HO Amtrak E60 questions

[antoniofp45]

Hello Crew,

Although I primarily model the SCL, New Haven, and very early Amtrak, I pushed my era up to 1974 so that I could include the SDP40F and the E60CP.

American GK produced a nice looking Amtrak HO E60CP in the Phase-II paint scheme back in the 70s, but they don't show up very often on Ebay, so I've been considering the Bachmann version.

However, when looking at sales listings on ebay I've come to realize that Bachmann must have produced multiple runs on them since some units are in phase-III paint schemes and include DCC decoders while some phase-II units come with different numbers.

My question is: Does anyone have information as to the drive quality and body detailing of the various E60s that Bachmann has produced over the years?

Most of the photos I've seen show the HO units at approximately 2 to 4 feet distance from the camera, so it can be a bit difficult to see if windshields and number boards are flush fitting or if the units sit at the proper height.

The American GK unit, although a bit noisy with its Athearn BB drive, was a very strong puller and could yank a 15 car train with ease (just like the prototype!). But I know "nada" about the Bachmann performance. I'm assuming it's not on par with the GK version as far as weight and smooth running.

-------------

Ok, now before I get "blitzed"...............

Yes, I already know that the prototype E60CP had it's yaw & pitch issues, and was overweight. But the E60CP was an integral part of Amtrak history and even with their 90mph speed restriction managed to pull their long distance assignments reliably. I rode behind them on my trips to the northeast and felt that they were sleek looking boxcab brutes. IMHO, their Nathan P01235 horn was a cool, mellow-sounding music maker like this unit in the Phase-III scheme pulling 12 cars at speed:


Thanks

[craigz]

Working from memory the earliest E60s from Bachmann had the miserable pancake motor power trucks. Awful things.

[alcoc430]

Working from memory the earliest E60s from Bachmann had the miserable pancake motor power trucks. Awful things.

Yes that is correct, the pancake motors were in those yellow/brown box versions. The new blue box versions have dual powered trucks, and a upgraded body as well.

Also Walthers produced E60CP and E60CF utilizing an Athearn drive train.

[Spikre]

Walthers took over the American GK line in the mid or late 70s.
there are better drives to use today,an Atlas based drive would be good to
use.
from pics it looked like GK used the Athearn SD9 drive under the E60F body,
but with the GE type trucks.
the E60Ps had a GE looking fuel tank,so they may have used a complete Athearn
C Boat Drive?
been a long time since seeing any in person.
the Walthers Amfleet cars were tooled by GK also.
GK was supposed to do the P30CH/P,but don't think they ever did ?
Bachman Shells may be usable,but wouldn't trust the drives under them.
Prototype E60Ps mostly had ADK trucks under them,as did the Pooches,these caused
high speed problems as they did with the ATSF U28CGs and U30CCGs,but think that was
where the GEs were allowed 90MPH.
riding from Newark NJ to DC several times behind the E60s they seemed limited to about
70 MPH.
of course Track Work may have been the limiting factor,but when heading south on SCL
rails the same train was moving a bit faster,maybe in the mid 80s,but not the 90s like
U.P. would run the City of Everywhere.
Spikre

[railthunder]

I have a couple of the latest Bachmann runs that have DCC on board (Blue Box) and have no complaints. They look nice and Bachman did them in both the phase II and phase III paint. The Phase III painted ones should be good up through about 1988 or so when Amtrak started rebuilding them and moved the numberboards above the windshield. They pull ok also, though I've not load tested one. The only slight things I will change are LED lights for the headlights and gyro-lights, a Details West or Cal Scale M5 type horn (the Bachmann horn is way too big), and perhaps seperate windshield wipers. I also have a couple of the American GK ones. They were offerred only in the Phase II paint. They required a little more effort to get them to look good. The pantographs left a little to be desired and I'll likely replace them someday. As I recall I took almost all of the insulators from a scrap old yellow box Bachmann E60 shell to use on the Walthers GK. As mentioned it has an old Athearn Blue Box drive. I would definitely consider upgrading to an Atlas U or C chassis at some point for ultra smoothness and weight. The ultra question though is what you intend to pull with them. A typical corridor train should be no issue, but a Florida long distance train will need some tweaking to get as free rolling as possible as 16-18 cars will be taxing for sure.

[mlrr]

I have two Walthers GK E60s as well as the current Bachmann E60 and the older version. I have every incarnation of mass-produced E60s ever manufactured so I can speak from direct experience and not speculation.

The current Bachmann tooling is as follows:
-Locomotive's weight is light with a plastic chassis (There is plenty of room to add weight to the locomotive)
-Can motor with dual powered trucks
-All-wheel pickup
-Pantagraphs which can be used to power the locomotive via a switch on the internal pc board
-Upgraded body with molded on detail parts such as windshield wipers
-Flush mounted windows with molded on windshield wipers

Old Bachmann
-Pancake motor (Terrible!)
-10-wheel pickup (2 out of the 12 wheels have rubber traction tiers)
-One power truck (4-wheel pickup, 2 traction wheels)
-Light weight
-Rubber stirrups
-Plastic pantographs
-Plastic chassis

GK/Walthers E60
-Metal Chassis
-Can Motor (athearn drive)
-All-wheel pickup
-Dual trucks powered
-Heavy locomotive weight
-Separately applied grab irons
-Non-operable, metal pantographs
-Flush mounted, separately applied window glazing

I've been most satisfied with the American GK/Walthers(even though it's hard to find). Of the three, it's the only one that requires assembly BUT gives you room to add additional detail before assembly (if you're fortunate to get an un-used kit with all parts included). I used an A-line motor to replace the factory motor (if you want to upgrade). Don't try and mix-match parts from other manufacturers. I tried that YEARS ago and it was a waste of money. I would replace the trucks with a more current U-series diesel locomotives.  There's allot of arching with the older metal trucks. You can probably purchase these separately from Athearn directly or off a used model (if cheaper).

Bachmann's current E60 is an improvement but not one that one would expect considering the quality of their spectrum line and as an implicit disclaimer from Bachmann, the current E60 is NOT part of their "Spectrum" line so don't expect the same level of performance.

[Paul Cutler III]

The Walthers E60's have non-operable pans? I bought a Walthers NH E60CF as a kid (hey, it was in NH paint...they wouldn't make anything that was wrong, would they?). At the time, my club's layout had a working HO overhead catenary for trolleys. I re-wired my E60CF for overhead operation using the factory pan, and it worked just fine...until it got to a curve or a wire frog. It wasn't wired up from the factory, but by connecting a wire to a metal screw holding the pan to the roof, it did actually work.

[mlrr]

Oct 21, 2013 9:13:05 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

The Walthers E60's have non-operable pans? I bought a Walthers NH E60CF as a kid (hey, it was in NH paint...they wouldn't make anything that was wrong, would they?). At the time, my club's layout had a working HO overhead catenary for trolleys. I re-wired my E60CF for overhead operation using the factory pan, and it worked just fine...until it got to a curve or a wire frog. It wasn't wired up from the factory, but by connecting a wire to a metal screw holding the pan to the roof, it did actually work.

Clearly, anything can be modified after-market.  The point is that both the original Bachmann and GK/Walthers E60s are not set up for overhead operation although the GK/Walthers version has metal pans.

The current Bachmann version is the only mass-produced E60 that is already set-up for such operation.

[Paul Cutler III]

Kyle,
Ah, okay. When I read "non-operable", I tend to think of something that will not work at all...as if the pan was cast in one piece. The Walthers pan is an operating pan (goes up and down and has decent spring pressure, IIRC) and it conducts electricity reliably. It is, as you noted, not wired to the motor from the factory. But it is a wicked easy job to wire it up. I guess my point is that you don't have to go out and buy a pan, as compared to the old Bachmann.

[antoniofp45]

Guys, thanks!

Your replies are very helpful. Since I'm modeling the early 1970s, the Phase II scheme is my preference.

Based on experiences with 1970s production Bachmann Metroliners, I'm being cautious as I don't relish the idea of spending $80 to $100 (plus shipping)on a model that would then require a complete replacement of the drive (another $70 plus ?) just so that its performance comes up to a "decent" level. Hence, my preference for the American GK / Walthers version. I've seen a 70s production GK unit perform and was impressed at how easily it hauled a 12 car HO passenger train at about a scale 90mph with all wheels powered and no traction tires. The drive's noise would not be an issue as a good friend of mine taught me the tricks to quieting down Athearn drives. It appeared that the GK unit had an Athearn GE U-Boat "C" drive chassis.

After having read RailThunder's and MLRR's input, I'm now willing to consider a "late" production Bachmann unit (if any show up) since the body is better tooled than the 1980s production units.

From what I've seen, both, the Bachmann and GK/Walthers E60s have plenty of room inside for a DCC/Sound decoder and nice size speaker (or a pair of small ones). I'd enjoy hearing a custom edited Nathan P01235 horn on an HO unit.

[trebor]

Perhaps an Athearn or Atlas drive could be subbed for the Botchman set up. A lot of work buy not any alternative. We couldn't give the Amer, GK E60's away in the 1980 era.

[antoniofp45]

Trebor,

That's an interesting option and I do wonder what would be involved?

The ideal scenario would be if an E60 shell could fit onto an "Atlas" U33C chassis without extensive mods. That would solve the running quality issue. As the saying goes "You can't go wrong with an Atlas".

However, one possible potential "bugger": The prototype GE E60 is 70ft in length while the prototype GE U33/36 C is 67'-3" in length. So is the Athearn chassis on the American GK unit lengthened, or did Athearn simply slap the American GK shell on to their U-Boat "C" chassis? Are the Bachmann and American GK units the same length?

Regardless of brand, does anyone here own both, an HO E60 and an HO U33C? If so, can you compare the lengths of the units and post your findings, please?

Now, let's say it turns out that an Atlas GE C-drive fits..........how much $$ will be invested in putting together a decent running E60? I'm assuming it would likely be Bachmann since the GK version seems to rarely show up on ebay. On ebay, Atlas "C-Boats" range from $60 to $100, plus shipping. The newer Bachmann E60s float between $80 - $110. So, by the time I spring for a sound decoder it's possible that I may have $300+ invested for a (likely) used drive and a shell that's barely a step above the "Blue Box" level.

I realize that I can't have my cake and eat it too, but I'm trying to look at the scenarios realistically.

Nov 20, 2013 21:55:02 GMT -8 trebor said:

Perhaps an Athearn or Atlas drive could be subbed for the Botchman set up. A lot of work buy not any alternative. We couldn't give the Amer, GK E60's away in the 1980 era.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2013 19:07:10 GMT -8 antoniofp45 said:

However, one possible potential "bugger": The prototype GE E60 is 70ft in length while the prototype GE U33/36 C is 67'-3" in length. So is the Athearn chassis on the American GK unit lengthened, or did Athearn simply slap the American GK shell on to their U-Boat "C" chassis? Are the Bachmann and American GK units the same length?

I had an American GK E60 or freight version painted up BN in the 1970's. The chassis was the Athearn SD9 and the trucks GE.

The American GK E60CF has its own chassis. It does not use a standard Athearn GE C-boat chassis. Here is a link to a Tyco forum where a person too a photo of the guts of an American GK E60CF. You'll notice the LONG fuel tank and the light gray extra long spline to compensate for the longer than standard chassis.

www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7925

Also, be aware that those 1970's era American GK's will come with the diecast side frames on the trucks, wide body gray Athearn motor and sintered iron flywheels and wheels. If Walthers did these in the 1980's with the new plastic side frame Athearn GE six axle truck and hopefully better guts, that would be a better starting point than a model that dates back to the Bicentennial.

[trebor]

Nov 23, 2013 19:07:10 GMT -8 antoniofp45 said:

Trebor,

That's an interesting option and I do wonder what would be involved?

The ideal scenario would be if an E60 shell could fit onto an "Atlas" U33C chassis without extensive mods. That would solve the running quality issue. As the saying goes "You can't go wrong with an Atlas".

However, one possible potential "bugger": The prototype GE E60 is 70ft in length while the prototype GE U33/36 C is 67'-3" in length. So is the Athearn chassis on the American GK unit lengthened, or did Athearn simply slap the American GK shell on to their U-Boat "C" chassis? Are the Bachmann and American GK units the same length?

Regardless of brand, does anyone here own both, an HO E60 and an HO U33C? If so, can you compare the lengths of the units and post your findings, please?

Now, let's say it turns out that an Atlas GE C-drive fits..........how much $$ will be invested in putting together a decent running E60? I'm assuming it would likely be Bachmann since the GK version seems to rarely show up on ebay. On ebay, Atlas "C-Boats" range from $60 to $100, plus shipping. The newer Bachmann E60s float between $80 - $110. So, by the time I spring for a sound decoder it's possible that I may have $200+ invested for a (likely) used drive and a shell that's barely a step above the "Blue Box" level.

I realize that I can't have my cake and eat it too, but I'm trying to look at the scenarios realistically.

Nov 20, 2013 21:55:02 GMT -8 trebor said:

Perhaps an Athearn or Atlas drive could be subbed for the Botchman set up. A lot of work buy not any alternative. We couldn't give the Amer, GK E60's away in the 1980 era.

I would explore putting the trucks and drive prom the atlas U-boat into a Bothed-man E60. Forget the Atlas chassis, its the wrong length. Either way, anything is better than the stock E60 drive.

[Spikre]

consider the Atlas C40-8 or CW40-8 chassis.
they should be around 71' long,but will cost
more.
the shell can always be sold to keep costs down.
it comes down to how bad one wants a decent running E60P.
Spikre

[trebor]

Truck mounting and frame differing?

[antoniofp45]

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for your input and I appreciate the multiple suggestions. As I learned in the transit industry, it's good to have and explore more than one "potential solution" when anticipating "potential problems".

On the web I found a business that has a few later run Bachmann (Botchmann ) units that are dcc equipped. I finally found photos showing one up close. I must admit that the newer Bachmann shell does appear more prototypically accurate than the 1970s American GK unit. From what I can see, one "eye bugging" item I would want to replace immediately would be the horns. If I don't have any Details West P5s or M5s left in my stash, I'll order Cal Scale replacements from Bowser. The pantographs don't look bad, and I would Alclad those with an aluminum finish. I would also upgrade the lighting with warm-white LEDs.

I don't recall have seen a Walthers E60 and they rarely show up on "the bay", so I'm strongly considering taking a chance and getting the Bachmann unit. If/when I do I'll post photos and report its running qualities here.

[bnsf971]

Why not donwhat we do with Athearn chassis, and simply replace the motor with a Kato HM5? You can use tha Atlas trucks, GK frame, and a Kato motor.

[Amboy Secondary]

Nov 23, 2013 20:58:34 GMT -8 @babalooey said:

Nov 23, 2013 19:07:10 GMT -8 antoniofp45 said:

However, one possible potential "bugger": The prototype GE E60 is 70ft in length while the prototype GE U33/36 C is 67'-3" in length. So is the Athearn chassis on the American GK unit lengthened, or did Athearn simply slap the American GK shell on to their U-Boat "C" chassis? Are the Bachmann and American GK units the same length?

I had an American GK E60 or freight version painted up BN in the 1970's. The chassis was the Athearn SD9 and the trucks GE.

The American GK E60CF has its own chassis. It does not use a standard Athearn GE C-boat chassis. Here is a link to a Tyco forum where a person too a photo of the guts of an American GK E60CF. You'll notice the LONG fuel tank and the light gray extra long spline to compensate for the longer than standard chassis.

www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7925

Also, be aware that those 1970's era American GK's will come with the diecast side frames on the trucks, wide body gray Athearn motor and sintered iron flywheels and wheels. If Walthers did these in the 1980's with the new plastic side frame Athearn GE six axle truck and hopefully better guts, that would be a better starting point than a model that dates back to the Bicentennial.

Interesting, you rattled my brain a bit . The prototype for the American GK E-60 was a GE motor built for a captive coal railroad in Utah, I think. There were about six of them, and they had a single operating cab. GE used this design with a lengthened body for the Amtrak E60CP, accommodating the second cab, and train heating. There were two versions of the Amtrak motor, the first six were built with steam generators and had a large under slung water tank (not fuel tank - these were Motors). The remaining motors were equipped with an MA set, for HEP, and did not have an underside water tank.

I would have to look up photos to verify my memory here, but it is possible, that the Bachmann version represents the MA equipped version, and the American GK/Walthers the steam heated version.

Joe

[sd80macs]

Just incase anyone is wondering here are pics of the newest Bachmann E60.

[sd80macs]

Just incase anyone is wondering here are pics of the newest Bachmann E60.

[Deleted]

Tooling on the Bachmann is heavy and in some places just plain crude. Those horns are hideous and some of the roof castings are not well cast with noticeable part lines.

In the last photo the drive appears to be tilting like the leaning Tower of Pisa.

[bdhicks]

Seems like they should have been able to engineer that so they could fit a bigger flywheel in there.

[bnsf971]

Nov 28, 2013 14:38:13 GMT -8 bdhicks said:

Seems like they should have been able to engineer that so they could fit a bigger flywheel in there.

They probably felt that with the onboard decoder adding momentum, there was no need for larger flywheels.

[antoniofp45]

SD80Macs,

Wow, thank you very much for the closeup shots and bringing things up a couple of notches!

Imho, considering that this is not a Spectrum unit, it's not a bad looking unit at all. Good that it has a can motor and I hope that it's a 5-pole unit. It's too bad Bachmann didn't decide to take the "Spectrum" route with this, as was done with the HO New Haven E33 (EF-4).

1. I would definitely consult my friend who is a DCC expert.......but it "appears" that there is ample room for DCC Sound (perhaps QSI's "Hi Bass" speaker firing downward. Also seems to be room for adding 1/4" thick steel bars, of which I have plenty of.

2. I agree with Brian regarding the potential for the use of a larger flywheel.

3. The pantograph, resistors, and other parts "appear" to be removable for painting and some heavy weathering like the prototypes. Thumbs up on that at least.

www.flickr.com/photos/trains_gg1/4576677741/lightbox/

4. That horn cluster makes me say "YIPES!". Looks more like the cannons used in the Spanish-American War. Definitely should be replaced with DW
or Cal Scale versions.

5. On both ends the painted gyra-lights could be drilled out and replaced with LEDs. Headlights should also be upgraded to LEDs.

6. For interior details, there appears to be room for an AAR control stand. trainweb.org/mdamtrak199/amtpp/621cab.html

[carrman]

Nov 28, 2013 18:48:39 GMT -8 bnsf971 said:

Nov 28, 2013 14:38:13 GMT -8 bdhicks said:

Seems like they should have been able to engineer that so they could fit a bigger flywheel in there.

They probably felt that with the onboard decoder adding momentum, there was no need for larger flywheels.

yeah, because that works so well......

[bnsf971]

Nov 29, 2013 10:32:59 GMT -8 carrman said:

Nov 28, 2013 18:48:39 GMT -8 bnsf971 said:

They probably felt that with the onboard decoder adding momentum, there was no need for larger flywheels.

yeah, because that works so well......

Remember who we're talking about...

[sd80macs]

Nov 29, 2013 7:28:09 GMT -8 antoniofp45 said:

SD80Macs,

Wow, thank you very much for the closeup shots and bringing things up a couple of notches!

Imho, considering that this is not a Spectrum unit, it's not a bad looking unit at all. Good that it has a can motor and I hope that it's a 5-pole unit. It's too bad Bachmann didn't decide to take the "Spectrum" route with this, as was done with the HO New Haven E33 (EF-4).

1. I would definitely consult my friend who is a DCC expert.......but it "appears" that there is ample room for DCC Sound (perhaps QSI's "Hi Bass" speaker firing downward. Also seems to be room for adding 1/4" thick steel bars, of which I have plenty of.

2. I agree with Brian regarding the potential for the use of a larger flywheel.

3. The pantograph, resistors, and other parts "appear" to be removable for painting and some heavy weathering like the prototypes. Thumbs up on that at least.

www.flickr.com/photos/trains_gg1/4576677741/lightbox/

4. That horn cluster makes me say "YIPES!". Looks more like the cannons used in the Spanish-American War. Definitely should be replaced with DW
or Cal Scale versions.

5. On both ends the painted gyra-lights could be drilled out and replaced with LEDs. Headlights should also be upgraded to LEDs.

6. For interior details, there appears to be room for an AAR control stand. trainweb.org/mdamtrak199/amtpp/621cab.html

There is a lot of room inside for weight and details. eventually I plan to add some lead to the fuel tank area as its empty and it should hopefully be able to pull a 16 cars Silver Star around. Also plan to upgrade the unit to model a E60MA which means moving the headlight and number boards to the top and adding a lot of parts. Also the side ladders are an odd rubber material and I have to find a sutible replacement as they are not that good. Also plan to add fulle LED lighting and a new DCC board.