|
Post by grabbem88 on Dec 15, 2014 10:18:10 GMT -8
I have created some pretty impressive speaker/enclosure combos with rich bass tone that if you guys were actual 1:87 scale people you eyes would pop out ...ears would cave in...nose bleeds like a river...heck your heads would pop off..
Sad part is massive bass that you non sound guys think should be present would crack rattle and distort your shells..
Gotta be realistic
|
|
|
Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 15, 2014 11:32:44 GMT -8
Sound doesn't scale down well. Especially for something that is on the move like a locomotive or freight car.
When you are sitting watching a NASCAR race, it sure isn't like being in the stands. At home you don't have ear protection on, when your sitting in the stands close to the track, most people wear ear protection.
Sound on our models is a lot like NASCAR. When you are standing track side it is a total different experience from standing layout side. The sounds your toy SD40-2 is making sound similar to the real SD40-2. But you lack the feel of a 300,000 pound machine with your 2 pound machine. Our models do lack the base and sheer volume of the prototype. But, in the end these are MODELS. Our models do not have prime movers, generators, traction motors, fans, pipes, air compressors and a few hundred miles of cable. Our models do not smell like the prototype. The fuel spill by the filler on our models is paint. On the prototype it is diesel fuel.
The prototype locomotive will cover thousands of miles on a run. A model most of the time runs around in circles and covers a few hundred feet on a run.
The grass by the prototype grows. Ours is ground foam.
You get the picture.
The model, sound, lights, paint, weathering, etc. is all to give us the "feel" of the prototype. It will never be the prototype. Its like lighting a layout. On the prototype there is this orange ball in the sky that is known as the sun. On our layouts you have multiple light sources none which every truly duplicate the sun or the moon. This is why even the best layout lighting will never duplicate the sun.
If you want real sound then give up the models and either rail fan or work for the railroad. If the sound isn't up to your standards, and you still want to play with toy trains, then go stealth.
The argument about sound is like the countless arguments on this forum about:
1. Death of the hobby
2. Prices
3. Death of the hobby shop
4. Pre Orders
5. The perfect model
6. DC versus DCC
7. DCC versus other controls
8. Sound versus Real Sound
9. Sound versus stealth
10. Digitrax versus NCE
11. Tsunami versus Lok
Have I forgotten anything???
These debates start out harmlessly enough and then both sides dig in, feelings get hurt and soon each side is trying to prove they are right and the other side are a bunch of morons.
Its all a matter of preference. I know what I like and what I want. That may not be what you like and what you want. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year.....Peace!
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Dec 15, 2014 19:43:33 GMT -8
Great post! Couldn't agree with ya anymore
|
|
|
Post by Gary P on Dec 16, 2014 6:20:12 GMT -8
For the most part, everyone's been pretty civil. I haven't read anything real offensive, and I have not been offended either. I learn from most of the groups posts, even if I may not agree totally because my experience differed. No biggie. Opinionated, yeah sure, but nothing wrong with that. Everyone's got one!
|
|
|
Post by surlyknuckle on Dec 16, 2014 7:46:18 GMT -8
My general preference is for no sound - save for a couple of exceptions: Some steam engines, and a one-off FEC SD70M-2 with sound as a vacation souvenir.
This freight car sound decoder to me, much like it's fellow diesel locomotive sound decoders dose not personally convince me. Some combination of factors such as layers of sounds, coupled with lack of bass leave it feeling like scratchy noise after too long. I work for the railroad, and when I run the sound equipped stuff, to me it sounds like nothing like the thing I just stepped off of.
If I am running a sound equipped engine, and close my eyes...I don't see the real thing in my mind...I see my 1/87th scale models, making repetitive, scratchy noise.
Now, I enjoy my few sound equipped steam engines that I run occasionally, same with my SD70M-2 with sound. Those are not my usual power. If I'm going for effect, I'd much rather run a DVD in the back ground, with real recorded sound with much better speaker quality.
Again, all my preference. If some folks love sound, that's fine. I think sound should continue to be explored and offered. It just ain't my cup 'o-tea...
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Dec 16, 2014 8:45:06 GMT -8
I'm not a sound guy, or even a DCC guy, but have a question... For the deep bass sound that is always missing in our models, would something like a fixed external speaker under the layout, say in the yard, or at a crossing or someplace similar, be a good idea? I've heard some of the MRC DC transformers with sound through an external speaker, and the bass is real deep. I know it might be rudimentary sound compared to the specific sounds available in DCC equipped locos, but maybe as a supplementary sound to be used in addition to sound equipped locos/cars? Just a thought... Gary, Yeah, this is a good idea and has batted around before in several threads I've read on sound over the years. It should be easy enough for the mfgs to provide a bass/sub bass port. I'm really surprised no one has added this as a factory feature, although I've heard that several people have done something like this. Low freq sound is fairly non-directional, so this should work regardless of the train position. I've called this and related enhancements "super-realistic sound" because we already have what I consider to be realistic sound. But it will still not be the vibrating whoopeie cushion it would take to really transmit these "good vibrations" some folks are after before they buy into sound. EDIT: OK, just had a brainstorm for what might be "product of the year" -- SoundPants! It's a pair of underwear -- boxers or briefs, your choice -- with wireless, vibration-generating low frequency transducers built into the butt to give you that "trackside feeling" you can't get any other way. Want to really feel the power of DCC/sound? Get SoundPants!... Jim, I too think it's been a fairly thoughtful discussion, as such things go. I think the big problem is that often people want a nice neat either/or answer to these sorts of things -- and they are often really more shades of gray in between in real life. This, of course, excludes those few who want to convince everyone their position is superior, for everyone, and that the other side is nothing but the work of the devil.
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Dec 16, 2014 9:59:15 GMT -8
Being a non sound person and a critic is like a deaf person yelling at a mute..
If this deep obnoxious bass is the consensus here.. Well you might as well sell your HO scale stuff and go straight to G scale..
Bass creates vibration and will sound like crap when your poor little train is magnifying this bass into distortion
We all seen those people with super huge stereo systems in there cars and all you hear is the trunk and license plate just a rattling sounding like poo poo
It's not the bass
Recordings and clarity is what's key in realistic good sound
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Dec 16, 2014 11:12:19 GMT -8
Being a non sound person and a critic is like a deaf person yelling at a mute.. If this deep obnoxious bass is the consensus here.. Well you might as well sell your HO scale stuff and go straight to G scale.. SNIP Recordings and clarity is what's key in realistic good sound Personally, I'm kidding pretty much when I discuss bass -- except for the bass/low freq porting, which is an idea i really like. A little bass goes a long way. If I had such a system, it would be set on "2" not "11" and you would just perceive a tickle of bass listening to it. I agree that decent bass does improve sound. But... I built pretty darn good car stereos back in the pre-bass-heavy era. Oh, it was there, balanced against a wide spectrum to deliver clarity...exactly what you also enjoy I suspect. I certainly understand those want better bass in DCC sound, but it's not a show-stopper for me. My master volumes are set low enough you do have to listen closely to miss it. Or that could be my flaky almost 60 yo hearing, which thrived on a diet of rock-and-roll and unprotected gunfire in my wayward youth but is showing the effects now. I still remember that Canned Heat concert in Kaiserslautern where my ears were stunned for a week afterwards...
|
|
|
Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 16, 2014 11:31:45 GMT -8
The topic of sound has turned into a Ford versus Chevy argument. The naysayers pick at the sound for largely the lack of bass. The supporters say you can't have the heavy bass because of limitations and it "sounds", sorry for the pun, just fine to them. Its all about preferences as I've said before. No one is winning the argument of HO sound versus prototype sound. If you don't like sound go stealth and enjoy. If like sound, go for it and enjoy. This thread could go on another 50 to 100 pages and the only thing that is clear is some love it, some are iffy and some hate it. Next topic. Let's argue price!......
|
|
|
Post by fr8kar on Dec 16, 2014 11:37:12 GMT -8
Being a non sound person and a critic is like a deaf person yelling at a mute.. To be fair, you need to understand why someone is a "non-sound person." I love sound; sounds of nature, sounds of industry, listening to recorded music or playing music on a variety of instruments. I also enjoy the sound of locomotives and in general, the sounds of the railroad. I get plenty of railroad sound at work. I know what certain locomotives sound and feel like, what a cut of cars going in emergency sounds like, what a hard joint sounds like, how flanges sound squealing around a wye or what a six-axle diesel sounds like grinding and popping its way around a tight industry curve. I know what a trio of Dash 9s sound like under load in notch 8 pulling a long hill (and the difference between what you hear in the cab and outside the cab is incredible). As good as model train sounds are, they don't sound like anything I hear at work. They are getting better all the time and even sound good when considered on their own merit, but it's not in the same ballpark quite yet. Lighting effects and detail parts are executed well on our models, but I don't think the same can be said of the sound effects available today. I am waiting for them to get there. We've gotten past the old Lionel and Tyco action trainset sounds, but is it worth the investment to me yet to buy today's sound systems? Nope. That doesn't mean I'm not a sound guy. I am decidedly a sound guy. I'm just not buying the expensive toy train sound systems available right now. When they can make them sound good and sound remotely like what I hear every day, I'm in. But the volume will be low!
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Dec 16, 2014 13:12:41 GMT -8
The best sound I heard on a layout had under layout speakers (real nice large ones) and somehow had them come on and fade in and out as trains Went past. I kept looking over my shoulder !
|
|
|
Post by fr8kar on Dec 16, 2014 13:21:28 GMT -8
The best sound I heard on a layout had under layout speakers (real nice large ones) and somehow had them come on and fade in and out as trains Went past. I kept looking over my shoulder ! I wonder how the various diesel decoders would sound if they were hooked up to an amplifier and set of large speakers.
|
|
|
Post by stevef45 on Dec 16, 2014 20:29:11 GMT -8
there is a guy on youtube that did hook up his tsunami decoder to a home amp and large speakers. It sounded incredible!!!
|
|
|
Post by Gary P on Dec 17, 2014 3:32:08 GMT -8
I'm not a sound guy, or even a DCC guy, but have a question... For the deep bass sound that is always missing in our models, would something like a fixed external speaker under the layout, say in the yard, or at a crossing or someplace similar, be a good idea? I've heard some of the MRC DC transformers with sound through an external speaker, and the bass is real deep. I know it might be rudimentary sound compared to the specific sounds available in DCC equipped locos, but maybe as a supplementary sound to be used in addition to sound equipped locos/cars? Just a thought... Gary, Yeah, this is a good idea and has batted around before in several threads I've read on sound over the years. It should be easy enough for the mfgs to provide a bass/sub bass port. I'm really surprised no one has added this as a factory feature, although I've heard that several people have done something like this. Low freq sound is fairly non-directional, so this should work regardless of the train position. I've called this and related enhancements "super-realistic sound" because we already have what I consider to be realistic sound. But it will still not be the vibrating whoopeie cushion it would take to really transmit these "good vibrations" some folks are after before they buy into sound. EDIT: OK, just had a brainstorm for what might be "product of the year" -- SoundPants! It's a pair of underwear -- boxers or briefs, your choice -- with wireless, vibration-generating low frequency transducers built into the butt to give you that "trackside feeling" you can't get any other way. Want to really feel the power of DCC/sound? Get SoundPants!... Jim, I too think it's been a fairly thoughtful discussion, as such things go. I think the big problem is that often people want a nice neat either/or answer to these sorts of things -- and they are often really more shades of gray in between in real life. This, of course, excludes those few who want to convince everyone their position is superior, for everyone, and that the other side is nothing but the work of the devil. LOL @ "soundpants!" Actually made me laugh out loud! Thanks, I needed that.
|
|
|
Post by Gary P on Dec 17, 2014 4:35:19 GMT -8
Regarding bass sounds, what I was referring to was not a true, REAL sound of a thundering train with all of the vibrations and all that, but merely a small representation of a bit more bass than is currently available in the sound equipped models and decoders. (However, I think Mike's brainstorm about "SOUNDPANTS" has possibilities! LOL ) For example, about 10-12 years ago I built a small beginner layout for the neighbors 2 boys. They were young, about 4 and 7 years old at the time if I remember correctly. It was a simple DC controlled layout on plywood, twice around over/under loop with a pair of sidings. Very easy for the young guys to run. I used one of the MRC transformers, forget which one now, but it had a simple diesel horn and steam whistle included in it. I installed the external speaker in a box under the train table, out of the way, and it had surprisingly good sound. Yes, it was crude, but had a deep sound, not tinny. It was certainly not anything prototypical, but the kids had a blast with it (pun intended!) A year later, I added the MRC Sound Station 312 to it, and they really enjoyed that. For those that don't remember them the sound station was pretty simple. There were 18 buttons and a volume knob, and sounds from 9 buttons went to one speaker, while the other nine buttons went to the other speaker. We hung the speakers under the layout also. Nothing going to the tracks, and no sound decoders in locos or rolling stock. From their website, the 18 buttons had the following sounds: Diesel Horn 1 Long Diesel Horn 1 Short Diesel Horn 1 Combination Diesel Horn 2 Long Diesel Horn 2 Short Diesel Horn 2 Combination Whistle 1 Long Whistle 1 Short Whistle 2 Combination Conductor ('All aboard!') Brake Sound Steam Release Coupling Sound Engine Bell Crossing Gate Bell Rail Clack Sound Steam Chuff Diesel Engine Sound
Yeah, a bit crude, but they had fun with it. That's what made me think of using something like that for an additional background sound, on low volume, for our more advanced layouts. Just a thought.....
|
|
|
Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 17, 2014 5:38:27 GMT -8
Soundpants? I've had them for years, plenty of bass but sort of muffled. Have to be careful with them, tho, the don't always come up to the latest EPA Tier specs, although.
|
|
|
Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 17, 2014 6:22:43 GMT -8
Some of the tinniness we hear with sound is many times factory installations. As sound becomes very much a mainstream staple for the hobby, I have noticed that the manufacturers are doing a better job of sealing the speaker for a true sound. But most custom installations are still much better than what comes from the factory where they are bombing these things out in the thousands.
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Dec 17, 2014 9:31:16 GMT -8
Well maybe, just maybe, I should consider producing SoundPants??? Nah, got enough on my plate. Have thought since maybe it should be a SoundBelt instead? It would be easier to sit down with the belt And a belt would give much better results if you want gut-shaking vibration with your sound. Or maybe do both SoundPants and the SoundBelt for the ultimate trackside experience? Heck, turn them up to 11 and you'd vibrate across the floor like one of the little players on those old vibrating hockey and footballs game fields. Some of the tinniness we hear with sound is many times factory installations. As sound becomes very much a mainstream staple for the hobby, I have noticed that the manufacturers are doing a better job of sealing the speaker for a true sound. But most custom installations are still much better than what comes from the factory where they are bombing these things out in the thousands. I suspect this is exactly why the Blackstone K-27 and C-19 are so impressive. Soundtraxx, the parent, is after all a sound decoder specialist. I'm certain they put extra effort into using the tenders as effective enclosures, instead of doing it 1/2arse as so many seem to be. I've been less than impressed with many standard gauge diesel factory installs I've seen. Since they make up the majority of sound locos out there (yeah, people still buy steam, but I'm sure diesels are at something like ~80% of the sound market, Blackstone excluded), this could be creating a less than stellar impression about sound. Given the physical limitations of getting big sound in a tiny loco, you need every advantage you can get. Hopefully, this will improve, given new models are designed to accommodate sound from the get-go, instead of being hacked to retrofit it.
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Dec 17, 2014 10:01:29 GMT -8
This is with a railmaster 16x35 variant
This with my own personal creation using 2 8x11 cell phone type speakers from digikey.
They were bonded length wise and made a wooden enclosure around them and then dropped them to 16ohms since 4ohms drop seems to be too much doing twins like this..
Just thought I'd share
|
|
|
Post by stevef45 on Dec 17, 2014 17:41:07 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Dec 17, 2014 18:21:17 GMT -8
That is roughly what I saw on the layout.
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Dec 18, 2014 6:34:17 GMT -8
Hooking a home stereo is great but where is the fun in that?
You can't see your train run or pull a train???
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Dec 18, 2014 11:00:01 GMT -8
Hooking a home stereo is great but where is the fun in that? You can't see your train run or pull a train??? The train still runs. The speakers are under the layout.
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 18, 2014 11:13:33 GMT -8
For a given loco, there are two matched decoders. One is in the loco, and operates normally. The other feeds the "stereo" and has a high filter that allows only low frequencies. The highs are directional, and come from the loco. The lows are less so, and come from under the layout.
The interesting question, to me, is how far away from the bass speakers can you get before you notice a disconnect between the two outputs. Obviously, if the loco is sitting right over the speaker, it'll sound great. 30 feet away, probably not.
A solution might be to have each loco set up with a radio emitter and setup phase detection for location identification. Then the appropriate under-layout speakers are fed.
Pretty sure that would work. 'Cause you're not gonna get a 16" speaker into an HO loco.
Ed
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Dec 18, 2014 11:17:30 GMT -8
I see that but when it's all hooked up that train does not run...
Until they get a decoder with actual Bluetooth capability to send sound to a sound bar from a signal then I might be interested
And I run more than one train so how will that work??
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 18, 2014 12:40:36 GMT -8
I see that but when it's all hooked up that train does not run... Until they get a decoder with actual Bluetooth capability to send sound to a sound bar from a signal then I might be interested And I run more than one train so how will that work?? I thought that too. But, no, you don't need to transmit the sound back from the loco. That's why you have two (sound) decoders. And the stationary one makes the same sounds as the one in the loco. 'Cause everything is set the same in the decoders. I guess one exception could be chuffs triggered by a cam on the loco. If you're running more than one loco, or train, ALL the stationary decoders feed the under-layout speaker. The sounds are additive. But the loco location ought to be transmitted back if you want more than one under-layout speaker. Ed
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 18, 2014 12:43:57 GMT -8
Another thought, though.
If ya make a sound decoder that also has that position transmitter I spoke of, it might be cheaper/better just to send the sound back out, either on the rails or in the air. Then you don't have to buy two sound decoders for every loco.
Ed
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Dec 18, 2014 12:47:18 GMT -8
Homebrewing this isn't that hard. Just consist an additional decoder to the train on the layout you want to enhance and feed its puny output to your bass/subwoofer amp. 1,000 watts or so should carry across a 30' basement I'm uncertain about the sound quality at such levels, though, with most current decoders. I think the Wow! is 32-bit? Tsunami is 16-bit? Newer Digitrax are 16-bit while I think their cheap line if still 8-bit? Maybe some oiin the know about such specs can provide guidance? Bass can have decidedly unhealthy sounds and damage speakers if overdriven through distortion. And if you want to run more than one such loco at a time? I suspect this is where the wish for super-realistic sound may break down. Comments were made, somewhat accurate, that narrowgauge layouts have fewer operators than the average standard gauge ones. Possibly. But if more than one, maybe two, folks are running heart-throbbing contraptions like that, it would run up against system limits. That where multiple woofers, each on its own channel, would work best as an effective solution. I suspect this factor is what has stymied commercial development so far.
|
|
|
Post by John Sheridan on Dec 18, 2014 13:00:40 GMT -8
I'm uncertain about the sound quality at such levels, though, with most current decoders. I think the Wow! is 32-bit? Tsunami is 16-bit? Newer Digitrax are 16-bit while I think their cheap line if still 8-bit? Maybe some oiin the know about such specs can provide guidance? Bass can have decidedly unhealthy sounds and damage speakers if overdriven through distortion.
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Dec 18, 2014 17:23:40 GMT -8
OK, Tsu and Lok are 32-bit. Wow! must also be 32-but because next would be 64-bit and I don't think anyone has made that leap yet. Factory sound levels tend to be set higher than halfway or maybe I'm just showing my age and old fartiness. No experience with Lok or Wow sound yet. But one feature of the Tsunami is the equalizer, which has CV options for flat, 6 different preset mixes, and one user customizable equalizer -- all across 7 bandwidths. Soundtraxx actually recommends turning down the mix at the lower end where it's mostly wasted effort for tiny speakers, in order to boost the sound of the upper part of the audio spectrum. But this also would make it easy to separate out the low end to feed under the table to large stationary speakers. Balance the sound between the two sources and you could have the start of something good. I think I heard where the Wow! also has sophisticated EQ onboard. Not sure about Loksound.
|
|