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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 0:00:53 GMT -8
OK, I already know there is no such thing, in 1:1.
I'm building a Kaslo SDL39 as a Rio Grande locomotive. I'm no standard gauge diesel expert, as I tend to buy them RTR. Nose lighting I can do and have already done. But the Rio Grande wouldn't have owned this thing without dynamic brakes, so that's the other big identifying feature I need to work out.
The non-dynamic brake hatch on the Kaslo model is 8.75' long by 6' wide. I know width is crucial here, can fudge length a little. Basically, since the loco was sorta part of the SD38/39 grouping do I have effectively the same room to work with? Or is this going another "special" part unique to the SDL39 due to squeezing everything in?
I suppose since I'm in fantasy land here, I can hack some old Tyco and call it good enough. But that wouldn't be fitting, since the rest of the loco is so nice. Just trying to keep things looking good and fitting easy.
I noticed Atlas has some SD and GP dynamic brake hatches, but those would be sans the detail parts, so not very economical to go that route. A donor loco that is otherwise trashed might be my best bet, but could spend for some parts if that looked like a better way to go here.
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 11, 2014 4:37:35 GMT -8
I would start with the Atlas hatches, there is no sense going halfway on this. First off though, are you wanting to replicate the typical two fan arrangement found on SD types, or the one fan arrangement found on GPs? If you want a two fan arrangement, I'd recommend the Atlas SD35 hatch. For one fan, go with the GP38/40 hatch. I don't know the prototype lengths for sure, but since this isnt quite prototype, adjustments can be justified. For detailing purposes, you would need lift rings (there probably be enough in the Kaslo kit) and fans. Personally, I have found the Kalso fans to be lacking (and their first generation fans are a giant PITA to work with), and I prefer to change them out with Cannon parts. Total cost for dynamic and radiator fans for the SDL39 would run about $20 or so. The other option would be is to find a junk SD35 or GP shell and strip parts from that, but IMO it will cost about the same as going the Cannon route and the Cannon fans look way better.
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Post by canrailfan on Aug 11, 2014 6:40:56 GMT -8
Given the limited roof area available on the SDL39 you might consider going with two 36 inch fans - dynamics 'lite' you might call it. An Atlas GP38 dynamic brake hatch, minus the air filter box at the front, could be a starting point. Fill in the 48 inch fan hole and re-configure with two 36 inch fans.
Looking forward to seeing how this project turns out.
David
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Post by bdhicks on Aug 11, 2014 6:53:50 GMT -8
You might consider doing like the DDM45 and having two 36" fans instead of one or two 48" fans. Obviously this would involve some extra modification to whatever dynamic hatch you choose.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 7:02:36 GMT -8
Chris, Thanks! That's a good start for me. I was up way too late when writing that, so thought I'd turn to the internet when the brain wasn't working too good.  I suspect a single fan DB is most likely to fit, but even there I'm not surfe without major issues. I know a lot of DB fans are 48" diameter. Two of those would leave me with just less than a foot to work with for the bodywork tapers on either side of the DB intake grille bulge, so I don't think that's going to work. On the SD45, the twin DB fans have an overall length of just over 9', but the taper isn't an issue since the big 45s have that full-length bulge along the top side of its hood. On the other hand, a single 48" DB fan leaves about two feet on either side for the taper. Even that's not really enough. Measured a GP7 and found that even a single 36" fan runs to 12' once the tapers are included. That wouldn't work, as there isn't 12' between the front of the radiator intake grille to the exhaust stack (it's about 11'). Sometimes the taper is flared into the hood sections on either side of the DB hatch, but I don't really have much to work with there, either. This makes me wonder if looking into export models or some of those odd arrangements used to provide DB on SW-series locos might be the place to look for ideas? Only problem is, I suspect that might be a DIY since I doubt there are any parts available for that. I have kludged together such an arrangement on my narrowgauge NW2M conversions, but not sure how believable this would be on a SD. Despite my tendency to color outside the lines of prototype modeling, a key part of my vision with such things remains believability. It's doesn't work unless you're convinced it plausibly could have happened.  The hunt continues... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 7:03:12 GMT -8
The area between the cooling fans and exhaust stack on the SDL39 is compressed. Since the Milwaukee didn't need dynamics for the service for which the SDL39 was ordered, EMD was able to take a slice out of the body and shorten it up.
I believe you will find any dynamic hatch is much too long and I'm talking about the grid portion. Even fitting in the bevels is going to be iffy. Even though you are on Fantasy Island with this project, prototype design dictates that you need space between the dynamic grids and your radiators. Prototype also would dictate two 36" fans at a minimum since this is a six motor unit.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 7:10:30 GMT -8
Chris and Brian,
Thanks for the ideas, helps fill in some more as I was writing.
Maybe I ought to try for a similar configurations as the GP 30. I am using the snowshields, so maybe I should go for a taper that blends into those somehow. It would have to transition from the snowshields, that are wide at the bottom, to where the DB intakes are angled into the hood at the bottom. That could get a little weird, but might work if I can get the angles to work together when everything is squished together so closely.
With an arrangement like that, I could push the DB fan forward, closer to the exhaust, leaving room for a more pleasing taper at the rear before getting to the radiator section. Hmmm, something to think about, as that would require me to fabricate the odd taper at the front.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 7:43:08 GMT -8
TSNIP Prototype also would dictate two 36" fans at a minimum since this is a six motor unit. Yeah, I was thinking that would be a good reason to have two fans. Lots of hardware down below to make heat. Which is an argument for using an arrangement like on the SD45, which packs in two 48" fans in a space 9' long. I've got to retain the flare where the DB intakes reside, but now I'm wondering if EMD ever builit a DB that flared AND didn't have the bevels at each end or otherwise run into the adjoining space for esthetic purposes. This go me thinking so, I pulled the SD40T-2s from staging. This area on the Tunnel Motors was surprisingly compact considering how big the loco is, just a nudge over 16' and include two 48" DBfans. They are in a section the same size as on the 45s, at 9' long. A 2' or so slice could be taken out of the 16', in between the exghauste and the beginning of the DB hatch. That would just fit between the back of the snowshields and the the radiator intakes. And I could call it a "Baby Tunnel Motor," which would be very fitting -- except I'm not going to reconfigure the radiators. Hmmm, this might work...   The prospect of cutting up a Tunnel Motor to obtain said part is a bit off-putting. I need to find a hulk I can salvage. I know nothing of SD40s, as the Rio Grande had none. Was its DB area similar to the Tunnel Motors? Finding one of those to cut will be much easier and probably cheaper than a Tunnel Motor. |
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 11, 2014 7:58:19 GMT -8
Consider the SD35 vs. SDL39. Below are couple of photos of these units. Looking at the SDL39, you'll note that there are 8 engine compartment doors beneath where the dynamic brake hatch would sit. Compare this to the SD35, which has 10 doors in the same area. This equates to approximately 36" difference in the length of the dynamic brake hatch. Looking at the GP38-2, it also has 8 doors under the dynamic brake hatch like the SDL39, but an additional two doors under the exhaust stack. You could probably tighten this up a bit though. As mentioned in other posts, I agree that two 36" fans would be much more likely on the prototype as well. SDL39  SDP35 (Identical around the dynamic brake hatch area)  GP38-2  |
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 11, 2014 8:08:22 GMT -8
TSNIP Prototype also would dictate two 36" fans at a minimum since this is a six motor unit. Yeah, I was thinking that would be a good reason to have two fans. Lots of hardware down below to make heat. Which is an argument for using an arrangement like on the SD45, which packs in two 48" fans in a space 9' long. I've got to retain the flare where the DB intakes reside, but now I'm wondering if EMD ever builit a DB that flared AND didn't have the bevels at each end or otherwise run into the adjoining space for esthetic purposes. This go me thinking so, I pulled the SD40T-2s from staging. This area on the Tunnel Motors was surprisingly compact considering how big the loco is, just a nudge over 16' and include two 48" DBfans. They are in a section the same size as on the 45s, at 9' long. A 2' or so slice could be taken out of the 16', in between the exghauste and the beginning of the DB hatch. That would just fit between the back of the snowshields and the the radiator intakes. And I could call it a "Baby Tunnel Motor," which would be very fitting -- except I'm not going to reconfigure the radiators. Hmmm, this might work... [Photos Removed] The prospect of cutting up a Tunnel Motor to obtain said part is a bit off-putting. I need to find a hulk I can salvage. I know nothing of SD40s, as the Rio Grande had none. Was its DB area similar to the Tunnel Motors? Finding one of those to cut will be much easier and probably cheaper than a Tunnel Motor. Looking at your photos, there definately seems to be just enough space, particularly if you used 36" fans. Two 36" fans would require a bit more space than a single 48", but less than a pair. Maybe the solution would be to take an Atlas GP40 hatch, and slice out a small section in the middle of the grille section to adjust the length down to the size needed for the 36" fans. Using the GP40 hatch would allow you the option of using the atlas exhaust stack and wouldnt have the details associated with the dual exhaust stacks on the GP38s. |
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 8:18:31 GMT -8
Chris, Thanks for the useful pics. A little compressed in length in your post, but they're OK when I go to Reply. Weird. Maybe I can pass some parts through that filter to squeeze them down to just the space I need? They do illustrate Jim's caution that I really should go for two DB fans here. So I take it the GP38/SD38/SDP35 group used 36" DB fans? Whatever it is, seems to have worked for Uncle Pete. Definitely a possibility, but I have nothing like that here to measure from to see what fits, though. maybe someone who has one of these could give us some measurements of theirs? Availability of a donor hulk may be the sticking point to using any of these. I think any and all SDP35s are brass. They certainly make a handsome looking loco, though. |
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 8:22:54 GMT -8
Looking at your photos, there definately seems to be just enough space, particularly if you used 36" fans. Two 36" fans would require a bit more space than a single 48", but less than a pair. Maybe the solution would be to take an Atlas GP40 hatch, and slice out a small section in the middle of the grille section to adjust the length down to the size needed for the 36" fans. Using the GP40 hatch would allow you the option of using the atlas exhaust stack and wouldnt have the details associated with the dual exhaust stacks on the GP38s. Chris, I could even see EMD doing something like that, so that's another possibility. Going to the scratch and dent hobby shop to get some Squadron Green today to heal some of my errors so will check to see what I might get lucky and find there. |
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 11, 2014 8:54:39 GMT -8
Chris, Thanks for the useful pics. A little compressed in length in your post, but they're OK when I go to Reply. Weird. Maybe I can pass some parts through that filter to squeeze them down to just the space I need? They do illustrate Jim's caution that I really should go for two DB fans here. So I take it the GP38/SD38/SDP35 group used 36" DB fans? Whatever it is, seems to have worked for Uncle Pete. Definitely a possibility, but I have nothing like that here to measure from to see what fits, though. maybe someone who has one of these could give us some measurements of theirs? Availability of a donor hulk may be the sticking point to using any of these. I think any and all SDP35s are brass. They certainly make a handsome looking loco, though. The SD35 used the 48" size fan for the dynamic brakes, so using 36" fans ought to reduce the length. Actually, your reply got me thinking here, the SD24 used 36" fans, why not use a SD24 hatch? The hatch is much shorter at 6 doors (although the doors may be wider). The problem is that the hatch is not a separate part on the atlas shell. However, replacement shells can be found on ebay for just over $6. The same seller has the atlas fans available as well. I will add, that I would go with Cannon fans, instead of Atlas, but I'll leave that to you. www.ebay.com/itm/SD24-HIGH-NOSE-BODY-CB-Q-ATLAS-HO-Scale-/371117862992?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5668593050www.ebay.com/itm/SD24-SD26-COMPLETE-FAN-SET-ATLAS-HO-/351143182164?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51c1c3bf54 |
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Post by dtinut on Aug 11, 2014 9:48:11 GMT -8
Maybe use the GP35 d/b hatch from Kato?
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 9:59:17 GMT -8
Chris,
I think we have a winner. At least I went ahead with getting the SD24 shell and fans (despite the cursed every-changing and always inscrutable ebay checkout - Why does combined shipping still seem so hard?) I can always upgrade the fans later, plus I'm not sure my work is going to be upscale enough here to warrant the extra expense.
dtinut,
Good suggestion, but it's kinda long at 15 feet (presuming the exhaust hatch is included.) I've only got a space about 12' long to fit it in.
The good thing about the SD24 DB arrangement is the the flare to accommodate the DB intake/grids is less pronounced, so the need for the bevel/taper is much less. I think this is probably about the best solution in the tight space available. I found a IRM drawing of the SD24 and it appears that the arrangement of the segment of the hood is almost identical to the are on the SDL39. Same number of doors, although I suspect the doors are a little wider. I cam up with about 11.5 feet as the length of the area on the SD24, which makes it a little long on first impression to fit the ~9' are on the SDL39. However, the end bevel area can be recessed on the top to fit in that opening, with the bevels projecting/overlapping the area by the exhaust hatch and just ahead of the radiator grilles.
That's what I hope, not having the SD24 shell in hand yet. If anyone has measurements off the actual model, that could help me in planning. Otherwise, supposed to be here for the weekend and I can sort it out then.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 14:54:10 GMT -8
If anyone has measurements off the actual model, that could help me in planning. 11 feet in length. Hood width on the Atlas shell is 6 feet. The blister itself is 7.5 feet at its widest part. |
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Post by bnsf971 on Aug 11, 2014 15:07:57 GMT -8
I tried suggesting this earlier, but I guess the forum crashed about that time. How about a hatch from an Atlas Trainman GP39-2? It only has the one fan, but since you're doing a "what-if?" engine, possibly one fan would be all that EMD or DRGW thought they needed.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 15:08:55 GMT -8
If anyone has measurements off the actual model, that could help me in planning. 11 feet in length. Hood width on the Atlas shell is 6 feet. The blister itself is 7.5 feet at its widest part. Jim, Thanks for taking out the ruler for me. I was guesstimating between online drawings and what I had on hand, so went a little long on my estimate. Hood width matches exactly, so that's good news, too. I'll cut the hatch in a "saddle-bag" or "H" configuration, with the bevels protruding out a foot and hanging down on each end of the 9' full width center section, giving me 11' feet. The shorter bevels of the SD24 will work well here where there's no enough length for the longer bevels of some other applications. |
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 15:11:07 GMT -8
I tried suggesting this earlier, but I guess the forum crashed about that time. How about a hatch from an Atlas Trainman GP39-2? It only has the one fan, but since you're doing a "what-if?" engine, possibly one fan would be all that EMD or DRGW thought they needed. Terry, WI Jim suggested the dual fans are pretty much required with six-axles underneath in other similar EMD applications and I think that's a pretty good theory. Got parts on the way now, but I appreciate you weighing in. |
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Post by bdhicks on Aug 11, 2014 16:58:01 GMT -8
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 17:01:40 GMT -8
I found a couple of photos on Don Strack's excellent website that illustrate how well the SD-24 DB hatch should work. This first one is of the back half of a UP SD24 DB. Since I have a winterization hatch going on the 1st radiator fan, it should fit just like this. I may have to do a narrow piece of trim to account for how the DB matches the filter section in how they stand proud of the rest of the hood side by maybe 3". Depnds on how thick Atlas made the plastic back there, it could take care of itself. donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Locomotive-Details/SD24/i-tWMxDnz/AThe next pic is the front half of the DB hatch. The bevel is rather complex, but short enough in length to work here. It should fit pretty much like it does here, except the bevel part will overlap the exhaust hatch area by about a foot on either side, with the middle cut out to fit around that. donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Locomotive-Details/SD24/i-tWMxDnz/A |
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 17:06:47 GMT -8
The GP39-2 dynamic hatch is the same size as the GP40-2 hatch. The GP39-2 design makes up for this by shortening the radiator. I see you've decided to go another route and other than the units like the SD45 with wide radiators I don't know of any units that came new from EMD without tapered ends on the dynamic brakes, but there's a variety of units that were modified by railroads and rebuilders to have flat ends: SNIP Brian, Thanks, the pics are still useful. I now have license to bob that bevel if I need to to make things fit. Hoping to avoid that, but it can be done per the Real World. |
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 11, 2014 17:32:39 GMT -8
Something to keep in mind, I noticed in the MILW SDL39 photos, that they were equipped with a long winterization hatch. I would expect that this hatch would interfere with the dynamic brake fans, so have a plan for that. (I'm assuming that you plan on installing a winterization hatch in the first place, as I don't recall seeing DRGW units with them)
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 18:31:04 GMT -8
Chris,
I debated that, since it wasn't a customary application for Rio Grande units to have. In the end, I figured since they were willing to experiment a little, they went with it on this "order" along with the snow shields. I think it will fit, at least if it all goes together like in the first SD24 pic. I am planning on working it in, but since I've not got a lot of extra space to work with, it'll be dropped if there's a conflict.
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Post by catt on Aug 11, 2014 18:56:04 GMT -8
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Post by mlehman on Aug 11, 2014 23:07:15 GMT -8
Catt, Thanks for the tip, will file it for future needs. I went with the linked items suggested on page one from sooo-much-stuff. They caught the bungled attempt to combine shipping, refunded the difference and had it all out the door before 6pm CDT, with a promise of Friday delivery. If all goes well, another good vendor to know. www.ebay.com/usr/sooo-much-stuff?_trksid=p2047675.l2559 |
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Post by mlehman on Aug 13, 2014 16:51:24 GMT -8
Pics on the fly... The nose is starting to look Rio Grande-ish:  I can highly recommend the above ebay vendor for putting the parts in my mailbox in less than 48 hours for just the cost of Priority Mail. The SD24 compared and the SDL39 fresh out of it's makeover surgery.     And I have a SD24 high hood left over, great place for a steam generator...nah, at least not yet |
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Post by catt on Aug 13, 2014 19:35:48 GMT -8
That hatch looks like it belongs there.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 13, 2014 20:27:29 GMT -8
That hatch looks like it belongs there. That's exactly the effect I'm trying to achieve here. It looks right, even if it never was.  And I am totally kidding about a steam generator here. That and the tank for its feedwater would probably put her out of the L class, defeating the purpose of having a lightweight, yet powerful locomotive. I've been eyeing picking up one of the Athearn SDP45s, but it hasn't survived budget cuts so far. Doing research for the SDL39 caused me to stumble across the Atlas SDP35s. I'll probably scratch that particular passenger itch eventually. |
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 14, 2014 3:33:49 GMT -8
Looks great!
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I suspect a single fan DB is most likely to fit, but even there I'm not surfe without major issues. 
