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Post by jlwii2000 on Dec 11, 2014 7:33:43 GMT -8
I just reviewed the Soundtraxx Tsunami Soundcar. Do you think this is a big leap towards the future of the hobby? Thoughts?
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 11, 2014 8:09:48 GMT -8
Not the future of the hobby for me.
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Post by jlwii2000 on Dec 11, 2014 8:21:21 GMT -8
Not the future of the hobby for me. Not a sound fan? Or just too much sound going on at once? |
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Post by lajrmdlr on Dec 11, 2014 8:26:10 GMT -8
How about putting that decoder & speaker "hidden" on top of the layout vs in a car. Shouldn't have any pickup problems that way. Just need to figure a way to connect it to your DCC system. And what can be done about multiple operators on the layout?
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Post by mlehman on Dec 11, 2014 8:33:10 GMT -8
I think something like SoundCar will become prevalent as sound in locos in the future. The cost now is a little steep -- ideally you'd want one in every 4th or 5th car -- but I suspect that will change.
It's also the case that Soundcar may do too much and limiting the more unusual options is one way to limit the price. For instance, most freight cars have no need for sounds and lighting associated with cab control passenger cars.
Then we could experience a train sounding like a train, instead of the loco being asked to do all the work.
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Post by NS4122 on Dec 11, 2014 8:34:58 GMT -8
Thanks for the great review, it was very thorough and informative. It is an interesting item that adds some neat sounds that complement the locomotive sounds to add more realism. Unfortunately, if the sour (first) response above is any indication, most on this forum seem to be rooted firmly in the past and will most likely pan it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 8:45:35 GMT -8
I think something like Sound Car will become prevalent as sound in locos in the future. The cost now is a little steep -- ideally you'd want one in every 4th or 5th car -- but I suspect that will change. It's also the case that Soundcar may do too much and limiting the more unusual options is one way to limit the price. For instance, most freight cars have no need for sounds and lighting associated with cab control passenger cars. Then we could experience a train sounding like a train, instead of the loco being asked to do all the work. That wouldn't sound much like a train, it would sound like small models trying too hard to sound like a train. Take it from someone who worked on real trains- sound does not scale down very well (lack of bass, which the real thing has in abundance), and a bunch of cars going at once will be like too many sound-equipped model locos at once- a tinny cacophony. A rare car or loco with sound is fine, IMO, but not en masse. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Dec 11, 2014 9:50:56 GMT -8
1). The repetitive nature of the sounds would drive me nuts. At high speeds, it sounds like a helicopter or a machine gun.
2). Are you hitting F8 four times on the locomotive's address or the car's "loco" address? Is the car address MU'd to the loco? Is it Advanced Consisted, Universal Consisted, Basic Consisted, or not consisted at all? Does the Soundcar decoder automatically sync itself to the first address on the track bus that has F8 hit four times sent to it?
3). Is the clickity-clack sound adjustable by rate for long cars and short cars?
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Post by valenciajim on Dec 11, 2014 11:26:10 GMT -8
I think we will see more of this in the future. Thanks for another great review!
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Post by Christian on Dec 11, 2014 12:40:00 GMT -8
I hope the clickity clack spacing can be adjusted. The video seemed to indicate rail joints every fifteen feet or so! I have welded rail on the main and jointed rail on secondaries. Does that mean on the fly reprogramming as my train leaves the main? I suppose if it's thought out to the tenth degree that leaves room to wiggle against products thought out to the nth degree.
Sounded ok for the basics. Some of the doo dad sounds seem to require too much programing or magnet waving on the fly. Squeal is one of those sounds that is high pitched and sounds fine on tiny speakers. The clickity clack also seems that it could be a winner if adjustable. And, over all volume needs to be cranked down for my ears. I can imagine a dozen of these cranked up in a long exhibition train would be a great crowd pleaser. For about five minutes!
I don't think it is a "great" leap forward. A plug and play sort of synchronized-to-the-consist sub-woofer would be that great leap. But this sound car sure seems usable right now. With my eyes closed I could hear a fast train going over a grade crossing.
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Post by tom on Dec 11, 2014 13:29:46 GMT -8
It seems like an intersting idea but I think cost has to be considered in our perception of things. I like to run mainline trains of about 30 cars each. How many would I need in that one train to be realistic? Every five cars? Every two cars? How loud would the car be set that you do not here the model sounds as opposed to the prototype sounds? Wouldn't it be odd that all of my flat cars are silent but the boxcars and covered hoppers have sound?
I'm still justifying the cost of sound in locomotives.....can't even think about cars too!
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Post by fr8kar on Dec 11, 2014 14:03:00 GMT -8
First of all, thanks for the review. The sounds are better than I expected and the consisting with a locomotive is pretty neat. However, like others have said the jointed rail speed seems to be off quite a bit. Hopefully that could be adjusted. The flat spot sound is terrible and not evenly repetitive like the prototype.
I think the ability to add this decoder to cab control cars on commuter trains is great. I had a set from Athearn that I'd still have if it tracked worth a darn and I might be convinced to put in this decoder.
Is it the future? I don't know. But it is certainly the beginning.
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Post by sd80macs on Dec 11, 2014 14:25:54 GMT -8
With these things added to freight cars, lighted passenger cars, sound locos, Etc you will need to start using 5amp boosters for every block on the layout pretty soon. lol
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 11, 2014 14:50:33 GMT -8
Not the future of the hobby for me. Not a sound fan? Or just too much sound going on at once? 3 things for me, 1: I'd rather spend the money on other things. 2: I turn my sound way down I don't really need this. Just too much confusion created for my hearing challenged ears. I do love sound but not at boom box volumes 3: There is not an infinite amount of power available on most decent sized layouts for excess drain. Listening to the sound on your video it sounds to me more like the trackside sound of a passing train rather than the sound of a train as it passes. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 11, 2014 15:27:22 GMT -8
Locomotives with sound, diesel gensets on refrigerated cars, now sound decoders for cars. After a while its all noise. Nothing stands out. You've dropped over $200 for a sound locomotive and now it has competition from its train. Does the model railroad industry think the average hobbyists pockets are as deep as Bill Gates? All this comes at price.
Second, there is the realism factor. This is where sound is still lacking in miniature. When a real train hits a diamond or the frog of a switch there is a crashing of wheels. Jointed rail versus welded sounds different. Plus the condition of the track. Jointed rail in not prime condition causes wheels to clack, brake rigging to clank, couplers to shift. There is so much sound.
The hobby demands cutting edge correct models, where a few thousandths of an inch can cause outrage(Bowser C-636), where what is available isn't good enough(SD40-2 models), complains about assembly(Athearn QC), complains about one manufacturer not using LED's(Athearn), yet we get these attempts at realism which in reality comes up a little short. What is next? Poop dropping on the track from passenger cars and cabooses? Mooing stock cars? Oh hold it, BLI already did that about decade ago....and the effect made people laugh.
I'd like to see the car sound fine tuned so it actually sounds like that car is really running over the layouts track. Not a bunch of canned sounds which are played on an endless loop.
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Post by jlwii2000 on Dec 11, 2014 16:19:17 GMT -8
Interesting take everyone. I love reading opinions because it helps me see someone else's viewpoint. I think this product is pretty cool, but now I can see a lot of reasons it could turn people away including cost too much noise, realism drain, etc. I still think I may equip several cars with these when I get prototypical length trains running sometime next year, but if it ends up being too much for my ears I may turn them down or off. For those who thanked me for the review, you're very welcome.  |
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Post by mlehman on Dec 11, 2014 23:34:51 GMT -8
I haven't had a chance to watch the review yet. Part of it is I've been so busy participating in the discussion it sparked about the "future of sound" over on the MR General Discussion board: linkI won't repeat myself, but do want to advise that some of the concerns people have about the jointed rail effect, etc are pretty much all addressed already. For a handy reference, the use manual and other documentation are here: linkKnowing how the Tsunami is set up, I expected things like user adjustable rates of clickety/clack for the jointed rail (including spacing, speed, # of axles on car), separate equalizers and volume controls for each effect, etc. You can control them manually via F keys, etc, automate them, and control "probability" i.e. how often the spound is called up. The advanced consisting feature will make it easy to use and add to the train. As for quality control, it's from Soundtraxx/Blackstone. Their customer service is great, they honor their warranty, and are pretty darn helpful in general with any issues you have. I fully expect these to be available in upcoming runs of RTR HOn3 rolling stock. A for the noise vs realism factor, that's well within the user's control once the manual is digested. As I mentioned in my comments over at the MR forum, this is not a decoder you will set at a high volume in most cases, because the sounds are mostly quieter than what you'd typically hear on the head-end. Nor is it essentially a continuous loop. Rather , it's user defined. You obviously could make it into an endless loop. Otherwise, the user can adjust these to suit. I suspect the power draw of these to be quite limited versus a motor control sound decoder. There is no motor to control, so neither is there the continuous draw of actual loco operation. Other sound is intermittent enough for the most part, it shouldn't burden the typical 5 amp and up home DCC system |
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Post by lvrr325 on Dec 12, 2014 0:26:57 GMT -8
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Post by Gary P on Dec 12, 2014 5:51:07 GMT -8
James - Just took some time to watch. Again, nice job on the video. The concept is interesting, and like some have mentioned, it may compete with other sounds on the layout. But, that's what happens in reality, doesn't it? I'm not sure if it's for me right now, or even in the immediate future, but I do kind of think its intereting. Who knows, I may come around....
Regardless, thanks fo rtaking the time and making the investment to share with the rest of us. It's better than reading or watching a manufacturers ad. Much appreciated.
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 12, 2014 14:23:43 GMT -8
I've given plenty of sound equipped locos a real chance on my layout, running some of them for months on end, daily or almost daily.
Honestly, the constant noise becomes somewhat maddening.
I have since learned that the peace and quiet of plain non-sound operation is for me. After spending 40 or more hours at my job each week, which can be stressful, the utter peace and quiet is wonderful. Even my sons quickly grew tired of the MTH and BLI big steam power with sound--and the MTH sound in particular was excellent.
For the record, I liked the BLI livestock cars with sound...those I could actually deal with, as the sounds were more...intermittent...than constant, and they made me laugh. However I never owned one.
Anything else more than an occasional independently controlled horn or whistle becomes too much.
(Lights I like. The more, the better).
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 12, 2014 15:34:31 GMT -8
I've given plenty of sound equipped locos a real chance on my layout, running some of them for months on end, daily or almost daily. Honestly, the constant noise becomes somewhat maddening. I have since learned that the peace and quiet of plain non-sound operation is for me. After spending 40 or more hours at my job each week, which can be stressful, the utter peace and quiet is wonderful. Even my sons quickly grew tired of the MTH and BLI big steam power with sound--and the MTH sound in particular was excellent. For the record, I liked the BLI livestock cars with sound...those I could actually deal with, as the sounds were more...intermittent...than constant, and they made me laugh. However I never owned one. Anything else more than an occasional independently controlled horn or whistle becomes too much. (Lights I like. The more, the better). I have to agree with RSD-5 completely. I had two Athearn Genesis DDA40X's with sound, mu'd together the double diesels in consist with with a couple of other sound Genesis sound models did get annoying. But then again, I had the massive 5'x9' layout which was about as interesting as watching bread mold. Hold it, watching bread mold is more interesting. Maybe if you have a larger layout the sound doesn't become a constant drone. But sound on a small layout with multiple sound locomotives becomes sensory overload, at least for me. Some folk want sound everywhere, bless 'em. Go for it and enjoy. For me though I like sound, but have and would in the future shut it off or turn it down to achieve a little peace and quiet. I too like lighting and lighting effects. Give me Mars, Gyralights, rotary beacons and strobes. I never get bored with lighting. Realistic lighting in passenger cars that bring interiors to life, along with rear end Mars lights and lighted drum heads really holds my attention. |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 12, 2014 18:48:37 GMT -8
Sound is neat for 10 minutes.
After that, it is noise.
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Post by grabbem88 on Dec 12, 2014 18:59:18 GMT -8
After 10 yrs this should have been soundtraxx time to put out upgraded tsunami sound files... not these clicity clack sound cars... But that's my opinion
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 12, 2014 19:29:59 GMT -8
Give me lights or give me death!  I enjoy all the gyralights, rooftop flashing beacons--and Bowser's individually controlled red/green/white classification lights on upcoming models sound way cool to me. One of my biggest complaints with Athearn Genesis is that it seems everybody else (even Bowser, who was somewhat of a holdout) now offers illuminated numberboards that have real numbers in them in their top of the line products (as opposed to plain clear plastic previously provided by some) except Athearn. Many choose to offer illuminated numberboards in their lesser priced products, too, though I'm not expecting it in Bachmann's any time soon. So with Genesis we pay for truly premium detailing, allegedly premium mechanisms and behind-the-times lighting. I would choose lights over sound any day. I don't hate on those people who do like sound, either--so please don't accuse me of that. |
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Post by mlehman on Dec 12, 2014 21:07:03 GMT -8
Had the chance to watch the review tonight and enjoyed it, James. In general, I found the sounds to be pretty good, certainly on par with the steam Tsunamis I'm familiar with. The one that was rather odd was the flatspot. I suspect some work with its equalizer will improve that, along with adjusting CV 116. The SoundCar also operates in analog mode on DC for all those still holding out for the end of DCC, since it's obviously such a flash in the pan.  People keep mentioning the tiny speakers, aghast at the fact sound in locos doesn't sound like their Bose 901s. Well, you won't get anything huge inside, but consider that the average boxcar has a LOT more space to work with in terms of speaker selection, size, potential for baffling, etc, etc. Sure, it's still not the sound system you have in your living room (or had back in the dorm), but it is a really enormous amount of volume inside the average freight car compared to locomotives. With some modification, you may have a really good platform for sound here. On the other hand, innovation doesn't seem to be the strong suit behind some of the comments. If Henry Ford had just given up on the Model T because it was a rough-riding, windy, and noisy ride, just think of where the auto industry might be today? This is not a criticism of James's review. He needed to have the sound up for demonstration purposes. I suspect that once the volume is tweaked to more closely reflect how you would hear the train in relation to the tracks, which most likely means turned down so it's considerably quieter along with adjustment of the associated equalizer, the quality of the sound is just fine. I also suspect that neither James or his installer spent much time trying to adjust the equalizer, etc. Remember this is an "out of the box" review which by it's nature can't really cover every variation of installation and use. This last point is also relevant to the larger discussion about sound quality and master volume settings.If you crank any sound system, you'll likely hear more distortion. Those who are insisting they're not "feeling the sound" in its inadequacy may also be turning up the volume, which leads to distortion and other aspects of poor and distorted sound. Think about it this way. I've often come across locos that have the sound turned all the way up, cranking at 255. How often do you crank up that stereo with the 4' tall speakers all the way up? And if you did, what results would you expect? Yeah, you would probably be disappointed in the results. Thus my reiteration of the importance of keeping over all volumes low, while questioning the assumption that sound quality is bad because that's what you heard the loco doing. If you had it cranking out noise at 255, that's not really a lot different than many home stereo systems. |
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Post by mlehman on Dec 12, 2014 21:15:16 GMT -8
After 10 yrs this should have been soundtraxx time to put out upgraded tsunami sound files... not these clicity clack sound cars... But that's my opinion Actually, that's a lot of people's opinion, given the considerable advances made with the TSC Wow sound decoder. Yes, the Tsunami is rather long in tooth. With competitive pressures bearing down, most in the narrowgauge community are expecting announcement of the next version of an improved Tsunami in the near future. I've even speculated that a next-generation Tsunami MIGHT be introduced with the release of the upcoming K-28 and K-36 locos by Blackstone. There's been sparse info available on them, which could account for this. But let's face it, this decoder does what it's intended to do. And the new Tsunami will be here in the near term, rather than the long term. You're kinda of mixing apples and oranges by arguing you wanted a new full-scale Tsunami instead. |
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Post by grabbem88 on Dec 12, 2014 21:33:32 GMT -8
No I'm basing this off of new product entry.
A company that makes sound decoders for engines brings this to the table??
Atleast loksound has "ALL" these features on there decoders and you can turn them off when you get tired of it.
Not a very competitive solution not too mention the extra work just to install it either..
Not everyone knows how to solder make there own truck wipers and why should I have to do all that or by more parts to install a gimmick that's about outdated as soundtraxx's first decoders..
Just so nobody gets my posting misconstrued I'm just not impressed and I am a sound guy
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Post by mlehman on Dec 12, 2014 22:05:29 GMT -8
SNIP Atleast loksound has "ALL" these features on there decoders and you can turn them off when you get tired of it. Not a very competitive solution not too mention the extra work just to install it either.. Not everyone knows how to solder make there own truck wipers and why should I have to do all that or by more parts to install a gimmick that's about outdated as soundtraxx's first decoders.. Just so nobody gets my posting misconstrued I'm just not impressed and I am a sound guy AFAIK, you can set the sounds to come on or not, manually or automatically. It's all there in the various docs. Wipers? That's nothing, very easy in most cases. You've reminded me I was going to post these pics of the wipers I use for car lighting, which would work just fine to install the Soundcar. The trucks are from Walthers troop sleepers, but this works with virtually any plastic truck. You need three things besides your soldering iron and tools: PCB tie material; .010 Tichy phosphor bronze wire; and super flexy hook up wire. You cut a small piece of PCB to act as the pad to hold the contacts and connect the wire lead.  The Tichy pickup wire needs to be cut a little longer than the wheelbase of the truck. Center the pickup on the PCB, then solder it and the wire lead to it. You can see one above the truck in this pic.  Most bolsters form a U shape facing downward. I drill a hole for the wire lead down through the bolster, the thread the lead, attached to the wiper and pull it up into the bottom of the bolster. I then epoxy that in place. You have to hold pressure on the wire lead while the glue sets up. This should pull the two wipers up so the constant the bottom of the axles. Make sure the wheel insulation is all on the same side.  In this case, I picked up both side off the same trucks, contacted the backs of the wheels, rather than wiping the axle, which will only work for one side where there is a metal axle.  |
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Post by mlehman on Dec 14, 2014 16:44:31 GMT -8
Some of those features could well come along in SoundCar 2.0. Soundtraxx is pretty responsive to consumer wants. Keep in mind Soundtraxx makes sound decoders, not vibration decoders. I know they are related, but consider what I've heard about how IMAX or one of those fancy movie places (or is this some of the Disney rides I'm thinking of?) provide for that with vibrating seats to supplement the audio bass. If you have a whole theater to hold speakers, amps, etc and you still need some sorta mechanical supplement to really pull off convincing low freq...aren't we setting the bar a little high for putting such stuff in tiny little models? One thing I also noted elsewhere is that sound in our models is just one factor among many on the layout and in our models that taken altogether provide the experience of realism we seek in operating. When you crank up the stereo, it's because you're listening to the music. When you operate on the layout, it's not the sound, per se, that you're after, it's the experience, which includes a number of other factors besides sound. And as another person commented elsewhere, our mind usually fills in the expected sound so long as what's there provides the proper context to do so. In the case of our models, we not only have the sound, but everything else on the layout that I just mentioned as conducive to operating and convincing you you're someplace out along the line. Then there's a saying from politics [no, not going there, just the source of the concept] that seems to be applicable to model sound when reading these discussions: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. |
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Post by Gary P on Dec 15, 2014 10:02:48 GMT -8
I'm not a sound guy, or even a DCC guy, but have a question... For the deep bass sound that is always missing in our models, would something like a fixed external speaker under the layout, say in the yard, or at a crossing or someplace similar, be a good idea?
I've heard some of the MRC DC transformers with sound through an external speaker, and the bass is real deep. I know it might be rudimentary sound compared to the specific sounds available in DCC equipped locos, but maybe as a supplementary sound to be used in addition to sound equipped locos/cars?
Just a thought...
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