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Post by WP 257 on Dec 20, 2014 17:32:57 GMT -8
Factually speaking, Toy Train Heaven stocked up years ago on the LifeLike Proto 2000 Northeastern Cabooses and to a lesser extent, the BL-2's. At one point they might have gotten a special blowout deal, idk. However, Lewis English Jr. guessed wrong on sales of that product. It had nothing to do with the product quality--they were great cabooses (and BL-2's) for the time (I'm actually about to buy one caboose off Ebay, as nothing in plastic has been done better for my particular railroad). Being a good product at a good price, I'm very sure he thought he was making absolutely the right decision at the time.
Lew Jr. guessed wrong in that they never sold very well. The stacks of cases stood around in inventory there for many years--a decade or longer. As someone who grew up in the area, and worked there for a brief time, I well know as we were always tripping over them in the warehouse...It tied up some money for a very long time that quickly became very dead money.
Even though folks who own train stores sometimes might have some money, many have to run a line of credit at the bank--and for a distributor it's a very large amount. You had to be able to cover large shipments of hundreds, even thousands, of new engines arriving at one time. Wholesale cost might have been $40 or $50 per Atlas-Kato engine back then, and of course you get discounts for paying right away, before you've collected money for any sales.
Well, it didn't take too many wrong guesses--debacles--for folks at TTH (and all the other distributors because they've all had similar experiences where they got burned for big money) to learn that essentially just in time delivery is far more cost effective. That's how we got to where we are today.
With today's minimum order requirements, etc. there are only a few big national distributors left (idk exactly how many--maybe 8 or 10).
Now some folks are going to say who cares, I want what I want when I want to buy it, etc. That's all fine, but we can't return to the past the way things used to be. I wish I could wave a magic wand and go back sometimes, too, but we have far more, far better stuff to spend our hard earned cash on today.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 20, 2014 19:12:08 GMT -8
Factually speaking, Toy Train Heaven stocked up years ago on the LifeLike Proto 2000 Northeastern Cabooses and to a lesser extent, the BL-2's. At one point they might have gotten a special blowout deal, idk. However, Lewis English Jr. guessed wrong on sales of that product. It had nothing to do with the product quality--they were great cabooses (and BL-2's) for the time (I'm actually about to buy one caboose off Ebay, as nothing in plastic has been done better for my particular railroad). Being a good product at a good price, I'm very sure he thought he was making absolutely the right decision at the time. Lew Jr. guessed wrong in that they never sold very well. The stacks of cases stood around in inventory there for many years--a decade or longer. As someone who grew up in the area, and worked there for a brief time, I well know as we were always tripping over them in the warehouse...It tied up some money for a very long time that quickly became very dead money. Even though folks who own train stores sometimes might have some money, many have to run a line of credit at the bank--and for a distributor it's a very large amount. You had to be able to cover large shipments of hundreds, even thousands, of new engines arriving at one time. Wholesale cost might have been $40 or $50 per Atlas-Kato engine back then, and of course you get discounts for paying right away, before you've collected money for any sales. Well, it didn't take too many wrong guesses--debacles--for folks at TTH (and all the other distributors because they've all had similar experiences where they got burned for big money) to learn that essentially just in time delivery is far more cost effective. That's how we got to where we are today. With today's minimum order requirements, etc. there are only a few big national distributors left (idk exactly how many--maybe 8 or 10). Now some folks are going to say who cares, I want what I want when I want to buy it, etc. That's all fine, but we can't return to the past the way things used to be. I wish I could wave a magic wand and go back sometimes, too, but we have far more, far better stuff to spend our hard earned cash on today. There is a huge difference between this rather extreme example of a store stocking up on cases and cases of BL-2s and a store ordering zero units for stock. Nobody that I know of is expecting stores to stock everything forever. But nothing? Isn't there some place in between the two extremes ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 19:57:44 GMT -8
I became hotly interested in model railroading after going to the NMRA national train show in Rosemont(Chicago area) Illinois in 1976. Plus, he discounted everything! That is cool. That was the first ever train show I went to. I vaguely remember it, but I do remember my brother getting a Bachman ABBA set of PC F units.You'd be surprised HOW MANY different models and paint schemes Athearn produced in 1976. To have stock three or more of each the store had thousands of dollars tied up. Today to stock at least three of every new model you are talking in the hundreds of thousands, with the volume of new product. Stores have to pick and choose wisely, for few hobby shops, other than some of the mega internet sellers have the financial capital to tie up very large amounts of money. Try Lombard Hobbies. From what I have seen in his store. He buy sin volume and sells at killer prices. Lots of product sitting on his shelves. Not because he cannot sell them. Because he buys a lot of them.
Brian
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 20, 2014 21:17:25 GMT -8
atsfan--
My LHS buys one or two of everything that is a local railroad in HO.
Today he had two brand new Athearn Reading (Pullman green) RS-3's, one CNJ RS-3, and two brand new Athearn bicentennial EL SD45's all of which "just came in".
If it's not a local railroad, or a common local run-through, or was pre-ordered for someone, you are most likely not going to find it here.
I think that is likely the case at many LHS's, but my sample is admittedly limited...
Today there are so many products that to have one or two of each engine in each roadname is a large amount of money--so only the very nearly-MBK-sized shops are going to be able to do that.
Santa Fe? Rio Grande? Southern Pacific? You are not going to find that stuff around here, period. (Ok, they have one O-scale MTH ATSF C30-7 in stock).
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Post by atsfan on Dec 21, 2014 7:09:36 GMT -8
atsfan-- My LHS buys one or two of everything that is a local railroad in HO. Today he had two brand new Athearn Reading (Pullman green) RS-3's, one CNJ RS-3, and two brand new Athearn bicentennial EL SD45's all of which "just came in". If it's not a local railroad, or a common local run-through, or was pre-ordered for someone, you are most likely not going to find it here. I think that is likely the case at many LHS's, but my sample is admittedly limited... Today there are so many products that to have one or two of each engine in each roadname is a large amount of money--so only the very nearly-MBK-sized shops are going to be able to do that. Santa Fe? Rio Grande? Southern Pacific? You are not going to find that stuff around here, period. (Ok, they have one O-scale MTH ATSF C30-7 in stock). That seems reasonable. I didn't know the Bicentennial units where out/
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Post by rapidotrains on Dec 21, 2014 10:25:36 GMT -8
atsfan-- My LHS buys one or two of everything that is a local railroad in HO. We have stores that go beyond that. They will only buy inventory of two railroads from one decade. They will order other models if their customers request them, but for locomotives if it's not CN or CP from the 1950s they won't carry it on the shelf. And the reason simply is that they know it will sit there. I can understand their perspective completely. The guys who pre-order know what they want and they know what they are reserving. They are willing to drop $325 on that super-detailed FP9A. And a lot of the "impulse" sales are to these same customers who are happy with their engines and want to buy more. But someone who is a casual modeller walking into the hobby shop - he's not likely going to want to spend $325 on a diesel locomotive he hadn't planned to purchase. If he's not a hardcore modeller, he probably can't tell an FP9A apart from his F7 and FP7 anyway. The larger stores and those with a large on-line presence have no problem moving inventory and they buy a lot of our models for the shelf. But in smaller markets, carrying too much high-end models from any manufacturer will put a small store in trouble with the bank. And then we have a handful of stores who never buy ANY inventory of Rapido products at all. They just order our models according to their preorder - we even occasionally see their order lists, and they have not even ordered a pair of freight car trucks for the shelf; it's all according to specific customer orders. As I don't visit these stores to do talks, I really wonder what their shelves must look like. How would someone know to buy Rapido there if they have nothing on the shelf? We haven't seen a large drop of sales in Canada, but we have seen a consolidation. The smaller stores who never order any inventory and are not with the times (online sales, clever marketing) are losing out to their competitors. -Jason
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Post by bar on Dec 21, 2014 11:40:46 GMT -8
Jason, what constitutes clever marketing? In-store visits by the mfr? Two for one? Gift with purchase? I thought the deepest discounts topped marketing in this hobby.
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 21, 2014 13:04:40 GMT -8
Jason, my son wanted some ACL coaches, and I ordered them anyway even though my former employer does not have much Rapido on the shelves (but they do have a few cabooses and gondolas, as those are hot even in Central PA--due to all the run through trains with Canadian power).
I do think some of the customers are more knowledgeable due to internet access, and will go and pre-order what they want whether shops have it on the shelves or not. In my case, the dealer puts all the Rapido announcements on the wall in the hallway, inside the door, with everybody else's announcements, too.
I was familiar with your cabooses and had no trouble pre-ordering passenger cars (though the clear-coated stainless finish could be shinier--it's a little flat for my taste).
The gons are hot, but I've been buying more of the Tangent ones so far (that I have to have for roads in PA), though I plan to add a Canadian one or two because we do see them here on occasion.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 21, 2014 16:57:57 GMT -8
And then we have a handful of stores who never buy ANY inventory of Rapido products at all. They just order our models according to their preorder - we even occasionally see their order lists, and they have not even ordered a pair of freight car trucks for the shelf; it's all according to specific customer orders. As I don't visit these stores to do talks, I really wonder what their shelves must look like. How would someone know to buy Rapido there if they have nothing on the shelf? We haven't seen a large drop of sales in Canada, but we have seen a consolidation. The smaller stores who never order any inventory and are not with the times (online sales, clever marketing) are losing out to their competitors. -Jason Amen. I travel all of the time. Some stores stock nothing, making actually going there of little value. Now, before someone blows this out of proportion, I am not saying order 1000 of everything and sit on it all. But, nothing? Several large stores I know don't even have a website, let alone online sales.
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 21, 2014 17:28:34 GMT -8
I'm always on the lookout for new items, manufacturers, etc. but maybe that's just atypical. Still, if people read MR News and other publications, they should know about Rapido whether the LHS does or not.
I partly helped in convincing a LHS to stock ExactRail, and in that case, I think I made a mistake--but the shop still made money on what they sold, and that area is now actually filled with MTH HO freight cars, which sell faster since they are typically less money.
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Post by Spikre on Dec 21, 2014 17:56:03 GMT -8
RSD-5, were those Proto Cabbies the Original Lited Versions ? or the good rolling 2nd Unlited version ? the 1st version can be made to roll good,but it takes plenty of fiddly work. did get a 1st version D&H at one mid 90s Timonium for $6.00,and looked thru the box for more,but didn't find any more D&H.they came rite from the Life Like Warehouse, so would guess they cost about $3.00 in Bulk,but No Choice of Roadnames, a "Grab Bag" sort of Dealers Deal. Spikre
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Post by chessie77 on Dec 21, 2014 18:28:39 GMT -8
I used to run a shop back in the early 2000s. I tried to stock local road names and anything Santa Fe and UP. The problem I had was no one wanted to pre-order anything, most of my customers were the have to see it in person first type. Also they would try to get me to match the lowest price that they had found, which sometimes was less than I had paid for an item. A number of my customers thought driving 75 miles to another shop to save $5 was a deal. Now a complaint that I had from customers and for my self to some extent is if its in your catalog it should be available. What's the point of having a Walther's catalog if most of the items a out of stock.
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Post by Spikre on Dec 22, 2014 13:06:27 GMT -8
Chessie77, the Walthers Catolog is considered a "Wish Book". one wishes what they need is available when it is needed. EG: about 1995 after failing to buy a C628 Test Shot Body from Steve Stewart asked when the C&O RS-3 PHS-3 would be available.He said "NEVER",it was never planned to do it,some one at Walthers put that in the Catolog and they wouldn't take it out.eventually Walthers did remove it,but it was a Stress object for Stewart Hobbies. other items from sort of dead concerns were kept in the Catologs because the owners told Walthers they were almost back in production,or something similar to that. Spikre
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Post by lvrr325 on Dec 23, 2014 21:02:30 GMT -8
The early Proto 2000 releases were basically what led to the short run cycle of today. They overproduced multiple pieces in the first few runs on the BL2, caboose, GP18 and E8. As a result they turned up for bargain prices at shows in the pre-eBay era, I remember buying four GP18s for $25 each in Seaboard colors and an IC E8 (which I later picked up some Rivarossi cars to go with) for $30, at a Greenberg or Great Train show I think (they sporadically did some shows here downtown in the 1990s). I had a Monon BL2, too, which became a dummy giving it's guts to an Athearn GP38-2 (that was where I found the trucks were mirrored, it went right together but then ran backwards to everything else DC). That vanished somewhere over the years.
Eventually they cut production back so they weren't dumping unsold inventory at bargain prices, and maybe cut back the ability for folks to come in and buy out the back door too. As a result of that I've been able to sell a few older run P2K pieces for stupid money on eBay over the years; Amtrak, Santa Fe E-units, sometimes certain roads on the cabooses, etc.
I was just looking on eBay now to price a couple of fully-assembled run P2K cabooses I've picked up and you can STILL find new, never run first run P2K cabooses in the box, somebody ran a lot of six of them and it brought $61 plus shipping. Decent roads for the most part, too.
As an aside, why they did so many of the short lines on them, I'll never understand. There can't be more than 10 guys in the country who needed a Belfast & Moosehead Lake caboose. Whereas with the Reading, LV and CNJ they could have done two or three schemes each and sold plenty; the LV scheme on the first-run was a poor choice, the original 1938 scheme that went with nothing unless you had the bucks for brass steam at the time.
But that was a large part of what changed the industry to today's short production run model. Even 15 years ago when I was involved in a LHS the stuff had about a three week period where it was hot. If you hadn't sold it by then, forget it, you'd sit on it either until you blew it out, someone came in who'd missed out, or if you waited things out you might get lucky and it would get hot again when the supply dried up and guys on eBay would fight over them. Even at that point, some roadnames would get blown out because while they made fewer, they still would make so many per road. I have an ACL SW9 for that reason (plus perhaps not many people wanted an engine numbered 666); dealer closeout price of $29.99 or so if I remember right.
Which, it makes sense, it has to be hard to sell your item at say 20% off list when it's brand new if guys know they can wait six months for it to be blown out for 80% off, they're just going to wait. Today, you really can't wait anymore, or if you do, the guy taking the loss on it is either a dealer who gambled or more likely a retail buyer who's now selling for whatever reason.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 24, 2014 6:53:47 GMT -8
The early Proto 2000 releases were basically what led to the short run cycle of today. They overproduced multiple pieces in the first few runs on the BL2, caboose, GP18 and E8. As a result they turned up for bargain prices at shows in the pre-eBay era, I remember buying four GP18s for $25 each in Seaboard colors and an IC E8 (which I later picked up some Rivarossi cars to go with) for $30, at a Greenberg or Great Train show I think (they sporadically did some shows here downtown in the 1990s). I had a Monon BL2, too, which became a dummy giving it's guts to an Athearn GP38-2 (that was where I found the trucks were mirrored, it went right together but then ran backwards to everything else DC). That vanished somewhere over the years. Eventually they cut production back so they weren't dumping unsold inventory at bargain prices, and maybe cut back the ability for folks to come in and buy out the back door too. As a result of that I've been able to sell a few older run P2K pieces for stupid money on eBay over the years; Amtrak, Santa Fe E-units, sometimes certain roads on the cabooses, etc. I was just looking on eBay now to price a couple of fully-assembled run P2K cabooses I've picked up and you can STILL find new, never run first run P2K cabooses in the box, somebody ran a lot of six of them and it brought $61 plus shipping. Decent roads for the most part, too. As an aside, why they did so many of the short lines on them, I'll never understand. There can't be more than 10 guys in the country who needed a Belfast & Moosehead Lake caboose. Whereas with the Reading, LV and CNJ they could have done two or three schemes each and sold plenty; the LV scheme on the first-run was a poor choice, the original 1938 scheme that went with nothing unless you had the bucks for brass steam at the time. But that was a large part of what changed the industry to today's short production run model. Even 15 years ago when I was involved in a LHS the stuff had about a three week period where it was hot. If you hadn't sold it by then, forget it, you'd sit on it either until you blew it out, someone came in who'd missed out, or if you waited things out you might get lucky and it would get hot again when the supply dried up and guys on eBay would fight over them. Even at that point, some roadnames would get blown out because while they made fewer, they still would make so many per road. I have an ACL SW9 for that reason (plus perhaps not many people wanted an engine numbered 666); dealer closeout price of $29.99 or so if I remember right. Which, it makes sense, it has to be hard to sell your item at say 20% off list when it's brand new if guys know they can wait six months for it to be blown out for 80% off, they're just going to wait. Today, you really can't wait anymore, or if you do, the guy taking the loss on it is either a dealer who gambled or more likely a retail buyer who's now selling for whatever reason. I agree on the niche road names. Atlas does that with engines. Apache railroad etc. As production quantities we need to reach a middle between the old Proto model and preorder only no extras.
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Post by bnsffan on Dec 24, 2014 8:43:32 GMT -8
I have no problem with the pre-order system. My LHS tells me what is coming, I tell him what I want, when it finally arrives I pay him and take it(or them) home. Just recently he realized I hadn't pre-ordered the ICE GP40s so he ordered them knowing that I would want them. I did and was very happy to pay him. I haven't looked at them yet as they are under the Christmas tree wrapped in pretty paper.
I also remember the not so good old days when I could walk into a (different) LHS and buy as many 40-ft or 50-ft boxcars as I could carry. They were all identical models with different fantasy paint schemes. I could even buy as many fat body Athearn diesels as I wanted. My goal was to buy a bunch of identical Athearn GPs with all of my favorite paint schemes. At the time I did not know that they were all fantasy schemes. However, the price was right, less than $10 for the GPs and less than $5 for the boxcars, but very few if any offerings were accurate models.
I also remember the Model Railroader poll that asked what modelers would be willing to pay for accurate models. Shortly there after the quality, accuracy, and price began to escalate.
I have read a lot of posts by self proclaimed experts complaining about prices and everything else for that matter. I sometimes wonder why they all don't get together, form a company, and do things correctly. I for one would be more than willing to pay $10 for a 100% accurate model.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, BNSF Fan
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Post by atsfan on Dec 24, 2014 9:13:35 GMT -8
I have no problem with the pre-order system. My LHS tells me what is coming, I tell him what I want, when it finally arrives I pay him and take it(or them) home. Just recently he realized I hadn't pre-ordered the ICE GP40s so he ordered them knowing that I would want them. I did and was very happy to pay him. I haven't looked at them yet as they are under the Christmas tree wrapped in pretty paper. I also remember the not so good old days when I could walk into a (different) LHS and buy as many 40-ft or 50-ft boxcars as I could carry. They were all identical models with different fantasy paint schemes. I could even buy as many fat body Athearn diesels as I wanted. My goal was to buy a bunch of identical Athearn GPs with all of my favorite paint schemes. At the time I did not know that they were all fantasy schemes. However, the price was right, less than $10 for the GPs and less than $5 for the boxcars, but very few if any offerings were accurate models. I also remember the Model Railroader poll that asked what modelers would be willing to pay for accurate models. Shortly there after the quality, accuracy, and price began to escalate. I have read a lot of posts by self proclaimed experts complaining about prices and everything else for that matter. I sometimes wonder why they all don't get together, form a company, and do things correctly. I for one would be more than willing to pay $10 for a 100% accurate model. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, BNSF Fan Which LHS do you use this way? I am always looking for a good store to use. Is if full MSRP or otherwise? As for forming a company, that is always the internet response. By that logic you never have any opinions or issues with anything? Cars, restaurants, cameras, hotels, airlines, commuters, appliances, repairs, nothing right? After all, if you do, why don't you just form a company and do things correctly right? I guess we should close down Yelp. And trip advisor. And Angie's list. Heck Model Railroad News should go out of business until they start making their own trains.
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Post by Spikre on Dec 24, 2014 15:32:43 GMT -8
glad Proto and Atlas ran those Shortline and Industrial units they made. so did Kato, the Cumberland Mine SD38-2 is a favorite here. but it seems some want to go back to the Santa Fe,PRR,B&O,GN, SP,U.P. F7 days of the 50s and 60s. glad Mantua/Tyco was based in NJ back then and broke that mold with C&O, Reading and NYC units, maybe a few others also. Spikre
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Post by Brakie on Dec 25, 2014 4:03:55 GMT -8
Those "niche" road names seems to sell better then more common road names.Maybe because of the eye candy paint schemes or the local once a day short line train is a favorite and a must have.
I would buy 2 CF&E GP38-2s in a heart beat..
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Post by Spikre on Dec 31, 2014 16:07:03 GMT -8
Larry, how can NYC,C&O,EL,Western Maryland,D&H,B&M,NKP, be considered "Nitch Roads" maybe L&NE,O&W,L&HR,CNJ,P&LE,P&WV,and others may be, but this is a subject that's hard to agree on. Spikre
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