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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 23, 2014 16:38:36 GMT -8
I'm still waiting for my Genesis ABBA GN simplified passenger F's.
I would have also bought their recent BSB F's. I, in fact, pre-ordered them and checked them out at my local. Sadly, the assemble quality was so bad that I didn't feel I could fix them and so rejected them.
I certainly hope my simplified ones, when they're produced, are put together by the A team.
Ed
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Post by atsfan on Aug 23, 2014 18:06:44 GMT -8
FYI. At some point the economy is going to catch up to those "better cars" at the $40+ price point... Anybody who would do a "better ACF5250" at this time would be taking a real risk... Exactrail has a lot of "better detailed" stock which are aren't selling well (CoilShields, bulkheads, centerbeams, 60' Berwick box...), and BLMA, and Tangent (despite how great their cars are), and Walthers, and... Even the great Spring Creek Pd3000s don't seem to be selling as fast as they should be. Here is the Catch-22 the manufacturers currently face... Highly detailed cars in the $35-55 range sell to a far smaller share of the market (and typically in smaller numbers per order) than the lesser detailed $20 cars, but yet the online forums seem to be chock full of those few wanting the more detailed cars. The market really isn't big enough for both so in many/most cases (but of course not all) there's going to be one or the other, and in the cases where the other already exists then some are going to have to accept it... And to most of those in the hobby, paint (or paint schemes) sell better than details. Amen. Those cars also sell in fewer numbers . People might still buy, but they buy fewer.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 23, 2014 18:18:29 GMT -8
I can safely say I won't ever get any of these models. Not because I don't want any. Because it is almost impossible to get Athearn. They only make exact to preorders. Many large stores don't pre order any more. Just maybe email notices. Atfhearn is losing sales in their quest for zero inventory. If Athearn is losing sales, then why do they sell out of just about everything they produce? You can remedy your dilemma simply by submitting a preorder.
DonnellI don't have a dilemma. If the product ain't there I won't buy it. My life will go on well without. As for lost sales, you analogy would flunk any Econ 101 course. Simply selling out means exactly nothing. There is a sales and costs chart that any smart company pushes to the profit maximization point. If Athearn makes 4 LPG tank cars and sells them all, they are losing sales by not meeting demand that exists, and not maximizing profits. And yes, past the point is aging inventory which does not maximize profits. Simply put Athearn has decided to just take an extreme position. As for simply pre ordering, it isn't that simple. None of the stores I buy from do pre orders. A few use to but stopped due to being shorted and by getting stuck with people Who pre order from multiple stores hoping to catch one that get the product. I am not talking small stores, large ones. Successful ones. Name one other discretionary spending area that tries to force people into ridiculous 10 month pre order only buying, and then having multiple quality issues, lateness, and delivery shortages ? Radio control ? No. Golf, hunting, fishing, dirt bikes, etc, etc? No. Cameras? No. People simply end up with other things to do with their time and money. Some of that may be on other areas of the model train hobby . But much will be elsewhere.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 23, 2014 18:19:07 GMT -8
FYI. I watched a bunch of (what some others would call "blob 'o plastic") Bev-Bel 50' ACF special painted boxcars (yes the Athearn blue box 50' car with the sliding doors, clasps many call unrealistic, and incorrect roof) sell for $30 plus in the past month in auctions... to those more interested in the paint than the details. Collectors. There is a following.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 23, 2014 18:21:00 GMT -8
Yes, especially when the costs of doing another run of F-units is basically just the minor details and painting... And Athearn knows the window of opportunity of cashing in on all those who want 1950s-1970s items is passing by faster than the window of opportunity on modern items. Which segment of the market do you think is decreasing more due to age, limited incomes, passing on to the roundhouse in the sky, etc... Those modeling the 1950s? Or those modeling current day? There will probably be a point when the announcements are predominated by 1980s and 1990s items but that time is in the future, and the point when most 2010 items predominate will follow that if the hobby is still around... We are starting to see this with all of the GEVO announcements for example.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 23, 2014 18:24:41 GMT -8
Not only using it but charging high prices as if it is new tooling. Seriously, atsfan? $19.98 MSRP with what will likely be ~$15 street price is a high new-tooling price? :sigh: Anyway, to bring the thread back on topic of August announcements... Athearn continues to push out F-units like there's no tomorrow. I model a more modern era and haven't done the research to postulate one way or another, but I'm curious - is there really that much demand remaining for new Genesis and RTR F units to be released what seams to be at least twice a year? Yes $20 is very high pricing for 30 year old tooling. And Athearn has cut their discount so you won't find them at $15. I bought 10 blue box kits recently of this exact same model for $21. Yes I had to assemble them which took only a few minutes each.
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Post by curtmc on Aug 23, 2014 21:18:04 GMT -8
The early runs of the RTR ACF5250 cars had great paint (much better than the old blue box versions), metal wheels, and although retailing for about $13 were at Timonium shows for about $7-9 each...
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Post by Judge Doom on Aug 24, 2014 0:00:22 GMT -8
FYI. I watched a bunch of (what some others would call "blob 'o plastic") Bev-Bel 50' ACF special painted boxcars (yes the Athearn blue box 50' car with the sliding doors, clasps many call unrealistic, and incorrect roof) sell for $30 plus in the past month in auctions... to those more interested in the paint than the details. Collectors. There is a following. Same with all those Micro Trains N-scale cars that sell for outrageous prices, some of which are specially painted, f-word cars, or promotional (think Athearn John Deere and Coca Cola stuff in HO). Modelers aren't buying those, collectors are.
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Post by Brakie on Aug 24, 2014 0:27:51 GMT -8
FYI. I watched a bunch of (what some others would call "blob 'o plastic") Bev-Bel 50' ACF special painted boxcars (yes the Athearn blue box 50' car with the sliding doors, clasps many call unrealistic, and incorrect roof) sell for $30 plus in the past month in auctions... to those more interested in the paint than the details. Collectors. There is a following. Yes,that's a rather large group I'm afraid..What makes it bad is the new buy at all cost collectors that drives the price up of common cars that is readily available at most train shows for $5.00 or in some cases 3/$10.00. The true higher cost collectable cars are the one run wonders like Berlin Mills Railroad,Spencerville & Elgin,Aberdeen & Rockfish,Louisiana Midland,Rahway Valley,Mississippi & Skuna Valley among other like names.
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Post by mkulak on Aug 24, 2014 3:56:06 GMT -8
Toy like might be a bit harsh for the model: The former AHM, Tyco, IHC, and probably several other companies 5250cf would be closer to that statement especially with both long and round hatches on the top! but as said with the price point and the age of the model(molded in the late 60's early 70's) it is way past it prime. Isn't "The 5250 is such a blob of plastic!" a bit harsh also? Anyway, regardless of the euphemisms, most agree that the tooling is showing it's age, although some folks will still be satisfied as we've seen by comments here. I still have some older models including Athearn bb and MDC, and heck, I've even picked up a few MDC bulkheads recently as "stand-in's" but right now I don't see myself adding anymore 5250 hoppers to one or two that I have right now. The tooling is really is past it's prime as you mentioned. Anyway, if Athearn sells them, someone must be buying them. Also, if it helps Athearn stay in the game and bringing other better models to market, that's not so bad. OK, I take it back and change it to piece of plastic with wheels, Is that less harsh?? As mentioned by Brakie, the higher end cars have some problems: Exactrail Coil car: Non-removable hood(it really does not bother me but some modelers were un-happy this) Exactrail Centerbeam: Some warping of the frame causing bad tracking. Exactrail bulkhead: Warping Issues also as well as bad assembly on some cars. Tangent: hoppers really sell according to roadname, Milwaukees, CNW, IC, ICG, BN, sell out quickly, some of the other more unique Roadnames take longer. Spring Mills: Great car! but you can only get it through their website which is a bit of a negative. They need to get this car out somehow more to the MR Public at hand. I know they sell them at shows I would recommend Ebay. A Canadian dealer just had two up recently and they sold for a pretty penny. All the above cars are great cars and in no way am I bashing them or the manufacturers. Just pointing out some of the problems myself and some of my MR Friends have run into with these cars, not all of them, but quite a few.
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Post by Brakie on Aug 24, 2014 4:20:15 GMT -8
OK, I take it back and change it to piece of plastic with wheels, Is that less harsh?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IMHO better would be "antiquated cars" and you won't end up offending anybody based on you dislike of anything less then the preferred models that fits your modeling style..
Many of us still likes those antiquated BB and Roundhouse cars in fact I haven't seen that many higher end IPD boxcars I would trade for any of my IPD boxcars for on a even bases.
Why? To be blunt where's the thrill of the chase and then obtaining the trophy?
When I snagged my Bev-Bel/Athearn Berlin Mills RR boxcar I felt like I just won a Academy Award since it was a rather long chase.
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Post by notabob on Aug 24, 2014 4:49:32 GMT -8
OK, I take it back and change it to piece of plastic with wheels, Is that less harsh?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IMHO better would be "antiquated cars" and you won't end up offending anybody based on you dislike of anything less then the preferred models that fits your modeling style.. Many of us still likes those antiquated BB and Roundhouse cars in fact I haven't seen that many higher end IPD boxcars I would trade for any of my IPD boxcars for on a even bases. Why? To be blunt where's the thrill of the chase and then obtaining the trophy? When I snagged my Bev-Bel/Athearn Berlin Mills RR boxcar I felt like I just won a Academy Award since it was a rather long chase. Shhh! Don't tell anyone. Or they'll roll their eyes at you and call you a collector who's ruining the hobby for the rest of us!
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Post by riogrande on Aug 24, 2014 4:52:30 GMT -8
]OK, I take it back and change it to piece of plastic with wheels, Is that less harsh?? No worries. But to be fair also, the old 5250 hopper from Athearn can appear toy-like to some relative to the better offerings of more recent. The ER Coil Cars are off my radar but understand the complaint. The Centerbeam cars I have a couple and one of them I had to return/exchange 3 or 4 times because the bottom was bowed, and even the final one sent to me which Blaine said he inspects still has a slight bow to it but by then I was just tired of exchanging models. I would like one or two more but am a bit gun shy now. The ER bulkheads are too modern for me, I'm waiting on bulkheads that fit my 70's and 80's era. The IMR cars were "decent enough" for a lot less cost than the much more expensive Tangent cars so I haven't bought any so far, and if anything money is getting tighter lately. Anyway, it's not a perfect world. I guess we are getting off the topic here - I am not against Athearn continuing to produce RTR versions of their old tooling blue box cars; like anything people have lots of choices which is good. A wide array of products to chose from.
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Post by catt on Aug 24, 2014 7:09:54 GMT -8
I have nothing against the uber expencive cars they have their place in this hobby just not in my budget.I'll just buy the blue box type and add the details I want myself.You can knock the more expencive blue box type cars but remember plastic comes from oil and you know what gas prices are like and why.
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Post by 12bridge on Aug 24, 2014 7:31:41 GMT -8
I never thought it to be true, but if you don't believe the low end (bluebox, lifelike, etc) stuff sells, go to a train show and watch the "junk" tables. A perfect example, go watch any of the facebook HO for sale groups and watch what sells, and what does not...
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Post by Brakie on Aug 24, 2014 7:58:15 GMT -8
I never thought it to be true, but if you don't believe the low end (bluebox, lifelike, etc) stuff sells, go to a train show and watch the "junk" tables. A perfect example, go watch any of the facebook HO for sale groups and watch what sells, and what does not... Accurail,Trainman and the older long out of production Atlas cars sells quite well.I've picked up several of Atlas's older Precision Designed boxcars for $12.00 each at various train shows. There are AHM collectors as well as collectors of TYCO,train set Life Like and the white box and early Spectrum Bachmann.. I reckon this hobby has all types in its ranks.
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Aug 24, 2014 9:06:44 GMT -8
I've bee pretty lucky with the Athearn products I've purchased over the past few years. And the few that had issues Athearn quickly remedied the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 9:12:10 GMT -8
Athearn continues to push out F-units like there's no tomorrow. I model a more modern era and haven't done the research to postulate one way or another, but I'm curious - is there really that much demand remaining for new Genesis and RTR F units to be released what seams to be at least twice a year? Darn tooting there is demand for more Genesis F's. A bit of a history lesson.... When Athearn first started doing the Genesis F's in about 2001 there was no road specific detailing, no skirt removal and the drive had some issues. Also the sound was the infamous MRC...YUCK! The Genesis F was modified in 2007 by Athearn to allow de-skirting, the chassis also had to be modified to accept the modifications to the body and the sound was upgraded to Tsunami and it ran a lot better with fewer issues. Many of the big name roads were done during the generic and MRC period. For instance Great Northern and Northern Pacific passenger F's. Athearn has never revisited these two examples in the new era. The lack of a detailed GN passenger F, is one reason the Walthers GN passenger F's which feature snow plow pilots and all the fancy added venting and pipes of a late 50's to BN GN passneger F. BN F's also fall into this category. Athearn can also release Santa Fe passenger F's nearly every year and sell them out. There are also schemes like SP&S broad band which have never been done. The F-unit is a still a very fertile field which Athearn can continue to release needed and wanted models for many many years to come.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Aug 24, 2014 10:19:16 GMT -8
I don't have a dilemma. If the product ain't there I won't buy it. My life will go on well without. As for lost sales, your analogy would flunk any Econ 101 course. Simply selling out means exactly nothing. There is a sales and costs chart that any smart company pushes to the profit maximization point. If Athearn makes 4 LPG tank cars and sells them all, they are losing sales by not meeting demand that exists, and not maximizing profits. And yes, past the point is aging inventory which does not maximize profits. Simply put Athearn has decided to just take an extreme position. Obviously Athearn makes more than just 4 of whatever it is that they are selling. In fact, your post stated that, "They only make to exact preorders". Apparently, This is the demand they deemed necessary to move forward or else they would have cancelled or postponed the project, as has been done many time before. Also, Athearn sells many other lower cost items whose tooling costs have fully amortized and paid for themselves many times over. These items supplement the higher dollar Genesis items and help offset some of the production costs of those high-dollar items.
So again, losing sales...I would say no. You can make the item available to you by preorder. But you will lose out if you rely on overages to fill you modeling needs.
Well, you'll have to keep searching until you find a store that will accept preorders. You can also order direct from Athearn. And as for shops not participating in the preorder process because of multiple preorders at various stores by customers, they must square that up with their customers. Athearn, and other companies that use a preorder system don't care who orders their product, they are just concerned with how many to make. Enough orders, and the model is produced. Not enough orders, the model is canceled. Pretty simple to me.
Donnell
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Post by Brakie on Aug 24, 2014 10:36:36 GMT -8
Donnell,Here's my method and it works quite well..
I wait until the engine or car I want is release and go directly to M.B.Klein or any of the better on line shops and make my purchase..
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Post by marknycfan on Aug 24, 2014 15:29:22 GMT -8
And still no HO Scale genesis GP-9 in New Haven yet!!!
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Post by curtmc on Aug 24, 2014 22:27:36 GMT -8
Donnell and all, I'll repeat myself...
1) Many people in this hobby do not, and will not, preorder items. Many shops - including many major shops who have been shorted on items* - no longer do it. Manufacturers begging for preorders, or short shipping to supposedly penalize those who don't, isn't going to change that. The result is lost sales. (* one of the biggest messes in the hobby is a shop with 10 or 20 preorders that only gets 5 items - resulting in that shop having to play favorites and ticking some off in the process)
2) Underproduction - matching production to only preorders - is losing sales - losing the high number of potential sales to those who see something done well and then decide to get it. The result is lost sales. Preordering and made to order takes most of the spontaneous purchases out of the hobby - and those are what hobby shops thrived on.
3) #2 is why so many hobby shops are failing. They can't get restocks of items done well - and most don't have the cash flow to order a lot up front. The result is lost sales.
4) Fewer hobby shops means less sales outlets and less product visibility. The result is lost sales.
BTW. I have had more than one company tell me that despite a wider array of offerings and more new items announced per year/month that their sales are significantly down from a decade ago.
Then there's the bigger issue that the preorder game brings with it - the inability to see something before buying it. Right now I have a dealer 500 miles away getting ready to ship me $400+ dollars in Athearn items that I think Athearn botched the paint on but (1) Athearn doesn't have photos of the actual production items on their web site (only preproduction artwork and the pre-production samples - which don't match), (2) that dealer can't tell me exactly what color the cars are (and photos in the packaging can be deceptive), and (3) I will not be able to compare the cars to prior runs until I get them (and no, I don't plan to weather them to try to hide a different color). So do I tell the dealer to not ship them and send them back to Horizon based on the photos I've seen of the cars? Do I get them and then if wrong deal with Athearn/Horizon myself and try to get my $400+ back and pay the shipping back on their defects?
Then there's the latest SD50 that I preordered and that arrived with bowed chassis. Dealer didn't want to deal with the issue. I've emailed Athearn a few times - and had one reply that they were sending the inquiry to the proper department - but after 2 more weeks nothing yet... When a manufacturer doesn't even make enough items to take care of QA/QC issues, or doesn't offer replacements, then how long is it until consumers lose their trust in that company?
The preorder scheme is what many would say leads to an "end game". It only exists until the point preorder numbers drop to the subcontractor minimums. And every error leads to dissatisfaction and then fewer future preorders. At some point the manufacturer has to either go back to making more than preordered, do a lot of product cancellations (which erodes the preorder scheme on the basis of consumer mistrust), and then as preorders and sales dry up they eventually fold up.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 25, 2014 6:19:08 GMT -8
This is all a self licking ice cream cone. Cut back to pre order only. Pre order is spotty at best. Not everyone can or does preorder. Dealers closing weekly. Shorting of orders. Delivery delays. Quality problems. Raise prices. Sell fewer to cover costs. Wash, rinse, repeat.
For me personally I have plenty of stuff. But still it does look not look rosey.
Exactrail's model may be the end game.
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Post by Brakie on Aug 25, 2014 7:42:53 GMT -8
Exactrail's model may be the end game. ---------------------------------- Indeed seeing how you order direct from the major manufacturers.. I remember that old saying from Walthers-"Your dealer can get it from Walthers." Now its: "visit our web site @ www.walthers.com". The hobby grew up, modernized and left a lot of modelers standing in its wake asking "what happen?" Some of us old heads adjusted to the modernization while other old heads don't like it.. I like the convenience of on line shopping at discount but,still the Saturday morning trip to the LHS is missed as well as the gathering of modelers--no forum will ever replace that.
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Post by grahamline on Aug 25, 2014 9:03:25 GMT -8
Exactrail (and Tangent) at least provide multiple clear photos of products well in advance of the order deadline. They know how to take advantage of direct sales mode. Athearn last week said "Hey, guys, we're making GP9B units in Pennsy and UP. Here are the part numbers." No photos, no nothing.
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Post by Brakie on Aug 25, 2014 9:17:47 GMT -8
Exactrail (and Tangent) at least provide multiple clear photos of products well in advance of the order deadline. They know how to take advantage of direct sales mode. Athearn last week said "Hey, guys, we're making GP9B units in Pennsy and UP. Here are the part numbers." No photos, no nothing. I suspect that's because the preproduction test model hasn't been built yet..
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Post by dti406 on Aug 25, 2014 10:09:04 GMT -8
Exactrail (and Tangent) at least provide multiple clear photos of products well in advance of the order deadline. They know how to take advantage of direct sales mode. Athearn last week said "Hey, guys, we're making GP9B units in Pennsy and UP. Here are the part numbers." No photos, no nothing. The nice thing about Tangent is when they announce something, they have the model in their hands and it is ready for sale and shipment. No Pre-orders. Rick J
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Post by stevewagner on Aug 25, 2014 11:17:22 GMT -8
That's ONE of the nice things about Tangent. Another is that their models are highly detailed. Another is that their paint jobs and lettering accurately reproduce those of the real cars they represent.
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Post by curtmc on Aug 25, 2014 11:23:21 GMT -8
And the downfall of the Tangent/E-Rail model of not announcing until the product is in stock (or "on the water") is that any errors they make in the research or artwork can't be identified and corrected... And they end up with a large stock of mispainted/misprinted stock that ends up in stock for years, having to be severely discounted, or even given away (as freebies with qualifying orders)...
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Post by atsfan on Aug 25, 2014 14:35:42 GMT -8
And the downfall of the Tangent/E-Rail model of not announcing until the product is in stock (or "on the water") is that any errors they make in the research or artwork can't be identified and corrected... And they end up with a large stock of mispainted/misprinted stock that ends up in stock for years, having to be severely discounted, or even given away (as freebies with qualifying orders)... I will take Tangent freebies. I have not seen that deal?
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