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Post by Mark R. on Jan 27, 2015 15:02:31 GMT -8
My priorities are apparently different than most. For visual appeal, yes, the Genesis and Proto are much better, but I prefer the running qualities of an Atlas and I've yet to have an Atlas engine have the handrails wave back at me - even if they are a bit oversized. With a re-tooled chassis and additional details like grab irons, air hoses, etc., I'd be more than happy with them .... my engines get USED !
Mark.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 27, 2015 15:05:32 GMT -8
My priorities are apparently different than most. For visual appeal, yes, the Genesis and Proto are much better, but I prefer the running qualities of an Atlas and I've yet to have an Atlas engine have the handrails wave back at me - even if they are a bit oversized. With a re-tooled chassis and additional details like grab irons, air hoses, etc., I'd be more than happy with them .... my engines get USED ! Mark. You forget, they aren't the Atlas units of old and may not run like them: they will have the Mabuchi-clone motors that have been appearing in every other Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser unit as of late.
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Post by TBird1958 on Jan 27, 2015 15:28:29 GMT -8
My priorities are apparently different than most. For visual appeal, yes, the Genesis and Proto are much better, but I prefer the running qualities of an Atlas and I've yet to have an Atlas engine have the handrails wave back at me - even if they are a bit oversized. With a re-tooled chassis and additional details like grab irons, air hoses, etc., I'd be more than happy with them .... my engines get USED ! Mark.
Funny you bring up the handrails, I hadn't done a visual comparison between a China GP-7 and a Genesis until I shot those crappy cell phone pics this morning, the Atlas rail were at best as good as the Genesis ones - which was fine. Again, I like my Atlas units, but have found the Genesis are a bit nicer to me. BTW, visited your website, really nice work!
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Post by Spikre on Jan 27, 2015 15:35:17 GMT -8
if the Mabuchi dies it can be replaced by a Kato or Mashima motor. and Atlas should replace the Mabuchi so another one can be fried. why even comment on the Atlas GP7 if a Genesis GP7 is the Standard relied on ? can point out a number of faults with the current Genesis GP7/9s, but don't bother as it wouldn't change any ones minds anyway. Spikre
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Post by onequiknova on Jan 27, 2015 15:35:29 GMT -8
My Atlas Geeps are crude compared to Athearn's latest ones. The tooling is from...I dunno...1990? The P2K is similarly flawed and dated, with the giant radius at the top of the hood. Only a complete retool works for me on the Atlas and P2k units. Barring that, bring on more Genesis Geeps. Actually, the Proto is probably closer than the others on the market. If you look at the photos here: www.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics.html Specifically these 3: www.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics/P1000231.JPGwww.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics/P1000232.JPGwww.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics/P1000233.JPGYou'll find the hood roof radius is quite pronounced, and does start lower on the hood sides than most think (looks to start to curve around the 6" mark). Also, note how the roof radiator hatches curve down a bit with the sides, something not present on the Atlas unit (I'm not sure about the Athearn) Someone on another list even measured the Athearn unit and it came up short in terms of not having enough of a radius curve at the roof sides compared to the prototype. I have to agree. The radius on the Proto is slightly large to my eye, but the Genesis is too small. One thing Proto got right was the fan hatches curving over the radius slightly. I believe the Genesis is flat there. That right there tells me the Genesis has too tight of a radius. The older EMD's had a larger radius than the second gen EMD's.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 16:33:19 GMT -8
Got a couple of ATSF Proto GP9's I purchased a couple of weeks ago at a train show, used. I measured the hood top curve, and it is at 6". I've got some roof shots of some prototype GP's saved on my laptop that I looked at. It seems to me that the hood top curvature is about 4-5". Even from the ground it looks larger than 2nd generation EMD's. The fan hatches DO NOT go into the curve. The P2K hatches are probably the right size, but the curve is wrong. If the hood top curve was 4-5", the hatches would be flat, like they should be like on the prototype. I would agree that the newer (2nd generation) EMD's have a smaller hood top radius. Was looking at that, also.
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Post by onequiknova on Jan 27, 2015 16:37:20 GMT -8
Got a couple of ATSF Proto GP9's I purchased a couple of weeks ago at a train show, used. I measured the hood top curve, and it is at 6". I've got some roof shots of some prototype GP's saved on my laptop that I looked at. It seems to me that the hood top curvature is about 4-5". Even from the ground it looks larger than 2nd generation EMD's. The fan hatches DO NOT go into the curve. The P2K hatches are probably the right size, but the curve is wrong. If the hood top curve was 4-5", the hatches would be flat, like they should be like on the prototype. I would agree that the newer (2nd generation) EMD's have a smaller hood top radius. Was looking at that, also. The edge of the fan hatches on the prototype do curve down over the roof radius. Look at the plano links above. www.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics/P1000232.JPG
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 16:45:51 GMT -8
OK. I stand corrected. But there you have it, the rooftop radius is 5" and Proto did it at 6. I guess those roof top shots that I have don't get that close to show that hatch radius, even when I zoomed in.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 27, 2015 16:49:41 GMT -8
It seems to me that the hood top curvature is about 4-5" ... OK. I stand corrected. But there you have it, the rooftop radius is 5" and Proto did it at 6. I guess those roof top shots that I have don't get that close to show that hatch radius, even when I zoomed in. So, it seems to you, as in, you didn't actually measure them. Sigh. Did you even look at those shots I linked to? www.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics/P1000231.JPGwww.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics/P1000233.JPGLook where the curved radius starts to begin: around the 6 inch mark. If it started at 5 there wouldn't be a gap there. If Proto did it at 6, than it's probably close to accurate.
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Post by grahamline on Jan 27, 2015 17:56:39 GMT -8
Atlas MP15 enhancements appear to be in the area of the cab. As someone else pointed out, it's anyone's guess what sort of motor will be in there. Also it appears that later runs of the Atlas GP7 did have separately applied wire grabirons. Don't have any of these in my stash -- they're mostly Japanese-made Kato chassis with the molded grabs.
Regarding the Geeps, we all fall victim to looking at models too much, to the point that becomes our image of a freight car or locomotive. Studying the real thing, or a good set of photos of the real thing, can be quite an eye-opener in details and in the overall impression.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 18:19:32 GMT -8
It seems to me that the hood top curvature is about 4-5" ... OK. I stand corrected. But there you have it, the rooftop radius is 5" and Proto did it at 6. I guess those roof top shots that I have don't get that close to show that hatch radius, even when I zoomed in. So, it seems to you, as in, you didn't actually measure them. Sigh. Did you even look at those shots I linked to? www.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics/P1000231.JPGwww.planomodelproducts.com/GP9pics/P1000233.JPGLook where the curved radius starts to begin: around the 6 inch mark. If it started at 5 there wouldn't be a gap there. If Proto did it at 6, than it's probably close to accurate. OK. I'll accept my fault. Didn't look, cuz I prefer patties instead. But I'll still go stand in the corner anyways.
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Post by atsfan on Jan 27, 2015 18:27:28 GMT -8
I forgot about Proto. At one point they were on blow,out sales. Seems GP7s are almost as popular os F units.
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Post by onequiknova on Jan 27, 2015 20:11:16 GMT -8
For the hell of it, I measured an undec Proto GP9. Measuring the hood radius from the side of the hood to the beginning of the radius on the roof, I come up with .065", or a hair over 5 5/8 scale inches. measuring from the top of the roof down to the bottom of the radius, I come up with .072, or 6 3/16 scale inches.
Compare them to the Plano links and come to your own conclusion.
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Post by rockisland652 on Jan 27, 2015 20:12:58 GMT -8
I have to agree. The radius on the Proto is slightly large to my eye, but the Genesis is too small. One thing Proto got right was the fan hatches curving over the radius slightly. I believe the Genesis is flat there. That right there tells me the Genesis has too tight of a radius. The older EMD's had a larger radius than the second gen EMD's. It is imprudent to disagree with The Master ...I still think the Genesis...feels...better. <ducks> <runs(slowly)>
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Post by jbilbrey on Jan 27, 2015 20:48:35 GMT -8
Hasn't Athearn sort of carpet bombed the GP7 market over the past two years ? More like surgical strikes IMO. With the exception of IC and SAL/SCL, the southern railroads have been largely untapped. One could easily have five schemes for L&N alone (as delivered, black, early grey and yellow, later grey and yellow, and Family Lines). Other variations include fuel tank sizes, placement of air-tanks, presence of steam-generators, location of class lights, and even handrails. There have been no ACL, Central of Georgia, FEC, N&W, or Southern GP7's or GP9's as well.
James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN
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Post by The Ferro Kid on Jan 28, 2015 1:18:24 GMT -8
Hasn't Athearn sort of carpet bombed the GP7 market over the past two years ? More like surgical strikes IMO. With the exception of IC and SAL/SCL, the southern railroads have been largely untapped. One could easily have five schemes for L&N alone (as delivered, black, early grey and yellow, later grey and yellow, and Family Lines). Other variations include fuel tank sizes, placement of air-tanks, presence of steam-generators, location of class lights, and even handrails. There have been no ACL, Central of Georgia, FEC, N&W, or Southern GP7's or GP9's as well.
James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN
And in the Northeast, haven't touched New Haven or Lehigh Valley schemes. And only one Boston and Maine scheme, if I'm recalling correctly. Atlas will be doing Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo (Proto 2000 did a run of those many moons ago).
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Post by riogrande on Jan 28, 2015 6:14:29 GMT -8
Athearn is probably doing what companies do, focus on selling what they feel will be the best sellers first and work there way down the list from the top down. So the paint schemes still not run may be perceived as lower sales candidates. Just guessing.
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Post by markfj on Jan 28, 2015 7:28:20 GMT -8
My priorities are apparently different than most. For visual appeal, yes, the Genesis and Proto are much better, but I prefer the running qualities of an Atlas and I've yet to have an Atlas engine have the handrails wave back at me - even if they are a bit oversized. With a re-tooled chassis and additional details like grab irons, air hoses, etc., I'd be more than happy with them .... my engines get USED ! Mark. You forget, they aren't the Atlas units of old and may not run like them: they will have the Mabuchi-clone motors that have been appearing in every other Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser unit as of late. Yes, I know I forgot that Atlas changed motors. Those older Atlas motors were smooth and gave very good performance even on slightly dirt track. I won’t create thread drift or try to throw the Mabuchi-clones under the bus because I haven’t had any experiences with them yet. But I will say those motors are one more area of concern that could keep me from buying this "new" Atlas geep.
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Post by grabbem88 on Jan 28, 2015 15:07:57 GMT -8
I think on a shorter wheel base the atlas new motor performs well enough that won't be an issue? Out of sight ou of mind right lol ...something like that...
I just hope there is room to replace motor with different motor cause the rs3 I got seems to be sparse for room..
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Post by roadkill on Jan 28, 2015 17:18:32 GMT -8
I'm on the fence about the "new" Atlas GP7. On one hand the all metal frame makes for great tractive effort, but on the other it makes it a major PITA to detail. Shell-wise its no less flawed than the Genesis or the P2k. My two major beefs with the Gennie's shell are the too-sharp hood radius and completely fudged-up cab sides and cab roof, and it's extremely light weight is a minus too. Love the gorgeous frames tho.
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Post by buffalobill on Jan 28, 2015 21:20:26 GMT -8
Unfortunately this is just a tuned up version of twenty five plus year old product. Both the Proto and Genesis units have minor issues, but are vastly superior to this thing. Which is unfortunately dated, new frame will be nice, but there is still the shell. I hope at some point Atlas will actually be able to bring out new product, rather than warmed over ancient tooling. The Kato built GP-7 was great in its day, but that was a quarter century ago. Bill
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 29, 2015 0:59:33 GMT -8
I'm on the fence about the "new" Atlas GP7. On one hand the all metal frame makes for great tractive effort, but on the other it makes it a major PITA to detail. Shell-wise its no less flawed than the Genesis or the P2k. My two major beefs with the Gennie's shell are the too-sharp hood radius and completely fudged-up cab sides and cab roof, and it's extremely light weight is a minus too. Love the gorgeous frames tho. Unless you have a milling machine and some mad skillz, you can't do much if anything with the cast metal frame in terms of kitbashing something with no skirts, skirt cutouts, or different/modified fuel tanks (take it from someone who has tried). In this regard, the Proto and Genesis offerings with plastic body frames and removable fuel tanks are much easier to work with.
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Post by Brakie on Jan 29, 2015 3:23:56 GMT -8
Unfortunately this is just a tuned up version of twenty five plus year old product. Both the Proto and Genesis units have minor issues, but are vastly superior to this thing. Which is unfortunately dated, new frame will be nice, but there is still the shell. I hope at some point Atlas will actually be able to bring out new product, rather than warmed over ancient tooling. The Kato built GP-7 was great in its day, but that was a quarter century ago. Bill Strangely enough that old Atlas/Kato Geep is still one of the smoothest runners on the market and the updated Geep will be welcome by many including myself. It may not be all fancy dancy with fragile details like other brands but,still well worth taking to the royal ball.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 29, 2015 4:35:39 GMT -8
Strangely enough that old Atlas/Kato Geep is still one of the smoothest runners on the market ... Strangely my yellow box Atlas GP7's made a bit of a grindy noise when I ran them - for some reason they didn't have the silky smooth of other KATO drives. I had a Stewart F unit with KATO drive that was like that once, and Stewart replaced it for me. The Atlas GP7's were sold about 8 years ago as all around I just wasn't happy with them. It was a combination of the specifics of those two units too including paint issues and less than stellar drives, that and the crude metal frame/chassis.
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Post by jaygee on Jan 29, 2015 5:24:02 GMT -8
All of this seems to underline one thing...try finding an Oriental LTD. Geep on the used market! Even with the bad gears !
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Post by Brakie on Jan 29, 2015 5:41:40 GMT -8
Strangely enough that old Atlas/Kato Geep is still one of the smoothest runners on the market ... Strangely my yellow box Atlas GP7's made a bit of a grindy noise when I ran them - for some reason they didn't have the silky smooth of other KATO drives. I had a Stewart F unit with KATO drive that was like that once, and Stewart replaced it for me. The Atlas GP7's were sold about 8 years ago as all around I just wasn't happy with them. It was a combination of the specifics of those two units too including paint issues and less than stellar drives, that and the crude metal frame/chassis. I love my Atlas Geeps as much as I do my better detailed P2K Geeps of course, slow smooth operation means more to me then correct down to the minute details since I'm more into switching operation--as you know. And that's why I look forward to the Atlas GP7 release. I still haven't made up my mind on that Genesis DCC/Sound equipped SCL GP9 yet.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 29, 2015 6:20:41 GMT -8
I think I just got unlucky - I know they had KATO drives but while much better than Athearn QA, you do run across the occasional one - and they weren't bad, just not whisper quiet and silky smooth like my GP35's and SD45's were.
I did look long and hard at the re-issued Atlas classics (red box) GP7 when they did my fav road name, but seemed the money always ended up going somewhere else. I think part of what made me hesitate was that the price was fairly high on the re-issued Atlas GP7, but I didn't perceive the cost/benefit to be there for the higher price.
OTOH, the Genesis GP9 wasn't that much more than the Atlas classic, but it seemed to offer more in terms of detail and accuracy for a 1970's D&RGW geep, so it seemed worth it to me to pony up. It didn't help that nearly all of the GP7's were off the Rio Grande roster by 1972 - while the GP9's were used well into the mid-1980's. I had always wanted a D&RGW GP9 much more than the GP7 because of this, but no one had offered an HO D&RGW GP9 in 70's paint other than the old Front Range model.
When the Genesis geep's came along - the long wait was over so I sprung for two. But since I'm on a budget just got the silent version - the D&RGW folks informed me none of the horns on the sound unit matched the horn used by D&RGW either so that made it all the easier to choose silent. I did finally get a sound Genesis diesel last December with the GP40-2's when they hit the shelves and promptly flew off!
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Post by cf7 on Jan 29, 2015 6:56:30 GMT -8
More like surgical strikes IMO. With the exception of IC and SAL/SCL, the southern railroads have been largely untapped. There have been no ACL, Central of Georgia,GP7's or GP9's as well.
James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN
Atlas did do a CofG GP7. Here is one that I did 6 or 7 years ago... I did a lot of filing on the pilots and the hood ends to install separate parts. I also redid all but but the stripes on the hood sides. The rest is paint that I mixed and MicroScale decals. Not that the factory paint was bad, but with the body work that I did, I just ended up repainting the whole thing.
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Post by buffalobill on Jan 29, 2015 11:40:51 GMT -8
Larry, I am in agreement that the Kato drive Atlas GP-7's were indeed smooth runners. I have three from the early 90's, and one of the made in China units, about 6 year old. Problem is the made in China units are no where near as smooth from an operation perspective as the Japanese units. Plus now in addition you have the clone motor issue. Even though they improved the frame, I am not sure it provides much of a platform to build from. If I need another GP-7, I know where my money's going.
By the way Chuck nice job on the Central of Georgia unit. Bill
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Post by Brakie on Jan 29, 2015 13:50:03 GMT -8
Bill,I would like one more SCL GP9 to round it out to three..I have both P2K SCL GP9s 1025 and 1027.I would like a Atlas SCL Geep and there's that Genesis SCL Geep I'm thinking about buying..
Wait on a Atlas SCL Geep or roll the QA/QC dice and buy the Genesis?
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