailer Train changed its name to TTX in 1991 and introduced the TTX speed logo that appears on the model of TTPX 81166 (and the Atlas car). However, sometime in the late 1970s, Trailer Train made a change in the yellow paint they were using due to rising environment concerns (and regulations) about lead and other heavy metals in industrial paint. They switched from a bright yellow to a more "mustard" color, and the color differences seen here represent that change. When the TTX name change took place, many flats in the Trailer Train scheme were simply patched with the mustard paint color, or black in the case of the reporting mark locations, and had the TTX logo added. This was very common on the prototype cars, so ScaleTrains offered a bunch of numbers that are similarly patched. On the model of TTPX 81166, you can see the mustard yellow patch in the middle of the car, including the sheet metal extension below the side sill that provided room for the large block letter TT logo. The one caveat I have to add here is that it looks a little odd that there's not a similar long mustard yellow patch where the Trailer Train name originally appeared, under the TTX logo. Most cars I've seen have that patch as well, as do several of the other numbers that ScaleTrains produced. I'll share a few photos of my own models for reference, and then I'll end with another caveat about all this. Here are two photos of two ScaleTrains flats next to one of my Walthers BSH71A flats (which I think are excellent models, by the way). TTPX 81335 (top) represents a car in original Trailer Train yellow with later mustard yellow patches covering the original TT and Trailer Train lettering. TTPX 81043 (middle) represents an F68AH that was fully repainted in TTX mustard yellow. The Walthers model of TTPX 82119 (bottom) represents an as-delivered Trailer Train car, which looks close in color to the ScaleTrains full repaint... but should it? I'll address that last.  This top view shows the same cars in order. Note that I haven't gotten around to installing the laser-cut wood decking on the two ScaleTrains cars. This was left for the modeler to apply on the first run cars, but the most recent run comes with the decking already installed (thankfully!). This really shows the difference between the patched as-delivered yellow (top) and the mustard yellow repaint (middle). As I think was already mentioned, the original Trailer Train yellow was pretty bright, but the ScaleTrains color is a little too bright. I plan to tone it down with some weathering.  This last photo shows a comparison of a ScaleTrains model of F68AH 81127 in original Trailer Train yellow next to the Walthers BSH71A. The difference in color is more apparent in person and in my top view above (the top and bottom models). When I compared these two models, my first thought was that Walthers used the later mustard yellow color on a model that should have been delivered in the brighter Trailer Train yellow. The Walthers model represents TTPX series 82036-82159, Trailer Train class BSH71A, built 11-1979 to 12-1979. The ScaleTrains flat represents a car from TTPX series 81079-81178, TT class F68AH, built in 1973. The BSH71A cars were built right around the time that Trailer Train was switching to the new mustard yellow, so I think they may have been among the first to be delivered in that color? The ScaleTrains yellow is clearly too bright, but I was concerned that the Walthers color was too close to the later mustard yellow and should have been done in the brighter TT yellow.  I asked Dick Dawson about this, and whether he knew when the color switch took place on newly delivered cars. He unfortunately didn't have firsthand knowledge to allow him to pinpoint a date. Here's his response: "Dave, I can’t give you a precise date for the paint formulation change. The change occurred while I was away at Berwick Forge and was led by Howard Tonn, who was Trailer Train’s Manager, Quality Assurance at the time. (Howard’s leaving Trailer Train in 1984 to go into business for himself created the opportunity for me to return to Trailer Train after Berwick Forge went out of business, so I will always be grateful to him.) While I can’t give you a precise date when new Trailer Train cars started to be painted with the new muddier, lead-free paint, Berwick Forge delivered the first XWF20 Railbox cars in April 1980. The change therefore had to occur prior to then. Howard spent a fair amount of time developing the requirements for the lead-free paints (there was a black finish paint in addition to the yellow) and he had not yet been hired when I left Trailer Train in 1977, so my guess is that the new yellow finish paint was first applied in 1979 or very early in 1980. 1978 would be possible, but unlikely in my opinion." I'm going to go with the conclusion that the Walthers car is correctly painted in the later mustard color, having been built around the time they made the paint change. That may help explain why so many of these cars remained in their original TT paint, and none of them have the obvious mustard patches over bright yellow. In fact, all the prototype numbers that Walthers chose can be seen still in their as-delivered lettering in online photos into the 2000s, which is pretty remarkable (except TTPX 82119 pictured here, which I wasn't able to locate a photo of). That's a really long answer, but I hope it helps. Dave |
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Post by lars on Jan 2, 2024 9:24:26 GMT -8
Dave, I had some similar thoughts as you and was reserving judgement until I could learn a bit more. Looking at build dates for a possible color switch was next on my list.
This is kind of why I posted the last picture with the PS 60’ bulkhead. Its color is more orange than the centerbeam and Mainline bulkhead, and given a retrofit date in the late 60’s, should precede the mustard color.
Given that we have two known TTX colors, one of which is accurately represented by a few manufacturers on post-1979 cars, and earlier cars one of which is more orange, and the other that is a very bright yellow, which one is more correct?
PS - Would this explain a lighter shade of yellow on early Raibox cars, such as the 5090’s?
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Post by csxt8400 on Jan 2, 2024 13:40:30 GMT -8
I will say I like the way Walthers designed the car. Adding wire to the outside and ends and you have a very decent car. That said, the artwork is unfortunate. They definitely look to have used 9" reporting mark characters, when it appears to be more like 7" on the prototypes. Scaletrains gets the nod in that department.
The Trailer Train lettering is the same height as the reporting marks. You can easily spot the discernable difference on the model.
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