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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 18, 2014 10:40:10 GMT -8
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 18, 2014 12:22:28 GMT -8
Thanks for sharing this. I'm-a-smiling!  We're going to see FL9s, Penn Central/Amtrak patch Metroliners, Amtrak meatballs and more classic IRT subway cars! Wonderful news on the subway cars. I often rode the prototypes as a kid (and no, I wasn't a grafitti tagger! My Dad would have quickly tanned my hide had I even considered it)One positive feature that I see on the photo of the MTH IRT subway car is that the body does not sit extremely high like the P1K units due to "oversized" trucks. Look at the photo links below: Proto 1000 IRT R-17: rrmodelcraftsman.com/reviews/cm_review_walthers_subwaycars/subway-02.jpg(Scroll down) MTH IRT R-17: mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/new-products/2014/07/2014-national-train-show-report I can imagine that we may see a slight surge of P1K subway cars on ebay in the months ahead! I assumed that the LL units sat high due to Life Like using their standard P1K/P2K diesel locomotive trucks which appeared rather huge for those subway cars. But that's just my guess. Looks like MTH won't have that issue. |
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 18, 2014 12:45:53 GMT -8
Thanks for sharing this. I'm-a-smiling! We're going to see FL9s, Penn Central/Amtrak patch Metroliners, Amtrak meatballs and more classic IRT subway cars! Wonderful news on the subway cars. I often rode the prototypes as a kid (and no, I wasn't a grafitti tagger! My Dad would have quickly tanned my hide had I even considered it)One positive feature that I see on the photo of the MTH IRT subway car is that the body does not sit extremely high like the P1K units due to "oversized" trucks. Look at the photo links below: Proto 1000 IRT R-17: rrmodelcraftsman.com/reviews/cm_review_walthers_subwaycars/subway-02.jpg(Scroll down) MTH IRT R-17: mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/new-products/2014/07/2014-national-train-show-report I can imagine that we may see a slight surge of P1K subway cars on ebay in the months ahead! I assumed that the LL units sat high due to Life Like using their standard P1K/P2K diesel locomotive trucks which appeared rather huge for those subway cars. But that's just my guess. Looks like MTH won't have that issue. I own 2 sets of the R21 blue & silver P1K subway sets which I run as a 8 car consist and the height as well as not having reversing red/white lights has always bothered me. If MTH can correct the height, as well as add the same features their O scale subway cars into the HO cars, these will be a home run for them. I rode these as a kid in Bklyn in the 70's on the way to public school and remember not being able to look out to see the station stops because of all the graffiti covering the windows. I hope these do sell well, so they can do more than just IRT cars...maybe the R32 Brightliners or the R40 "Slants".... |
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Post by alcoc430 on Jul 18, 2014 13:22:46 GMT -8
Wish they would do some other subway models first instead of producing a model of something already made. Not saying I would buy....depends but I definitely wont replace what I already own especially at the price difference they will be. (I got my protos from Trainworld for $79 for a set of 4, no way MTH will come even close to that).
Glad that your happy though! its must be tough being a Subway modeler given the limit stuff available and mostly resin at high prices.
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 18, 2014 14:05:24 GMT -8
Wish they would do some other subway models first instead of producing a model of something already made. Not saying I would buy....depends but I definitely wont replace what I already own especially at the price difference they will be. (I got my protos from Trainworld for $79 for a set of 4, no way MTH will come even close to that). Glad that your happy though! its must be tough being a Subway modeler given the limit stuff available and mostly resin at high prices. Trainworld is where I got my 2 sets from and will hold on to them also. I suspect the MTH versions will be in the $350-400 or more initially, so I'm going to have to bargain hunt when they do come out, like their GG1. I've tried one resin model of a LIRR M1 and between the warped shell and the amount of flash, I quickly lost patience and out to the trash it went. Although, I have to wonder if MTH bought the tooling for the R21 subway cars from Walthers..... |
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Post by marknycfan on Jul 18, 2014 14:54:37 GMT -8
One set of R-21's please!
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 18, 2014 16:22:09 GMT -8
The Life Like Proto 1000 R17 and R21's are all out of proportion. The first time that Life Like released the R17's I bought a set, as soon as I received them I looked at them and compared them with my brass R17's and my Images Replicas and the difference was unbelievable. I mean if it was fixable I would have kept it, but it's not fixable. The body is too wide, the bulkhead is high including the shape of the roof is wrong. The trucks are too big and off centered. I was so disappointed waiting all my life for a plastic mass produced NYC subway cars and to have them built all wrong. :-( I posted them on ebay and sold them.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 18, 2014 16:26:04 GMT -8
Yes, MTH's price tags typically lean on the "sticker shock" side of the budget spectrum. I'll be bargain hunting as well. A typical prototype IRT subway train back in the 1960s-80s period, with a few exceptions (shuttles, pure EL lines, and Sunday service), was 10 cars long. www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2909www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?47036Incidentally, I was living in NYC at the time the above photos were taken. I often rode these trains with my family. So a "selectively compressed" full length version in HO would be 7 or 8 cars long, if I'm not mistaken. Modelers that may already have some of the P1K units and are on a tight budget may likely buy just one 4-car MTH set and consider running it with their P1K units, which of course poses a big visual problem. BED26, I wonder if there is an affordable "fix", such as replacing the trucks with the lower profile, self contained Bull Ant trucks. It might bring down the P1K subway cars' height and at least make them look "decent". |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jul 18, 2014 16:42:58 GMT -8
Personally, I'd spring for some HO versions of their Chicago Transit Authority equipment.
Donnell
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 18, 2014 16:52:34 GMT -8
Antoniofp45, I not sure what the Proto subway cars look like since the ones I had was a long time ago.
I would say that you can use the Images Replicas sideframes with PDT powered trucks. But the problem is that Images Replicas doesn't have the trucks by them selves. I also have read in the past that people used the Botchmann 44 Tonner motor trucks to powered the Images Replicas subway cars.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 18, 2014 19:27:31 GMT -8
I found a photo of a Bachmann 44 tonner. www.modeltrainstuff.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BAC-62214-2.jpgThe switcher's trucks are indeed smaller and appear closer to a "realistic" size as to what should be on the IRT subway cars. I looked for specs on the classic cars but nothing shows up for the truck lengths, axle spacing, and wheel size. So it looks like attempting to upgrade the P1K version, truck/height-wise might be an expensive fix since Bachmann 44 tonners on ebay range from $18.95 to $121. Hollywood Foundry offers a range of Bull Ant customizable powered and dummy trucks that are likely the correct size. However, HF is based in Australia and unless there is a US or Canadian distributor, it's likely that option would also be pricey. |
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 18, 2014 21:05:48 GMT -8
Antoniofp45,
The R17 trucks spacing is 6'-10" between axles and the wheels are 34" diameter. Hope this helps.
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Post by slowfreight on Jul 19, 2014 5:40:23 GMT -8
Safe for now...nothing for us B Division fans yet. Nice to see the interest is there from the manufacturers.
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 19, 2014 5:52:31 GMT -8
Slowfreight,
My favorite NYCTA equipment is A division but I also like B division as well. I would like to see MTH make the Arnines as well as the R10's. I sure hope MTH corrects the truck spacing on these because they look a bit off. BTW I would also like to see the R12/R14's as well.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 19, 2014 6:33:50 GMT -8
Thanks for the info on the trucks. 34" wheels? That makes things interesting. So it appears that 33" wheels would be the route to take for the P1K HO units. I wonder if MTH will be using 33" wheels or 36" wheels? 8-)R-10s? Ah, so you like those "clestory" style roofs! www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24357www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?96610To me, that "humped roof" gave the R10 and similarly styled subway cars a "tough, menacing" appearance  . (my warped way of thinking as a kid back then!) Slowfreight, My favorite NYCTA equipment is A division but I also like B division as well. I would like to see MTH make the Arnines as well as the R10's. I sure hope MTH corrects the truck spacing on these because they look a bit off. BTW I would also like to see the R12/R14's as well. |
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 19, 2014 6:39:24 GMT -8
Yes Antoniofp45 the R10's R12 and R14's always liked them. |
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 19, 2014 9:34:27 GMT -8
Only Tatra T3 I've seen was a static model in O scale, made by St Petersburg Tram Collection that was converted by to a DC model using Q Car trucks. Although I think their GG1 is a very good model, (I have 2) I think if MTH wanted to really find a nice niche in HO, I personally think it would be wise to produce their O scale subway, streetcars, commuter cars and locomotives (NJ Transit ALP46 comes quickly to mind) in HO than to keep repeating everyone else same efforts with all the bell & whistles. (ES44AC, Dash 9, F7, F3) As far as layouts, personally, I haven't seen a cutout, but have seen quite a few 2-tier layouts with subway trains running on the lower tier. Only elevated sets I've seen used Micro Engineering bridge sets for straights and cut out styrene & wood for the curves. I've petitioned for years for Kato to produce their Viaduct track sets that only comes in N scale and do them up in HO. Although not prototypical, they would be a nice addition to their HO scale track, and I'm sure commuter modellers would jump all over them. www.katousa.com/N/Unitrack/double.html |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 19, 2014 11:23:48 GMT -8
 Subways,one of the few places on land one can get seasick. and they used to smell like rolling urinals,or were the day trains sanitized ? and if that didn't get you,the screeching brakes would give a splitting headache worthy of a 1/2 gallon of White Lightning, or a 6 pack of Ripple. New Yorkers must be Sensory Deprived to put up with riding all week,but owning a car in NYC might even be worse. and people model that ? Spikre 
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 19, 2014 11:30:36 GMT -8
Subways,one of the few places on land one can get seasick. and they used to smell like rolling urinals,or were the day trains sanitized ? and if that didn't get you,the screeching brakes would give a splitting headache worthy of a 1/2 gallon of White Lightning, or a 6 pack of Ripple. New Yorkers must be Sensory Deprived to put up with riding all week,but owning a car in NYC might even be worse. and people model that ? Spikre Could say the same thing about Penn Central in its heyday  |
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Post by slowfreight on Jul 19, 2014 11:35:39 GMT -8
Subways,one of the few places on land one can get seasick. and they used to smell like rolling urinals,or were the day trains sanitized ? and if that didn't get you,the screeching brakes would give a splitting headache worthy of a 1/2 gallon of White Lightning, or a 6 pack of Ripple. New Yorkers must be Sensory Deprived to put up with riding all week,but owning a car in NYC might even be worse. and people model that ? Spikre Maybe back in the day, but it's a pleasant experience now. Trains are clean...no scratchitti or graffiti. Brakes don't screech. And if you don't like flange squeal you don't belong around railroads...at least not Horse Shoe Curve. I own a car, too, but the subway is just so much more fun. And the little man thinks it's great, so maybe he'll decide he likes trains after all. |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 19, 2014 11:55:27 GMT -8
rails4dmv, after EL DQed the Lake Cities did ride the combined General/Broadway from Chi-Town to Newark, what made it as bad as the subways was the trip took over 20 hours,which isn't a typical ride time for the subway. General passengers were locked into the rear of the train,couldnt even go to the Diner. after riding the "City of Everywhere" it was a sure shock. even the Lake Cities was a premium ride,but by 3/70 it was gone. but for Short term torture,nothing can beat the NYC subways. didn't have time to ride the "L",so no comments on that. have ridden the Toronto Subway and PCCs,they were fun,but there were no time constraits. Spikre 
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 12:26:19 GMT -8
Personally, I'd spring for some HO versions of their Chicago Transit Authority equipment.
DonnellCould be Walthers next name train* *the deluxe version will have Preiser bodies  MTH may beat them to the punch with Proto-havoc 3.0 ™   |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 19, 2014 17:37:48 GMT -8
Hi Spikre. Ok, why is it that you, me, and a lot of the other folks here are modeling trains/railroads that have been gone from mainline service for many years now? Although reasons vary for many of us it's because we're able to simulate the railroad scenes of your youth, right? Do we include the few negative elements that were present? Likely not (except for those of us that liked graffiti, of course). 1. "Smellmories". Yes, I remember smelling urine on a few underground station platforms once in a while. Yet, my most vivid scented recollections are of the creosote from the tracks' wooden ties and the strong (and rather pleasant) scent of ozone produced by the traction motors every time a train left a station at speed. Even my little sister (who did not like trains) noticed it. 2. "Soundmories". Those classic trains produced an array of unique and very pronounced sounds (Station stop brake applications, brake release, Westinghouse air compressor pumping, ICC (parking) brake, motor armature rotations, wheel squealing) that were sweet music to a subway fan's ears. Likely irritating or ignored as "white noise" to everyone else. Although the modern R142's styling is a tribute to the Redbirds they are, to me, very bland and sterile computer boxes on wheels that produce an incredibly annoying "whine" when braking and taking off. Imho, it's metaphorically similar to the enjoyment a Chevy enthusiast gets from hearing the roar of an LS-1 powered Corvette with it's 350 engine revving at 6000+ rpms, while frying the back tires in 1st gear.
3. "Eye candy". Even to a naive kid like me, the body style, body colors, lights, and seeing these trains whip by at speed often produced smiles and a feeling of excitement.
4. "Sentimentality" - Everyone has their story. My sister and I were blessed with wonderful parents. We only had one car and Dad drove it to work. Still, Mom had to get my sister and I school supplies, clothes, to doctor's appointments, Christmas shopping, etc. So about 20 to 30 times a year, we'd hear her announce: "Get dressed! We're going to take the subway!" Memories that I will always cherish. Just as with New Haven trains, I greatly enjoy thinking back to my childhood when I see vids like this. Subways,one of the few places on land one can get seasick. and they used to smell like rolling urinals,or were the day trains sanitized ? and if that didn't get you,the screeching brakes would give a splitting headache worthy of a 1/2 gallon of White Lightning, or a 6 pack of Ripple. New Yorkers must be Sensory Deprived to put up with riding all week,but owning a car in NYC might even be worse. and people model that ? Spikre |
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 21, 2014 11:57:42 GMT -8
 The trucks are a little bit out of place I sure hope they correct it before the cars go into production. Also the anticlimbers are supposed to be silver not black. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 21, 2014 12:27:48 GMT -8
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 21, 2014 12:35:09 GMT -8
The trucks are a little bit out of place I sure hope they correct it before the cars go into production. Also the anticlimbers are supposed to be silver not black. From early appearances, they look pretty good although it doesn't look like you can mix and match with the Proto 1000 version. The blue stripe looks a little lighter. |
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 21, 2014 15:38:03 GMT -8
Antoniofp45,
Today I called MTH and spoke to two different ladies to see if I could talk to Mike Wolf about the corrections to the mistakes of these NYC subway cars but no luck. These people at MTH don't seem to care and they are arrogant, so I decided to oh well let it go. I tell you this much for the price that MTH will charge for these models with inaccuracies I'll just simply pass and I'll keep my brass models. I try to get their attention on this matter and they hung the phone on my face. A friend of mine pointed out that MTH was like that and he was right. This is truly sad the way businesses conduct them selves these days.
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 21, 2014 15:57:26 GMT -8
This is why Antonio so that the coupler box could fit, which to me makes no sense because first of all the NYCTA cars don't use knuckle couplers. MTH should have used a smaller coupler box and use drawbars for the middle cars.  Photo by Paul Strubeck |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 21, 2014 19:00:41 GMT -8
BEDT26Thank you for the update and photo. It's really saddening that MTH's reps downplayed your concerns. Even if Mike Wolf was unavailable, the reps should have been professional enough to tell you that they'd make sure certain he would be made aware of the errors. By now MTH's personnel has to know that HO modelers that pay "premium prices" expect "premium accuracy!" I went to MTH's website and sent them an email regarding the anti-climber. If I receive a response, I'll post it here. Here's the web link to the form: www.mthtrains.com/content/contact-mth-electric-trainsRe: Coupling. My thinking is that rather than drawbars, a reasonable compromise like a Kadee #58 could be employed as some modelers may want the option of being able to makeup and breakup the trains in switching maneuvers. With smaller, close coupling kadees, the knuckles might not be as noticeable.
Rails4DMV,Regarding the color. For some of us it might not be a big deal as back then cars often didn't match each other due to infrequent washing, paint touch-ups, neglect, etc. Look here: www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?17912
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 21, 2014 19:13:29 GMT -8
Antoniofp45,
Thanks for your help, the lady rep told me to go ahead and write a letter not by email and send it in.
I'm not going to sorry to say, in my opinion the way they conducted them selves gives me the impression that they won't change the way the car's trucks are sitting. Or it might be too late by now.
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. (my warped way of thinking as a kid back then!)
