SD40-2

[Deleted]

In the thread on the rumors or possibility of the Alco C415 being done by a premier manufacturer, atsfan mentioned that we still do not have a quality SD40-2. Instead of polluting the C415 thread, I figured it would be best to start a new one because the SD40-2 subject pulls at me all the time.

I could not agree with you more atsfan. The SD40-2 is THE quintessential locomotive of the 20th century. The MOST purchased 2nd generation locomotive and did more heavy hauling work for the railroads than any other locomotive during the 1970's, 80's and 90's. 30 years of mainline service and still the best model we have of it (US version) is the Athearn warmed over Blue Box. Of course with a lot of work you can make a respectable model from the good ol Athearn standby and I am sure Athearn has made a load of cash off that tooling. It is time though to give us a premier SD40-2. This locomotive deserves justice in model form more than any other. At this time Athearn is the ONLY manufacturer I trust to give this model the attention it needs. Bowser has already said they will not produce a US version. SO that leaves Athearn. Please do not even mention the Intermountain model. It is a heaping pile of steaming excrement of a model. Absolute JUNK! Intermountain is the new Tyco. I do wish they would just stop producing locomotives. Nothing on that model is worth its weight in plastic.

So that still leaves the market wide open for a quality state of the art tooling SD40-2. Until then, Athearn's revised RTR SD40-2 is the ONLY US version available that is worth anything. I just bought four of the recent released undecorated Athearn models, but if they were to announce a Genesis version, I would be in for more.

On the subject of a Genesis model, I would like to bend Athearn's ear on a few things. First, stop producing those thin handrails. I understand they are scale size, but sometimes scale size does not equate to a good looking model. The revised Blue Box version (before the RTR version) had handrails that were just a few thousandths oversized. The looked really good and they STOOD up straight. GO back to that. Wavy handrails really detracts for a really fine looking model. BUT, the Athearn stanchions are not scale. they are to small. Believe it or not. Kato stanchions are correct size. The head is slightly out of scale because the handrail itself is oversized, but the stanchion is correct. Height and width is correct. Depth is slightly more than scale. Second is to let me show them how to design a new way to attach the shell to the frame so they can put a scale buffer plate on their models. I do have an opportunity to talk to them this January when the hobby show comes here to Raleigh.

Brian

[riogrande]

Dec 8, 2014 7:39:06 GMT -8 @bgb said:

SD40-2. This locomotive deserves justice in model form more than any other. At this time Athearn is the ONLY manufacturer I trust to give this model the attention it needs. Bowser has already said they will not produce a US version. SO that leaves Athearn. Please do not even mention the Intermountain model. Absolute JUNK! Intermountain is the new Tyco. I do wish they would just stop producing locomotives. Nothing on that model is worth its weight in plastic.

So that still leaves the market wide open for a quality state of the art tooling SD40-2. Until then, Athearn's revised RTR SD40-2 is the ONLY US version available that is worth anything. I just bought four of the recent released undecorated Athearn models, but if they were to announce a Genesis version, I would be in for more.
Brian

I agree with your assessment about the SD40-2 being one of the most definitive US diesels of the twentieth century.

As it happens, my two favorite railroads didn't purchase SD40-2's - D&RGW and Southern Pacific. Because of this I haven't followed the modeling world of the SD40-2 closely. Both railroads did pool with UP, BN and MP, so SD40-2's crossed the Rockies, sometimes grouped with D&RGW power. Due to this I do own a couple of KATO SD40-2's (one BN and one UP). Of course as lack of luck would have it, they have "those" chassis with the electrical pick up issues and may need to be re-wired.

Would you be so kind as to explain why the KATO, Broadway and Intermountain models are so horrible? It may be true that, so far, everyone has "missed the mark" and we still do not have the definitive model to match this definitive RL diesel.

Thanks, Jim

[rockisland652]

I never saw a Tyco engine that looked like 513 here...

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

I may not call Intermountain Tyco, but the tooling on their SD40-2 is not well done. The inertial air filter on the roof sits on top of the shell like a cherry on a sundae. The radiator grilles stick out from the sides like Dumbo's ears. The tooling of the trucks leaves a lot to be desired. It sits too high and the even the tooling of the long hood is not as good as the old Athearn Blue Box of 1984!. It is just not a sharp model.

BLI's model besides being Paragon II sound or hit the highway, is just not tooled sharply. Whoever tooled the SD40-2 for BLI, thankfully didn't do the California Zephyr. To me the best thing BLI has ever done is the CZ. Even their E8/9 has issues, but at least they got the roof contour, nose and windshield pretty good, compared to the Proto 2000 E8/9. Even the updated Proto from Walthers current version with the improved nose and windshield left the roof contour too curved. This results in the Farr grille area being too short.

The Kato model isn't bad, if you can hard wire past the debacle that was the power pick up on the SD40-2. To my knowledge Kato has only done the 81" nose with chicken wire radiator grilles once and that would be with the iffy power pick up. The Kato shell does not have see through fans, the radiator shutters are molded on the shell, the dust bin is molded in place as are other parts. The delrin plastic grabs are over sized and the detail is generic. To Kato's credit when that initial run of SD40-2's does run, it runs like a Kato. I like the trucks on the Kato, but not as much as I like the trucks on the Athearn RTR. I also like the stance of the Kato.

Athearn may not do some things very right, like wavy handrails, but their truck tooling Blomberg B's and M's and the HTC with Timken or Hyatt roller bearings has great depth and really captures the prototype.

[grabbem88]

The copper strip contact design irked me with kato as well but ripping the strip soldering some wire and notching the frame squares where the truck power pick ups poked through make them even better runners..

[Deleted]

You can post all the IM locomotive photos you want. Intermountain = Tyco. When they decide to get their heads out of their a$$ with design and quality, then I may stop to look them over. Until then, forget it. They will not get a dime from me. Their tooling is just plain half assed. I swear they take a hand full of photos, throw them at China and say "hey produce something like this". As a modeler, Intermountian has nothing to offer me that I want to use as a platform to build upon. I am sure the RTR folks are just fine with what IM offers. I am not telling people to not buy IM stuff. I just abhor it. I can go on about how much I can't stand IM locomotives, but I would rather discuss what we would like to see in an all new SD40-2 model. Take the best of what is available and combine it into one great model. I know that is dreaming, but it sure would be nice.

I have only two issues with Kato. One is their choice of plastic. ABS is not exactly the friendliest plastic to work with. Although I am learning to accept it and work with it. I would prefer styrene. ABS does have its positive qualities though. The second issue is the delrin truck side frames. Although I can adapt the Athearn side frames onto the Kato gear towers. it is a bit of work. If Kato would have built in more depth to their side frames, I think I could live with them. They are rather weak though. The biggest plus that Kato has going for them other than their drive being the best ever put out. The Kato SD40-2 is the only model with the correct bolster spacing. There is a VERY good chance that the rest of my SD40-2 fleet will be Athearn parts on a Kato drive. On the mid production SD40-2 a lot of the details are cast into the roof and the corrugated radiator grills are to short in height.

For me what really makes the Athearn model the best is the plastic they use. Except for the handrails, it is ALL styrene. Very modelers friendly. Easy to cut and manipulate/modify. As Chicago Commuter Fan points out. all the Athearn side frames are made from styrene which makes them very modifiable. Try building a set of HT-C clasp trucks for a N&W SD40-2 using delrin side frames. Not a whole lot of fun. Now do the same thing with a set of Athearn styrene HT-C side frames. 

What really needs to be done is Athearn tooling with Kato drives. That would make the perfect model. Of which I do now. All my non Kato models get Kato drives. But to have that from the factory would be better instead of building new motor mounts and having to buy motor separately.

Brian 

[TBird1958]

Athearn's is still the best place to start if you want a good model (But I completely agree, a new high quality model is needed) all the rest are a no thank you.
I don't think Athearn is the only company capable, Bowser's Canadian effort sure looks great so far, perhaps Fox Valley? If a good model in all it's variations could be produced and production were managed, it would be cash cow for years.

[grabbem88]

Don't forget the lighting and kato blue led tint was horrid

Mid production was better

I had money for a intermountain sd40-2 but took that money and bought a decoder and a whole bunch of detail stuff and spent it on my kato sd40-2 soo line and had enough left over for another build..

[Deleted]

Bowser has already said no to a US version. If they would bring the quality of what they have done with their Canadian version to a US version, I would welcome it.

Please no Fox Valley. Their tooling is not up to it yet. The P2K GP60 tooling is still better than the Fox Valley GP60. The Fox Valley has some components that are better, but not the major parts. Fox Valley COULD do much better. Just need someone who really is picky about fidelity and quality.

Oh, another thing to add to the ultimate SD40-2. Copy Kato's assembly. Probably the best and easiest models to work with taking apart and putting back together. The fit up of all the parts is flawless.

Brian

[bigblow69]

Dec 8, 2014 9:14:42 GMT -8 @bgb said:

You can post all the IM locomotive photos you want. Intermountain = Tyco. When they decide to get their heads out of their a$$ with design and quality, then I may stop to look them over. Until then, forget it. They will not get a dime from me. Their tooling is just plain half assed. I swear they take a hand full of photos, throw them at China and say "hey produce something like this". As a modeler, Intermountian has nothing to offer me that I want to use as a platform to build upon. I am sure the RTR folks are just fine with what IM offers. I am not telling people to not buy IM stuff. I just abhor it. I can go on about how much I can't stand IM locomotives, but I would rather discuss what we would like to see in an all new SD40-2 model. Take the best of what is available and combine it into one great model. I know that is dreaming, but it sure would be nice.

The shortcomings of their products are well documented here. I agree their tooling for GE's truck is hideous at best. Compare it to an Athearn and it don't come close. Purged all the GEVO's I squandered money on buying Athearn Kato And Proto units and a few Bowsers.

[rockisland652]

I imagine that before you see a Genesis SD40-2 (US), you will get an RTR sound version of this one. It looks decent enough to me.

[wp8thsub]

Dec 8, 2014 9:14:42 GMT -8 @bgb said:

What really needs to be done is Athearn tooling with Kato drives. That would make the perfect model. Of which I do now. All my non Kato models get Kato drives. But to have that from the factory would be better instead of building new motor mounts and having to buy motor separately.

I have three Kato SD40-2s in service, all with the modifications necessary to ensure good tracking and electrical pickup. I also built an Athearn model before Kato's came out, and it received machined wheels along with a Kato motor and flywheels from a GP35. Due to the amount of work invested I wanted it to remain in service and run well.

It was necessary to machine part of the frame for the Kato motor anyway, so I just kept going to fit the entire plastic motor mount into the Athearn frame so it could be secured with screws to ease maintenance. Despite retaining the Athearn universals/gearing/trucks it runs very well, compatible with straight Kato mechanisms.

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

Dec 8, 2014 8:57:28 GMT -8 grabbem88 said:

The copper strip contact design irked me with kato as well but ripping the strip soldering some wire and notching the frame squares where the truck power pick ups poked through make them even better runners..

That fix is a piece of cake for one of average abilities, I've done 2.

[buffalobill]

I heartily agree that a Genesis Quality SD-40-2 is needed. I tend to disagree that the Athearn RTR is the best starting point. I think the Kato is a better starting point. I will give you the first runs, with the 81" noses have the pickup issues, a poor truck details, but any modeler with any skills can handle that. Kato offered replacement side frames back in the day. You have already have the Kato drive starting out, you need to work on the shell a little, and replace the handrails and the fans. As a BN modeler, I need lots of 88" nose mid to late production dash 2's. I have 4 88" units done over 10 years ago, started as undecorated snoots, they Cannon Cabs, short hoods, etc, and tons of detail parts. Only thing missing is the open fans, they still have the stock fans. I have six more units waiting to get done again, same process, just adding new Cannon fans and Tom's composite handrail fix, drilling the post holes and adding wire. They are waiting with all of the details in a box to see if someone can do the definitive one.

I am not sure you are not being a little harsh comparing Intermountain engines to Tyco. Love their cars, but my sole attempt at an engine, their CN SD-40-2 Wide nose was a disaster. Globs of grease, with no pulling power, and really sloppy finish and details. But Tyco, come on, that's a bit much.

Bring it on, I will dump all of the snoot SD-40-2's I have not completed, and the 15 extra shells I have. Lots of time and money in the conversions.
Bill

[fr8kar]

Actually, the Intermountain/Tyco comparison may not be that far off. In their heyday, Tyco never met a model they wouldn't put any paint scheme on regardless of whether it was prototypically correct or not. Their models ran, but not well. Their tooling was pretty good - in some cases better than similar locomotives from competitors. Their trucks generally looked pretty bad but some were okay depending on the model. Every one of those statements could be made about Intermountain's product line.

I don't understand the statement that DRGW and SP didn't own SD40-2s. Yes, they did. Their fleets had a modified radiator design, but the model is still an SD40-2 in every other way.

Years ago I was hopeful that the new Railflyer frame design would lead to a new kind of modular locomotive model enabling the modeler to build every variation of the prototype that existed. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. So, I dusted off my old blue box shells and frames and got to work. Since then I've purchased several Athearn RTR SD40-2s. I'm not going for an all-out perfect prototype model, but I like the fact that I can capture the various phase details with some modifications to the basic Athearn shell. If the Bowser GMD SD40-2 turns out as nice as the preproduction tooling looks, I will have to get one. And I hope it inspires someone - maybe even Bowser - to rethink doing the ultimate SD40-2.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Dec 8, 2014 14:05:05 GMT -8 buffalobill said:

I am not sure you are not being a little harsh comparing Intermountain engines to Tyco. Love their cars, but my sole attempt at an engine, their CN SD-40-2 Wide nose was a disaster. Globs of grease, with no pulling power, and really sloppy finish and details. But Tyco, come on, that's a bit much.


Bill

Your Intermountain SD40-2W must been next to the one I had during assembly. I've been disappointed with model railroad products, but not like I was with the SD40-2W. Looked real pretty in the Expo 86 paint in the box. But upon further inspection it just was not tooled very well. I thought the tooling was sloppy, just like the new Intermountain SD40-2.

My Intermountain SD40-2W couldn't pull itself out of wet paper sack, with the infamous peanut sized Mu-crappy motor. Even the installation of the LED lighting on the Tsunami board looked like an afterthought.

[WP 257]

I have a friend, actually a mechanical engineer, who just bought an Intermountain NS SD40-2. He's happy with it. Thinks it looks ok for the money and sounded ok when he test ran it.

This friend will have the golden opportunity to buy a very nice little train store soon as the owners are getting to the point where they no longer need to own it, and he works for that store now on Saturdays to feed his "habit". That means he's well-educated in what is coming out and what all the plusses and minuses are--he is no dummy at all.

And he still thought the Intermountain NS unit is ok. It was a token sample before he orders a bunch of another roadname that they are bringing out. Guess what--he's going ahead with the big order.

For everyone who hates a given model, there are folks out there who are happy with the very same thing.

[riogrande]

Dec 8, 2014 14:42:11 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

I don't understand the statement that DRGW and SP didn't own SD40-2s. Yes, they did. Their fleets had a modified radiator design, but the model is still an SD40-2 in every other way.

Hah hah!

[atsfan]

Dec 8, 2014 12:38:32 GMT -8 rockisland652 said:

I imagine that before you see a Genesis SD40-2 (US), you will get an RTR sound version of this one. It looks decent enough to me.

Compared to the new Athearn Genesis beeps this looks like a Cub Scout soap carving project.
No comparison sadly.

[atsfan]

The Kato unit started with the horrid copper strip design.
All of mine died.
They were junk.
They fixed that but the tooling is poor. Radiators and fans are not see through. Lights are blue. No lift rings or other small parts.
IM has a motor that does not pull. Also their DC only one still is set to only run with DCC units.
Broadway is not even worth discussing they are so bad.

[atsfan]

Dec 8, 2014 13:04:21 GMT -8 kentuckysouthernrwy said:

Dec 8, 2014 8:57:28 GMT -8 grabbem88 said:

The copper strip contact design irked me with kato as well but ripping the strip soldering some wire and notching the frame squares where the truck power pick ups poked through make them even better runners..

That fix is a piece of cake for one of average abilities, I've done 2.

The soldering is not easy.
Nor should it be needed?

[grabbem88]

It's no different than soldering athearn BB early RTR's

But I'm talking about getting them 100% dcc/sound ready though.

[bcrn]

i wish athearn would bring back a b-b version of their products. they werent perfect, but if i wanted to add parts i could. the fine detail, and xtra parts and high prices are getting just silly. if you rotate equipment on and off the layout frequently, the details cant take it, and heaven forbid you send it in the mail. no, i dont envy the price your gonna pay for what your hoping for, bbut if thats your wish i hope they grant it. just leave something for us good enoughers!

[riogrande]

Dec 8, 2014 22:52:17 GMT -8 bcrn said:

i wish athearn would bring back a b-b version of their products. they werent perfect, but if i wanted to add parts i could. the fine detail, and xtra parts and high prices are getting just silly. if you rotate equipment on and off the layout frequently, the details cant take it, and heaven forbid you send it in the mail. no, i dont envy the price your gonna pay for what your hoping for, bbut if thats your wish i hope they grant it. just leave something for us good enoughers!

Athearn dropped blue box because the demand was for RTR - it was not financially wise for them to keep offering something which was generally no longer selling. If you want blue box, visit a good sized train show and you should find it there - lots of it out there at shows and on the secondary market. Lots of Athearn bb trains for the good enoughers - I doubt it will be coming back into production.

[Deleted]

I am fine with the Athearn RTR models. If I cannot find undecs, I drown the decorated models in 91% isopropyl alcohol and turn them into undecs. What I like about them over the revised BB model is that Athearn made all the details as separate parts including the nose. So just about everything on them can be changed or enhanced. I pitch the handrails and use brass stanchions and bend my own wire. But if I did not want to do that, I have a large stash of older revised BB handrail sets. They are good and stand up well. I also ditch the motors and put in Kato motors. I built a pattern and cast my own motor mounts.

The Kat model IS a good model to start with. It is that the Athearn model is just so "modeler" friendly. I am not at all about the manufacturers trying to build the models for us. I prefer they do not do that. They cannot because the people assembling them do not care about the effort that goes into them. It is just a paycheck for them. I would prefer they just leave all the parts off and let us put them on. As a modeler, I would prefer an undecorated SD40-2 kit like the Highliner F unit was. All the parts in one kit and build your own version. I know that is NOT going to happen. Not in a million years. Not enough modelers out there to warrant it.

So for me the PERFECT SD40-2 model would be the following.

- Kato motor drive line and gear towers.
- Athearn side frames. Made from styrene.
- Kato SD38-2 style frame that has correct bolster spacing. Thin frame with straight sides so you can add under frame details yourself and allows you different size fuel tanks.
- My design for a scale draft gear box and frame to sill attachment.
- Athearn fuel tanks. Made from styrene.
- Pilot plates with scale buffer plates. Coupler box is already built into the scale draft gear box. Just insert your preferred coupler (mine is Sergent).
- Step wells with the correct angle such as Kato has. Solid steps. *
- Decks without tread plate. **
- Deck, sub base, cab, nose and long hood all separate parts with Athearn Genesis quality tooling.
- All details as add on parts. Details such as blower chute, inertial intake screens, inertial filter hatch, exhaust hatch, DB and rad fans, radiator intake screens, etc....
- DB hatch options. Non DB, standard DB, extended range DB and Q-equipped DB.
- Cannon & Co. quality cab that snaps into the sub base and fits a groove in the nose and long hood.

* solid steps because then the steps can be molded at full depth. It is easy to cut out the steps and add your own etched steps.
** Molded on tread plate does not give the model the look of welded on tread plate. There is a definite edge to tread plate. It is a detail part and looks better when you cut it and lay it in yourself.

If I were to start a new company, the above is what I would do. leverage from what already works and take the best of each and combine it all into one.

Brian

[grabbem88]

The truth and fact is no manufacture is going to meet "everybody's" standards of quality. Some nit pic the paint or shade the motors cab windows horn location the material... It goes on and on.. Someone will never be happy "ever"!!! So that's when you suck it up and become a modeler and build "your" perfect little engine that the manufactures couldn't..

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

Dec 8, 2014 19:40:41 GMT -8 atsfan said:

Dec 8, 2014 13:04:21 GMT -8 kentuckysouthernrwy said:

That fix is a piece of cake for one of average abilities, I've done 2.

The soldering is not easy.
Nor should it be needed?

If I recall some soldering was necessary, one of my average abilities. Your milage may vary..

[tdspeedracer]

I don't know that I've ever seen the word junk used to describe a Kato before. Was the strip a good design? Probably not, even though in the F40PH it doesn't seem to bother. My 40-2's didn't have any pick up issues until I converted to dcc years later.

It only took a half hour to fix, and considering running quality of the rest of the drive, even compared to the newer run with hardwired pick up, I would not use the drive as an excuse to shy away from them.

Trevor

[Deleted]

Dec 9, 2014 8:29:47 GMT -8 grabbem88 said:

The truth and fact is no manufacture is going to meet "everybody's" standards of quality. Some nit pic the paint or shade the motors cab windows horn location the material... It goes on and on.. Someone will never be happy "ever"!!! So that's when you suck it up and become a modeler and build "your" perfect little engine that the manufactures couldn't..

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Perfectly said grabbem88.

As long as we have to have a decent canvas to start with and that is where the Athearn or the Kato model comes in. The "modeler" can fix the inadequacies and some of the inaccuracies and make a very respectable model from either of them.

Brian

[Deleted]

CSXT, please cool your jets a little here.

The way the post that Chicago Commuter Fan is responding to is written is a bit in a way throwing it in our face. When you italicize a phrase like it was, it is sort of emphasizing that despite all you rivet counting knuckle heads, I am going to go ahead and buy them anyway. That is fine. Maybe it was not meant that way, but it sure looks like it was written that way.

I hate to have to point this out, but it is because of us "rivet counters" that we have the models that are out today. The "good enoughers" were just fine with what was available. Hence the phrase "good enoughers". They did not push the manufacturers for higher fidelity in models. So the "good enoughers" are riding on the backs of the "rivet counters" and telling us to just be happy with what is out because it is "good enough". Quit frankly NO. It is not good enough. So I would like to tell the "good enoughers" to just set back and let us "rivet counters" again demand better fidelity and quality and you "good enoughers" can ride the wave again. The technology is out there. We "rivet counters" are demanding they use it and actually make the models worth the price they are asking.

Brian