Walthers Blunder on the Proto F7B

[Deleted]

I was watching an auction on evil-Bay for a Walthers F7B. I looked at the the detail behind the Farr grilles which seemed a little "off". The reason it is a little "off" is Walthers tooled the radiator shutters, etc. BACKWARDS!!!!

The front is in the back and back is in the front!

Here is a link to the undecorated models at walthers look at the B-unit and the layout of the openings behind the grille.

www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-40617

Now here is the Highliner shell, which is correct. Use the fuel fill as the point of reference.

www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/328-1006

I have only one comment....how can you mess something like that up??

[calzephyr]

Jun 9, 2012 5:30:37 GMT -8 @australianterrier said:

I was watching an auction on evil-Bay for a Walthers F7B. I looked at the the detail behind the Farr grilles which seemed a little "off". The reason it is a little "off" is Walthers tooled the radiator shutters, etc. BACKWARDS!!!!

The front is in the back and back is in the front!

Here is a link to the undecorated models at walthers look at the B-unit and the layout of the openings behind the grille.

www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-40617

Now here is the Highliner shell, which is correct. Use the fuel fill as the point of reference.

www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/328-1006

I have only one comment....how can you mess something like that up??

I would guess the way they messed it up is by ignoring the drawings.

No doubt the Highliner / Genesis shell is the best out there for detailing a correct model. When the Highliners B units were first out, I purchased as many as I could find and purchased more when the plated ones became available. I was waiting for the A Shells when the announcement about them being sold to Athearn finally came to our attention. At first it was disappointing, but Athearn did offer versions of many F units in various configurations.
They make wonderful models.

Larry

[craigz]

Well spotted, Jim....well spotted.

[riogrande]

Wow, I never noticed that. It's easy to miss however unless you are paying careful attention to which side your looking at.

BTW, D&RGW made their 3 window offset cupola steel rivited and welded cabooses and the 3 windows are staggered or offset from each other relative one side to the other. You can't imagine my disappointment when I FINALLY bought my first brass D&RGW caboose from PFM GOM - the windows "looked" right at first blush, but upon closer inspection comparing one side to the same side prototype photo's the 3 windows were all "off" on one side of the brass caboose. PFM/GOM did mirror image windows rather than match the real thing side per side for the 3 windows. I sold it and replaced it eventually with 6 other brass cabooses, mostly from Overland, and one from Div Point.

As for the Walthers F units, I avoided the D&RGW F3AB sets because Walthers also got some of the "phase" details wrong vs the Genesis F3's, although Walthers did put more of the latter day D&RGW details. My only F3's are Genesis. I've explained the minor issues with the Walthers F3's in my Rio Grande HO diesel models guide.

I do have one set of Walthers F7's ABBA set, in single stripe and to date, Walthers is the only manufacturer that offered Phase 1 F7's in single stripe. Genesis did single stripe phase II F7's

[nw611]

Hi Riogrande, could you please give me a link or other indications about your "Rio Grande HO diesel model guide". You did not mention at all the Genesis F9M, a wrecked F3A rebuilt as an F9. Thanks.
Raffaele

[onequiknova]

Didn't Inter Mountain have a similar blunder with their F7B's? If I remember correctly, the roof was backwards. For them it was probably a relatively easy fix since the mold is most likely modular.

I wonder if the Walthers mold is modular in that area or not.

[riogrande]

Jun 9, 2012 7:47:31 GMT -8 nw611 said:

Hi Riogrande, could you please give me a link or other indications about your "Rio Grande HO diesel model guide". You did not mention at all the Genesis F9M, a wrecked F3A rebuilt as an F9. Thanks.
Raffaele

I didn't mention the Genesis units because this is mainly about the Proto 2000 F7B blunder. I would guess the F3B shows off the blunder the most because the way the chicken wire screen let you see the detail better what is behind vs the F7B where the air grills pretty much hide it.

Anyway, speaking of the Genesis F3A/F9m, his is mine:



The guide is posted on the Throughtherockies website run by a D&RGW in Sweden, and I don't know if he is active right now so if I make some updates, not sure if it will get posted there or not. Here is the link, but again, it needs some updating:

www.thrutherockies.com/model_2.php?id=49

Yes, there were at least 3 D&RGW F units rebuilt into different looking car bodies:

D&RGW FT-A #5481 was wrecked and rebuilt with an F7A carbody.

D&RGW F3A #5531 was wrecked and rebuilt as an F9m. Athearn Genesis has offered this in both 4-stripe and single stripe.

D&RGW F7A #5571 was wrecked and also rebuilt as an F9m. The difference between the above F3A and the F7A is that the roofs on both of the rebuilt F3A and F7A maintained their original configuration when the sides took on the F9A look.

[riogrande]

I'm assuming the blunder with the Walthers F7B is of most concern where you can really see the radiator shutters. With the F7B, the air grills make those extremely difficult to see, which is of some comfort to me since I have an F7ABBA set.

I'd assume the issue would be more serious with the F3B units with the chicken wire grills you can see the detail behind them more easily?

[calzephyr]

Jun 11, 2012 8:43:10 GMT -8 riogrande said:

I'm assuming the blunder with the Walthers F7B is of most concern where you can really see the radiator shutters. With the F7B, the air grills make those extremely difficult to see, which is of some comfort to me since I have an F7ABBA set.

I'd assume the issue would be more serious with the F3B units with the chicken wire grills you can see the detail behind them more easily?

You have to look at the correct details to see the difference at first glance and most have missed the errors. The units do look good overall and their nose on the F7A unit is the second best on the market for my money. I purchased one of the F7A Santa Fe units to check it against my 20 some Genesis models of the Santa Fe units. I can say this for sure, the Walthers units run much better than the Genesis models but details is a win for Athearn. I did not purchase any of the Walthers B units since I already had ten extra B units with Highliner shells before I started to purchase the Athearn sets.

If you look back at the history of what F units have been available to us in the past forty plus years, the Walthers units are really nice. The old Athearn blue Box models were the standards prior to the first Stewarts. They had no detail and look carefully at the front windows and these were all over layouts for many years.


Most modelers can run either set of F units and look good overall if the plated cars do not short out and burn.
larry

[el3637]

I don't own any of the Walthers F units. I do have several of the E units however - Milwaukee, NYC, PRR, and UP - all the new runs with the 14:1 helical gearing. The run super nice.

I never really seriously considered the Walthers F units. I did look at the recent run of the warbonnet and there is a major mold separation line on the nose. Apparently they were sanding this off on earlier runs but the warbonnets they did about a year ago all have it, sometimes visible right through the box.

I've had better luck than most with my Genesis F units. The best runners I have are the earlier ones with Roco motors circa 2002 to 2005 or so. Most of the plated warbonnet runs and a lot of other road name from that time span. The earlier ones from 2001 with the Buehler motors are flaky. And beginning around 2008 or 2009, the quality of the Roco motors fell way off. I did burn up a couple (my fault) but quite a few of them were stinkers right out of the box, especially on the FP7s. And also the GP15s - quite a few I test ran had a bluebox growl to them... didn't buy any, but I'm waiting on the Chessie GP15T.

Andy

[riogrande]

Jun 11, 2012 9:03:41 GMT -8 calzephyr said:

You have to look at the correct details to see the difference at first glance and most have missed the errors. The units do look good overall and their nose on the F7A unit is the second best on the market for my money. I can say this for sure, the Walthers units run much better than the Genesis models but details is a win for Athearn.

I think the F7A's look pretty good too. I didn't know they had the mold lines (much like the Stewart). That detracts from an otherwise very nice model if you buy a predec, which most do. As for noticing the F7B, I imagine the radiator shutter issue is fairly hard to notice if behind the F7B air grills. Same they made such a blunder, and at present I don't plan on buying anymore Walthers F7's. I only bought the set I did because no one else has offered phase I F7's in D&RGW single stripe paint to date other than Walthers.

If you look back at the history of what F units have been available to us in the past forty plus years, the Walthers units are really nice. The old Athearn blue Box models were the standards prior to the first Stewarts. They had no detail and look carefully at the front windows and these were all over layouts for many years.

You don't have to look carefully at the front windshields to pick out an Athearn "Globe" F7 - the windshields have always been the Athearn F7A's ugliest short coming and sticks out like a sore thumb. Of course the rest of the model ain't all that hot by most standards and Stewart blew it out of the water. As soon as Stewart become common, I got rid of all of my Athearn blue box F7's - I didn't even keep any for sentimental reasons.

[calzephyr]

Jun 11, 2012 11:30:10 GMT -8 riogrande said:

Jun 11, 2012 9:03:41 GMT -8 calzephyr said:

You have to look at the correct details to see the difference at first glance and most have missed the errors. The units do look good overall and their nose on the F7A unit is the second best on the market for my money. I can say this for sure, the Walthers units run much better than the Genesis models but details is a win for Athearn.

I think the F7A's look pretty good too. I didn't know they had the mold lines (much like the Stewart). That detracts from an otherwise very nice model if you buy a predec, which most do. As for noticing the F7B, I imagine the radiator shutter issue is fairly hard to notice if behind the F7B air grills. Same they made such a blunder, and at present I don't plan on buying anymore Walthers F7's. I only bought the set I did because no one else has offered phase I F7's in D&RGW single stripe paint to date other than Walthers.

If you look back at the history of what F units have been available to us in the past forty plus years, the Walthers units are really nice. The old Athearn blue Box models were the standards prior to the first Stewarts. They had no detail and look carefully at the front windows and these were all over layouts for many years.

You don't have to look carefully at the front windshields to pick out an Athearn "Globe" F7 - the windshields have always been the Athearn F7A's ugliest short coming and sticks out like a sore thumb. Of course the rest of the model ain't all that hot by most standards and Stewart blew it out of the water. As soon as Stewart become common, I got rid of all of my Athearn blue box F7's - I didn't even keep any for sentimental reasons.

Yes, the front windows look like something that was made in Mars since they were not sure what size the windows were. I still have about 10 of those packed away that have not seen the light of day since 1980 or so. If I remember correctly, Athearn got those from some other company. Anyone know the story??? Globe??

The first time the stewarts came out, I started to get those and purchased several sets of Overland Santa Fe units. After the Genesis models came out, I sold off the Overland sets since one set would equal the cost of ten to fifteen Genesis units at wholesale when they first came out.
Larry

[riogrande]

Although I have never personally researched the Athearn F unit history, I have seen add's for the Globe F7 or a diagram or literature, so it all follows.

I could never really afford brass, at least brass loco's, but I was happy with Stewart, they looked great and ran even better, the only down side is that Stewart did not offer all the paint jobs I wanted.

Certainly alot of the plastic stuff, both diesels and passenger cars (mainly) must have killed off alot of the brass market, and justly so. The Genesis F units based on the High Liner shell are outstanding.

[el3637]

Jun 11, 2012 12:42:24 GMT -8 calzephyr said:

The first time the stewarts came out, I started to get those and purchased several sets of Overland Santa Fe units. After the Genesis models came out, I sold off the Overland sets since one set would equal the cost of ten to fifteen Genesis units at wholesale when they first came out.

Not to mention the fact that no brass model at any price has, or will ever get the nose contour of an EMD F unit right.

The only brass EMD cabs I own are OMI EAs and E1s. The nose shape is a simpler curve on those, although I have no way to verify how accurate. They look ok to me, without a superior plastic model to compare to.

Andy

[riogrande]

Andy, thats true. While I have see any number of F units in brass, and even the newer ones didn't really impress me, especially for the price. I recall really wanting a correct D&RGW F3ABBA set and seeing a brass decorated set come out about 10 years ago, and it still looked like brass, the nose, pilot etc. still didn't look right. Even Stewarts looked better. What is worse, the paint stripes on the roof were some funky design that didn't match the real thing. And the set cost around $1,300. Even if I had the money I would have been reticent to spend it on the set when it didn't look right.

Fortunately Athearn Genesis offered the single stripe F3 ABBA set and it looks great and I have a set! Better than brass except this set doesn't have the 1960's add on "modernized" details such as toe creepway, extra grab irons and nose MU receptical.

[Donnell Wells]

The old Globe/Athearn F7 is archaic any way you slice it, BUT, at one point it was the best thing going. Many modelers have made very credible models based on this particular locomotive as outlined in the article found here:

www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/833/53907/january-february-1984-page-25

I still have quite a few of these shells, which I am slowly rehabing in a personal quest to see what I can do to make them better. To some it's wasted effort, but I am enjoying the challenge. Plus, I have just as many, if not more, Highliner kits, enough to keep me busy for a lifetime!

Donnell

[Deleted]

Jun 11, 2012 9:03:41 GMT -8 calzephyr said:

I can say this for sure, the Walthers units run much better than the Genesis models
larry

I disagree with this statement. I had an A-B-B-A sound set of Walthers F7's and they were neck and neck with original runs of Genesis F's for horrible power pick-up.

When the Genesis F's first began hitting the shelves in 2001-02 they'd stall on a spec of dirt the size of a fly's eyelash. Fast forward to 2006 when Walthers first released their Proto F's and the sound units especially stalled even on freshly cleaned track. NO other locomotive stalled out, but those Walther F's sure did! I dumped them on e-Bay just to get rid of them.

Now fast forward to the current crop of Genesis F's in the navy blue box with Tsunami sound. They are MUCH better than the Walthers units with the QSI board as far as not stalling. I don't know if its the circuit boards in these various models or changes in design. Athearn told me yesterday they've made changes in the assembly of the current runs of the F's.

[el3637]

Jun 12, 2012 11:13:57 GMT -8 @australianterrier said:

I disagree with this statement. I had an A-B-B-A sound set of Walthers F7's and they were neck and neck with original runs of Genesis F's for horrible power pick-up.

I didn't experience any pickup issues at all with my Genesis F drives until I got some with Tsunamis in them *and* configured them for manual notching. They would run a short distance and then the sound would reset to idle, indicating some kind of power interruption. This interruption wasn't visible in either the headlights or the motor operation - it was brief enough that without the sound unit - and the sound being in manual notching mode - I would never have even noticed it. I was somewhat amused that the fat purple capacitor on the Tsunami board did absolutely nothing... I don't know how much of a duration it's supposed to bridge, but if it's a blip so short I can't even see the headlight wiggle, the capacitor isn't working.

The fix - strangely enough - was to dig out the plastic channels in the gearboxes. Apparently these were molded close enough to the axles that much of the time the axle tubes were resting on them - which doesn't hurt anything except that the pickup system relies on the metal axle points resting in the holes in the bronze pickup strip. If the axle is instead being supported by the gearbox, then the contact in the pickup strip becomes intermittent. If all four axles have this condition then eventually in the course of rolling along, there will be a complete break of contact. This is apparently what was causing my sound decoders to reset to idle.

I really didn't buy it, until I took apart one of my Tsunami F units and used a nice sharp #11 knife to slightly enlarge the U-shaped cradles on the gearbox housings. The problem vanished instantly. I can now run these F units for hours on my grimy wet track and they never reset - if I've got them in Run8 they stay in Run8.

I've since done the same procedure on my other Tsunami sets - the Western Pacific FP7-F3B-F7B passenger set, and an FP7-F7B SP black widow set that Annette & I won as a door prize at Lisle last year. It fixed them all.

I have not gone back and done this to my non-Tsunami Genesis Fs. They continue to run fine - some even have DH123 and 163 decoders in them which I've left alone in spite of their bizarre behavior when consisting them (or changing any CV on the main) with my NCE system. It ain't broke enough to bother fixing. Not yet anyway. But should the need arise, they are all on 9-pin harnesses so they're an easy swap for a TCS decoder and it's superior lighting FX when I get the urge.

Actually, if I were to do that with three ABBA and one ABB warbonnet set... I think that would officially purge my entire premises of Digitrax products other than the DT400R I've kept for guest operations... which I haven't used in 3-4 years. Maybe it's time to ebay that too.

Andy

[Deleted]

I had a few of Genesis F's from the 2002 initial runs, GN to be specific. The boards inside were not DCC ready, that is how long ago the GN's were done by Athearn.....but I digress......

Power pick-up in standard DC was horrendous, matched only by the popping grille Intermountain FP7 from IMRC's first run.

I have some Athearn FP7's and F7's with Tsunami sound (current production - navy blue box) and they operate great. But there is a footnote in my statement....I run a liquid track cleaning car by CMX(?), looks like a tank car with a changeable pad, in the train which keeps the track squeaky clean and moist. I think EVERYTHING runs better now, whether it has sound or not, but again its not a scientific study.

So maybe the Walthers F's would have operated better if I had the CMX track cleaner car running in the train. Don't know, as I sold off the Walthers models. Can't say for sure if the old production Genesis GN F7 would have operated better either.

[el3637]

Jun 13, 2012 11:06:02 GMT -8 @australianterrier said:

So maybe the Walthers F's would have operated better if I had the CMX track cleaner car running in the train. Don't know, as I sold off the Walthers models. Can't say for sure if the old production Genesis GN F7 would have operated better either.

Were they the passenger GN units? When Walthers released the Empire Builder in 2007, I had no interest in the Walthers F units so I went looking for an ABA set in GN passenger from Genesis. These were done several years earlier. I ended up buying them secondhand but more or less NIB. I don't remember for sure but I don't think they were DCC ready - even if they were I would have gutted them and put my own lighting in. Maybe those need to be added to my Digitrax hit list, I don't remember what's in them... same for my F3 ABB set for the California Zephyr. Anyway, I had no trouble with the GN units once I had the decoders in them. Other than one of them apparently has a bent axle - the front truck wiggles a little. The only Genesis unit I've seen that problem with. One of these days I'll think to replace the axle.

The early Genesis F pickup problems do seem to be more common with folks running straight DC and dry track for some reason. Most of the time you'd expect DCC to be more sensitive to such things - I know I'm very glad I discovered wet track 20 years before I ever bought a DCC system. I would not want to run DCC on dry track.

Andy

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2012 11:40:16 GMT -8 el3637 said:

Jun 13, 2012 11:06:02 GMT -8 @australianterrier said:

So maybe the Walthers F's would have operated better if I had the CMX track cleaner car running in the train. Don't know, as I sold off the Walthers models. Can't say for sure if the old production Genesis GN F7 would have operated better either.

Were they the passenger GN units? When Walthers released the Empire Builder in 2007, I had no interest in the Walthers F units so I went looking for an ABA set in GN passenger from Genesis. These were done several years earlier. I ended up buying them secondhand but more or less NIB. I don't remember for sure but I don't think they were DCC ready - even if they were I would have gutted them and put my own lighting in. Maybe those need to be added to my Digitrax hit list, I don't remember what's in them... same for my F3 ABB set for the California Zephyr. Anyway, I had no trouble with the GN units once I had the decoders in them. Other than one of them apparently has a bent axle - the front truck wiggles a little. The only Genesis unit I've seen that problem with. One of these days I'll think to replace the axle.

The early Genesis F pickup problems do seem to be more common with folks running straight DC and dry track for some reason. Most of the time you'd expect DCC to be more sensitive to such things - I know I'm very glad I discovered wet track 20 years before I ever bought a DCC system. I would not want to run DCC on dry track.

Andy

My Walthers F7 set was Soo Line. The Soo's were released at or about the same time as the F's for the Empire Builder.

The Genesis GN 360 series passenger F's, with silver trucks and fuel tank (like Walthers) were released in 2007. The first passenger F's from Genesis, with black trucks and fuel tank were a 2002 release. This was the release I had bought. Athearn did a second run of black truck GN passenger F's in 2006. All though have generic detailing.

The Walthers GN passenger F's are popular because they feature prototype or close to, detailing. This includes the vent on the roof, air compressor cooling coil, snow plow pilot and single steam generator vent. The Walthers GN passenger F's sell for crazy amounts on e-Bay each and every time.