Burned by the pre- order monster again!!!

[kcjones]

OK. I'll stand corrected if i'm wrong, but.. A year ago I ordered two of the BLI Wabash Bluebird dome cars. Well, BLI started shipping them out back in July and working their way through the system I figured it would be about the middle of August before they reached my LHS. Well, August came and went and still no cars. I was finally told a few days ago that I had missed the pre-order deadline. Huh? Wait one dog gone minute, now. I remember going to my LHS and ordering these cars within weeks of their announcement. So I did a little back checking.
It seems that the Wabash cars came to light at the NMRA train show back in July 19, 2013. No formal announcement or anything to speak of. It was another 2 weeks before they started to show up on the net as announced and another 2 weeks before I saw the first print add. It wasn't until Sept that they showed up in the major mags. When I saw the first photos in the last week of August, I figured I could use two cars to go with my Kato obs. Took about a week, but I put my order in ASAP; first week of Sept. Double checked to be sure BLI was still taking orders. Yep, No problem. Horizon told my LHS that the cut off date was Aug 25. I might be nuts, but this date was before some of the adds even hit the stand. Plus, it was only a matter of a couple of weeks after they were "Announced". What gives? Are we going to have to start to put our orders in before anything is announced now. Put me down for a Bowser C415 that they might build 10 years from now. I've checked all of the usual places and these cars are nowhere to be found. Vanished into thin air. Not even on Ebay for twice the price.

J Loggans
Vancouver WA

[nightmare0331]

What are the stock numbers? You'd be surprised what can turn up if someone knows what they're looking for.

Kelley.

[edwardsutorik]

If I'm particularly interested in a new product, I go to the manufacturer's/importer's website, and check for ordering information. For BLI, this appears to be it:

www.broadway-limited.com/schedule.aspx

I figure if I order before the "last chance" date, I should get the item. I think my rate of success is in the high ninety percents.

It appears that you DID check their website. It's important to note that they still accept orders after the "last chance" date. The implication is that this is stand-by. Otherwise, why have the "last chance" date posted at all?

I will note that some websites are not totally clear on the pre-order/guarantee idea. On Intermountain's site, you find the words "Contact your dealer". I had assumed that this meant you could still get them from Intermountain if you "contacted your dealer". Gosh, I found out I was wrong. Sniff.



Ed

[bar]

Hmm, not many consumer product businesses that treat its loyal customers like dirt. Maybe cable TV. Drug dealers don't even ask for the money up front.

[edwardsutorik]

Sept 24, 2014 11:10:00 GMT -8 bar said:

Hmm, not many consumer product businesses that treat its loyal customers like dirt. Maybe cable TV. Drug dealers don't even ask for the money up front.

Impressive!

Don't forget the aliens. I think they're at the root of this, with their neutrino rays, and all.



Ed

[canrailfan]

I suspect the phrase "Contact your dealer" means "orders are closed, but maybe your dealer ordered extras for shelf stock". Some shops do order a few extras, many can't afford to any more.

David

[canrailfan]

I took a look in the Internet Archive (www.archive.org), it has a capture of the BLI Product delivery page on December 22, 2013. The delivery information was updated December 13, it shows the Wabash Bluebird pre-order date was August 16 but says they were still accepting orders in December.

It would appear that distributors such as Horizon may not allow LHSs to order past the manufacturers cut-off date even if the manufacturer would still accept the additional order.

David

[Spikre]

this is a Really Flawed System !!
why are American Companies copying the Failed European Company System ?
can always do without,less clutter in the closet.more money in the Pocket !!
Spikre

[atsfan]

The pre order system is very broken.
Many sales are being left in the wallet as a result.
I know of no other industry which relies on highly discretionary consumer funds, which functions even remotely as badly as the HO model train
Industry pre order only practice.

[Paul Cutler III]

It's funny how often people complain about the long delays between announcements and delivery. Now they are complaining that there isn't enough time. Sometimes you just can't win.

Of course, there's a guilty party that hasn't been mentioned yet: the hobby shops. Why not complain about them? They obviously didn't anticipate the demand for Wabash dome cars.

[edwardsutorik]

Sept 24, 2014 12:12:26 GMT -8 canrailfan said:

It would appear that distributors such as Horizon may not allow LHSs to order past the manufacturers cut-off date even if the manufacturer would still accept the additional order.

Maybe. Maybe not.

The additional order may well have been accepted. But if it was submitted past the "last chance" date, it may have been put on stand-by. And if there were no cancelled orders, there were no stand-by leftovers. Or, perhaps the OP was farther down the list than others.

I have ordered items past the "last chance" date of other manufacturers, and missed out. Sometimes, not others.

It appears the OP missed the "last chance" date. And since he asked, yup, he was "wrong". As I've noted, it's happened to me, too.

One lives, and one learns. Occasionally.



Ed

[Judge Doom]

Sept 24, 2014 13:00:33 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

It's funny how often people complain about the long delays between announcements and delivery. Now they are complaining that there isn't enough time. Sometimes you just can't win.

Of course, there's a guilty party that hasn't been mentioned yet: the hobby shops. Why not complain about them? They obviously didn't anticipate the demand for Wabash dome cars.

Curse those evil hobby shops and their dusty stock shelves that never have what I want! And the disgruntled old fogey owners! And the high prices! Where's ma 40% discount?!

Imma buy on teh internets naow!!!1

[Deleted]

Think on the bright side. The Wabash domes from BLI are the CZ domes with Wabash paint. If you could get Wabash passenger car decals you could paint an undecorated CZ car Wabash.....just like BLI!

[kcjones]

Guys.
All of you are proving my point. There are those that still don't own a computer and aren't on the web. The bluebird announcement did not show up until Sept. 2 in the Sept. issue of Model Railroad News. They were mentioned in the NMRA show report. WHICH WAS 2 WEEKS AFTER THE CUTOFF!!!! This makes no sense at all. This is a no win situation. How can the local hobby shop sell something they can't order? OK..I'll go back to my room and stop whining.

J Loggans
Vancouver WA

[mlehman]

J,
I'm kinda scratching my head here. Did you miss one run or two? It sounds like the "pre-order" you made last year may have been delivered -- and you missed out -- and then you missed a rerun? BLI has be re-running the heck out of these cars, so odds are they'll be back around.

That said, your interaction with your vendor and the mistimed ads in the press all sound like human error, one way or the other. Things happen. My own experience is pretty much confined to one dealer who I do most of my biz with these days. I tell him what I need and he gets it for me. Simple enough. Standard 20% discount. Somehow, we avoid human error -- almost always mine -- from mucking things up. First run BLI Zephyr -- Got it. Multiple runs of Red Caboose Rio Grande GS gons -- Got 'em. Multiple runs of Blackstone locos, passenger and freight cars -- In like Flynn, repeatedly. Emergency restock of Kadee 714 -- no drones involved, but got 'em quick.

And this whole "pre-order" thing is somewhat of a misnomer. At least we can agree it's not really an "order" as money doesn't (shouldn't) change hands prior to a pick-up notice.

In the "good ol' days" A+ Models made a warehouse full of their wonderful stuff. It was all produced in regular runs to feed the same old stuff out the the LHS, year after year sometimes. The runs were limited then, too, it's just that they were so profligate in the use of capital to carry inventory, the consumer rarely noticed that fact. And since they made that same car, #37987, year after year, you couldn't tell that was a "limited run" either.

Now that's all changed. People mostly don't let stock sit around in warehouses. They move it, then go back and make something else, repeat as necessary. Instead of guessing how many will sell in a year, the mfg/importer/whatever, wants to turn 5 or 6 runs, instead of just that one. There's the little thing called profit that needs to be fed or it gets angry, you see. Now they're going to make what the market wants, and very few more. Get 'em while they're hot, otherwise they're not...available any longer.

Since no one [should be] taking any money upfront prior to delivery, everyone holds onto their cash until it's needed. Instead of you reading about it in a magazine 3 months ago and checking regularly at the LHS to see if the shipment of A+ High Speed Rail Loco and Cars is in yet, the importer ships the requested number of models to the shops, including yours. The importer has no idea who you are in most cases. They only know they need to ship 36 units to your LHS. There, if everything has gone right so far, things can still go wrong. Maybe the promised 38 people that items and well, there's just 36. Maybe it gets hot on ebay and is selling at 50% over list. Things happen. Maybe one case got crunched enroute, damaging 3 locos. You were at the end of the sign up sheet -- and the importer is out of stock. Sorry.

Then again, most of the time everything works (it does for me, anyway). You get a lot for nothing essentially, other than taking the time to put down that you want one. In fact, even if you miss something, you're still usually ahead of the good ol' days when you missed stuff because you're at the shop three days after that hot item arrived.

The good news is they've ordered up another 2500 units of boxcar #37987...

I guess what I'm saying is that for all the troubles that seem to affect it, whatever you want to call this system actually gives us something better. You missed stuff in the past, too. Nobody blamed the "in stock system" did they?

BTW, Spikre, it's not really a European system, but I guess you're thinking Marklin being forever in stock -- talk about boring, at least Roco would come up with something new -- and was DC. It's more properly termed the "just in time" or -- if we have to blame someone -- the Japanese system...which BTW used to build a lot of limited runs of brass IIRC, before all the JIT stuff.

I much prefer the present system. Sure you have to pay some attention, because so much is happening, deadlines changing, runs cancelled or reinstated. You can't just walk down the aisles and see what's new anymore -- at least for more and more of us. You have to track stuff down and keep up if you really want it.

But what a bounty of stuff. I'll take that any day over Blue Box Zombies on the march.

[Brakie]

Sept 24, 2014 13:00:33 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

SNIP!

Of course, there's a guilty party that hasn't been mentioned yet: the hobby shops. Why not complain about them? They obviously didn't anticipate the demand for Wabash dome cars.

Paul,Maybe the shop doesn't have a good credit line or the needed cash to pay for a large order or he decided against ordering for customer(s) that has a record of dropping orders because of a missing tiny detail,some minor error or any reason under the sun which ties up his cash until another customer decides to buy those cars and as you know that may take a long period of time.

So,do we blame the manufacturer,the shop or the shop's customer(s)?

[riogrande]

Sept 24, 2014 21:27:38 GMT -8 kcjones said:

Guys.
All of you are proving my point. There are those that still don't own a computer and aren't on the web.

J Loggans
Vancouver WA

I imagine it would be harder without a computer to ensure getting new products these days. But for better or worse, that's the world we live in - and perhaps always have. Adapt or get left behind?

Even with a computer I had to scramble to get two of the latest D&RGW Athearn SD40T-2's which came in stock and were gone same day, maybe same hour, at my primary online vendor - I ended up getting the two I have from two different dealers - one I had never used before. The runs of the D&RGW SD40T-2's must be fairly small these days.

[bigb6flyer]

Sept 25, 2014 4:00:45 GMT -8 riogrande said:

Sept 24, 2014 21:27:38 GMT -8 kcjones said:

Guys.
All of you are proving my point. There are those that still don't own a computer and aren't on the web.

J Loggans
Vancouver WA

I imagine it would be harder without a computer to ensure getting new products these days. But for better or worse, that's the world we live in - and perhaps always have. Adapt or get left behind?

My thoughts exactly...I empathize with the OP, and I'm no fan of the preorder model, but not having a computer is a choice either financially or lifestyle, that forces one to be reliant on print or word of mouth about what is being released by manufacturers.  He found his way to a computer to post this thread, perhaps a weekly routine of surfing a few model train sites would enable him to know the latest releases.  I mean this in a constructive manner, not being preachy...

brad

[nightmare0331]

I reiterate my original question in the second posting in this thread. What are the stock numbers of the models that the OP is looking for?

Kelley.

[Brakie]

Guys,As far as lacking a computer one could go to the library and surf the better hobby shops on the web and order by phone..Also most cell phones has the internet as does tablets.

[scl1234]

Sept 24, 2014 21:27:38 GMT -8 kcjones said:

How can the local hobby shop sell something they can't order?

It very well could be that said local hobby shop does not do enough business with the BLI distributor(?) to warrant small orders of a few items.

Then again, in this day and age, persistence (almost to the point of pestering) in maintaining contact with your LHS to check the order status is key if you don't have a "history" of buying from them.

[mlehman]

Sept 25, 2014 6:10:56 GMT -8 scl1234 said:

SNIP

Then again, in this day and age, persistence (almost to the point of pestering) in maintaining contact with your LHS to check the order status is key if you don't have a "history" of buying from them.

I wouldn't go so far as pestering, but staying in touch is definitely good. And I also think being small enough that the people care about each customer helps. My main vendor was always a pretty small outfit. he had a storefront, but rising rents and declining walk-in traffic now have him doing shows and mail order only.

One thing I think gets people in trouble is always chasing the very cheapest price. Then you end up with pre-orders at a dozen different vendors, none of which ends up doing enough business with you to get to know you. I don't sweat the small stuff, 20% off everyday MSRP works for me, and most of my eggs are in one sturdy basket, where I'm treated like an old friend, not Customer #62974. Sure, I don't always get the absolute best deal in the land. But the very few dollars difference over a year is money well spent on good service.

[petehuse]

This same problem happened to me. I had preordered two from Caboose Hobbies long ago and when I checked on the status after noticing them out on ebay, they admitted that there was a shortage from BLI and I was not getting any. According to them, the BLI shortage was due to problems with quality control and they were unable to fill every pre-order. I am also waiting for one to appear on ebay now. Caboose did indicate there would be another shipment in December

[Brakie]

I don't sweat the small stuff, 20% off everyday MSRP works for me, and most of my eggs are in one sturdy basket, where I'm treated like an old friend, not Customer #62974.
-------------------------------------------------------------
That's the way I felt at a long closed shop..I was a mere number that spent tons of cash in his shop(15% off at cash register on sales of $25.00 or more) and not once in the 9 years I dealt with that man was I invited to see his layout that was located in the basement of the store.

AnywayI wish I had a hobby shop close by that offered a discount.That shop would get 90% of my business.

If I may add..Its sad I can buy my video games at 25% discount but,can't get a mere 10% off at a hobby shop I go to.

[kcjones]

I was just getting ready to call BLI myself until I just read the last post. Yipeeee!!! My order is all ready in!!! Back to my original post... Let me rephrase my question. How can a mfg put a cutoff date on something so soon knowing that it may be at least 2 months before some modelers even know about it?
JL

PS... I just found out I may not get my Atlas Dash.8-40c undec to replace the AV 800 (Bachman) you see to your left. Order got lost. @&%#€@&. Have I pissed somebody off or what? Going back under the layout....call me if something shows up.

[mlehman]

Sept 25, 2014 8:38:15 GMT -8 Brakie said:

I don't sweat the small stuff, 20% off everyday MSRP works for me, and most of my eggs are in one sturdy basket, where I'm treated like an old friend, not Customer #62974.
-------------------------------------------------------------
That's the way I felt at a long closed shop..I was a mere number that spent tons of cash in his shop(15% off at cash register on sales of $25.00 or more) and not once in the 9 years I dealt with that man was I invited to see his layout that was located in the basement of the store.

AnywayI wish I had a hobby shop close by that offered a discount.That shop would get 90% of my business.

If I may add..Its sad I can buy my video games at 25% discount but,can't get a mere 10% off at a hobby shop I go to.

Well, my vendor isn't close by, still mail order. But with Priority Mail now mostly 2-day delivery, nobody is really very far from a favorite LHS or vendor. I just happened stumble across him in my travels one time, as I tend to visit any LHS along the way.

Yeah, I don't understand why 10% isn't more common. If you're at full MSRP, you just can't compete with the internet. I've been a customer of my truly LHS for nearly 40 years, still MSRP. Back in the day -- pre-internet -- traveling and hitting the national narrowgauge convention kept me in stock. I use the LHS for a few necessities, but their stocking has always been so haphazard, I've rarely been able to count on them. But a new generation is in charge and seems to be doing better. MSRP still, but I'd probably buy more if they had it on hand.

20% off you do have to hunt for. And good service is even harder to find.

[talltim]

Sept 24, 2014 12:29:11 GMT -8 Spikre said:

this is a Really Flawed System !!
why are American Companies copying the Failed European Company System ?
can always do without,less clutter in the closet.more money in the Pocket !!
Spikre

What's European about it? AFAIK the the pre-ordering system, in model railroading at least, was in operation in the US far before it started in the UK.

[Spikre]

talltim,
guess I'm mainly talking about Roco's 80s catologs, and some
other impressions of the Euro Market from trade sheets read here.
while in the Good 'Ol days Roco would build 10,000 or so SD35s,or
GP40s for Atlas,then build some more for their own sales,since most
Contract building moved to China,those days are long gone.
recall seeing plenty of Atlas Originated Diesels - SD24,SD35,GP38s,
GP40s,FP7s in Roco boxes since the early 80s.
odd they didn't sell in Europe ??
in the 80s the Roco catalog was as big as a phone book, but lots of
the items were weird TT or 1/100 scale passenger cars on HO Trucks.
but even those had notes to "Order Early" or "Item Sold Out" back then.
while it wasn't stated this was a definite "Pre Order" system.
during that time most U.S. Companies would have the Tag line"See Your
Dealer" somewhere in the ad.
will put some of the Pre-Order Blame on Walthers as they worked very
closely with many Euro suppliers in most popular scales.reading their
monthly flyers shows that they "Encouraged" ordering early to get those
Euro Supplied items.
so while I havnt just staggered out of the Euro Cabbage Patch,do have
plenty of experiances with it.
and have never liked that crap they were trying to brainwash modelers with.
Spikre

[mlehman]

Sept 26, 2014 11:47:28 GMT -8 Spikre said:

SNIP...
so while I havnt just staggered out of the Euro Cabbage Patch,do have
plenty of experiances with it.
and have never liked that crap they were trying to brainwash modelers with.
Spikre

Poor Spikre, they had him down and were trying to apply that sparkling clean brain wash through his ear when he slipped through their fingers, smacked the one square in the forehead with one of those big, heavy Krokodils, and made his escape by hiding in one of those plush LGB coaches...

Whoa, that was a close one.

Gotta watch those European 'hoods...some of 'em are pretty rough. And the beer is strong...

[Spikre]

Mike,
it wasn't just Roco,but most of the larger Euro HO train Producers.
Roco is just the one I'm most familiar with.
for some reason would get Roco and other Euro Catalogs from a dealer
who got most of them from Walthers.
should still have a number of them,but not sure unless we go a'diggin !!
in the U.S. it was the Brass Importers that were closest to that Euro model,
but most didn't really push the "Reservation System" until after the 1975
U.S. Brass Implosion.
before 1975 almost Any Brass model would sell,but not as easily after 1975.
and now we seem to come full circle where even lowly Plastic models need to
be reserved.
what will be next ?
Spikre