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Post by riogrande on Aug 25, 2014 7:45:59 GMT -8
Is there something on the market which I could use in lieu of sheet homasote. I like using homasote for yards - it holds track nails well enough until track is fixed by ballasting. I wouldn't mind finding a thinner substitute. Is homasote made in thinner sheets or is there a product out the in sheet form which would serve as a good substitute?
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 25, 2014 8:10:51 GMT -8
Cork is available thin sheets, far thinner than homasote. I picked up a roll about 2 feet wide at a local craft store awhile back.
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Post by riogrande on Aug 25, 2014 8:44:36 GMT -8
I had considered cork but prefer a material that will also hold spikes or nails. I may just go with homasote but am checking for alternatives first.
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Post by wp8thsub on Aug 25, 2014 9:04:54 GMT -8
I used to go for Homasote sheet for yards and Homabed for roadbed elsewhere. I use mostly Micro Engineering and Shinohara track, so I preferred to have a substrate that would hold small spikes. On my current layout, I used Homasote in some areas as I got several sheets cheap from someone who was moving. For the first time, however, I switched to acrylic/latex caulk for tracklaying, eliminating the need for most spikes. With that, I also eventually changed to sheet cork for yards and regular cork roadbed in between. I find the track goes down and stays aligned better than it ever did with spikes. In places where I do need spikes, I can drill through the tie (with a pin vise) and down into the underlying plywood or spline so the spike will go in and hold. This is useful for installing ground throws.
A huge advantage of cork sheet is even thickness. Homasote tends to have an undulating surface, and I was filling all over the place to avoid dips in the track. All that work is unnecessary with cork.
Otherwise, for thinner Homasote, you could try sheets from Cal Roadbed, but they're an expensive option.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 25, 2014 10:05:00 GMT -8
Jim,
I use cork throughout (mostly ME and a little Shinohara), with the exception of a couple of spots on my oldest narrowgauge that have homasote. What I am really doing is spiking into the underlying subroadbed, the plywood, with the cork in between as a cushioning. I used Medium ME spikes for some of it, but find them too coarse. What works best with cork and plywood are the Walthers/Shinohara spikes (948-360). They are the right length so that just the tip goes into the plywood, but sharp and short enough to hold the track firmly without needing to push harder on the spike.
Not trying to convert you to my methods, just pointing out that you could use the cork that was suggested, but you'd be spiking into what's underneath that, not the cork, for holding power unless the spikes you're using are really short. And you can taper cork roadbed. I sand it, but there are other ways.
Good quality Strathmore and other high-density cardboards are available at the art supply store, so you could "step" things down by layering them in different lengths, also. I presume you're sealing the homasote, but if not, sealing this stuff with paint should make ballasting and scenicking not a problem if you don't get too much moisture on it. Or you can use layers of styrene to do the same, but I generally use it only for fine adjustments where needed because of the expense. But if you need a lot of it, you could buy a 4x8 sheet and cut it up pretty cheap. Although it holds spikes well, it can be a PITA to spike into without a pilot holes if very thick.
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Post by ambluco on Aug 25, 2014 10:32:01 GMT -8
Mike Confalone (Allagash Railway) uses sheets of cork for yards and strips for other areas. According to his how-to articles, they hold everything just fine until it all dries.
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Post by valenciajim on Aug 25, 2014 11:09:10 GMT -8
I have used 1/2" Homasote in my yards. I think Homabed has a thinner sheet that can be used for yards, but I have never used it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 12:57:46 GMT -8
They are the right length so that just the tip goes into the plywood, but sharp and short enough to hold the track firmly without needing to push harder on the spike. Jim is not using plywood on his layout, he's using flake board or oriented strand board. That stuff is harder than cement and driving a tiny spike into may not be too easy. OSB's surface is also not as smooth as plywood. Cork doesn't do well on a surface which is a little rough. Homasote on the other hand is much more rigid and will give the track a flatter surface even if it is laid on OSB versus plywood. I'd never used OSB for the sub roadbed. 3/4 inch cherry plywood is expensive but in the end its smoothness and resistance to warping will make you much happier five years from now. OSB and moisture is a BIG issue. |
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Post by riogrande on Aug 25, 2014 13:08:33 GMT -8
I do like to be able to draw center lines on the surface, homasote does lend itself to that as well as holding spikes and track nails. I have driven Atlas track nails in to the OSB and it is hard - and some nails are bent but it's doable.
What would be cool is if there was sheet homabed but due to size it probably wouldn't be economical to ship. I have used homabed on a previous layout and it was thinner and worked great.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 25, 2014 14:36:23 GMT -8
Jim is not using plywood on his layout, he's using flake board or oriented strand board. That stuff is harder than cement and driving a tiny spike into may not be too easy. SNIP Then, fegeddabouit  Yeah, he'd probably have to drill that stuff, maybe blast. I stick to 3/4" ply, good one side, for subroadbed. I'm not sure I could bring myself to cover up something nice like cherry...I'd probably want to stain it first or something.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 16:01:04 GMT -8
Jim is not using plywood on his layout, he's using flake board or oriented strand board. That stuff is harder than cement and driving a tiny spike into may not be too easy. SNIP Then, fegeddabouit Yeah, he'd probably have to drill that stuff, maybe blast. I stick to 3/4" ply, good one side, for subroadbed. I'm not sure I could bring myself to cover up something nice like cherry...I'd probably want to stain it first or something. I've heard carpenters who work with the OSB say it dulls a circular saw blade in a fraction of the time versus plywood. The addition to my home has tongue and groove OSB for flooring. The tongue and grove joints are glued. Over the OSB in the laundry and restroom is linoleum. You can see exactly where every joint is on the linoleum. Even though the stuff has never been wet just the moisture in air especially during the summer has caused the joints to start to buckle. Nothing I can do about it short of removing the linoleum sanding the joints and laying a 1/4" plywood over the OSB and laying tile, wood or other flooring. I'll be real interested if Jim ever starts to have joint problems on the layout in a year or two. According to a construction site I read, OSB is really susceptible to joint expansion or curling where it is cut. |
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Post by wp8thsub on Aug 25, 2014 16:28:22 GMT -8
The addition to my home has tongue and groove OSB for flooring. The tongue and grove joints are glued. Over the OSB in the laundry and restroom is linoleum. You can see exactly where every joint is on the linoleum. Even though the stuff has never been wet just the moisture in air especially during the summer has caused the joints to start to buckle. Nothing I can do about it short of removing the linoleum sanding the joints and laying a 1/4" plywood over the OSB and laying tile, wood or other flooring. I've always seen 1/4" particle board or plywood added over OSB (and spanning the joints in the OSB) prior to installation of sheet goods. Joints can telegraph through sheet flooring with plywood subfloor too, so having something over it is also helpful. I've used some OSB subroadbed on my layout with no apparent ill effects. It hasn't buckled or otherwise caused trouble even with the water used in scenery. With adequate support it can be OK for wider ares like yards, but loses too much strength when cut into narrow strips for single track. In such applications it's almost guaranteed to sag over time. |
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Post by atsfan on Aug 25, 2014 17:51:31 GMT -8
Osb will warp eventually unless painted and kept in well controlled climate.
I would use cork and then silicon caulk. Use push pins to hold the track in place until it dries.
Sharpie markers will make nice lines on cork.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 25, 2014 21:57:35 GMT -8
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Post by bar on Aug 26, 2014 7:08:36 GMT -8
I used Homasote some years ago and found that the spikes I used to hold the ME track rusted through the ballast. I have since read of treating the spikes with WD-40 prior to ballasting. Now I go with plywood/foam for subroadbed and cork for roadbed. Caulk holds the track, which can be neatly removed to make changes.
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Post by nebrzephyr on Aug 26, 2014 11:32:22 GMT -8
I used Homasote some years ago and found that the spikes I used to hold the ME track rusted through the ballast. Very interesting. I use the same approach and have never seen any rust. But that might be because I paint the track work fairly soon after installation. Bob |
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Post by valenciajim on Aug 26, 2014 11:54:26 GMT -8
I have never had a problem with spikes rusting and parts of my layout includes items that were spiked over twelves years ago. I paint the homasote before I lay the track. I ballast with Woodland Scenics scenic cement. I use 3/4" plywood for the subroadbed. I have not had a problem with any trackwork on this layout.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 26, 2014 11:57:22 GMT -8
I don't think spike rusting is a function of homasote so much as ballasting. I've noticed the same thing with spikes driven into cork. The rust is right at the top, as presumably the moisture from wetting the ballast to fix it in place (I use matte medium, with 90% alcohol as a wetting agent) doesn't seem to penetrate all the way down, just around the spikehead. Doubt this is an issue with structural integrity of the track.
However, a soak in light oil couldn't hurt the spikes before use. I may consider that on my next tracklaying project.
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Post by bar on Aug 27, 2014 6:22:55 GMT -8
Oh, the irony. And to think, we use paint to add rust!
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Post by riogrande on Aug 27, 2014 6:46:17 GMT -8
Hah hah! Good point!
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