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Post by curtmc on Aug 7, 2015 21:25:27 GMT -8
These Walthers Gunderson 53' All-purpose well car models do not have the fifth wheel (trailer hitch) that makes them an all-purpose car, even though 6 of the 8 cars done (all 4 FEC and both SMW) should still have the fifth wheel on them like the prototypes FEC and SMW cars do.
The cars were originally advertised at $24.98 MSRP and then delivered at $39.98 missing parts they should have had to meet the "Exquisite Prototype-Specific Detailing" that the boxes advertise on both sides, front and back of the boxes.
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Post by HurricaneFec on Aug 8, 2015 19:25:45 GMT -8
These Walthers Gunderson 53' All-purpose well car models do not have the fifth wheel (trailer hitch) that makes them an all-purpose car, even though 6 of the 8 cars done (all 4 FEC and both SMW) should still have the fifth wheel on them like the prototypes FEC and SMW cars do. The cars were originally advertised at $24.98 MSRP and then delivered at $39.98 missing parts they should have had to meet the "Exquisite Prototype-Specific Detailing" that the boxes advertise on both sides, front and back of the boxes. At basically $40 per well car makes them the most expensive intermodal car on the market, the least they could do is add the fifth wheel like they did for the 48' well version. Here are some photos the actually Florida east coast Gunderson rebuilt 53' well with the fifth wheel installed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 8, 2015 19:50:10 GMT -8
Yup. It's a wonder.
Walthers marketing method seems to be to price things as high as they think MIGHT sell. Then, if and when it doesn't, deep discounts. So, either these cars will fly out the door at $40 each, or they'll be stunningly discounted if no one buys them. It's sorta like reverse e-bay bidding.
The missing hitch is another wonder.
Who can figure out the reasoning of giant global corporations?
Ed
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Post by catcliffedemon on Aug 8, 2015 20:59:27 GMT -8
At basically $40 per well car makes them the most expensive intermodal car on the market, the least they could do is add the fifth wheel like they did for the 48' well version. Here are some photos the actually Florida east coast Gunderson rebuilt 53' well with the fifth wheel installed
Just for the record, the FEC cars are NOT converted from 48 footers. These were built as 53ft all-purpose wells.
The DTTX cars lost their fifth wheels on being stretched, the SMW retained them.
All the best,
Gareth
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Post by Dear Leader on Aug 8, 2015 21:11:39 GMT -8
Adding fifth wheels to the cars are a minor thing. Yes, they should be on them. We are modelers, and this is "Model Railroading", and you don't have to rebuild the entire car, just add two fifth wheels per car. With all the short comings of more expensive models guys, this minor. As far as Walther's marketing method, it works for them. If they cost too much, don't buy them. Speak with your wallet, but the cars have sold out in most places, and they will be more expensive on the next run, I'm sure. I bought all I need, so any future prices increase won't effect me.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 8, 2015 21:16:43 GMT -8
...the cars have sold out in most places... At Walthers, only the TTX cars are sold out. Which means that "most places" can refill their stock. Ed
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Post by Dear Leader on Aug 8, 2015 22:05:30 GMT -8
...the cars have sold out in most places... At Walthers, only the TTX cars are sold out. Which means that "most places" can refill their stock. Ed And? ?
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Post by curtmc on Aug 9, 2015 5:35:43 GMT -8
People ARE speaking with their wallets... If Walthers had equipped the FEC and SMW cars with the fifth wheel - making the models an all-purpose car like their prototypes - then they would probably be sold out of the FEC and SMW cars too. The only ones that sold out quickly were TTX cars and that's probably more related to them having the new TTX red logos than them being the only ones that are accurate.
Walthers still has stock of the FEC and SMW cars and at this point may have more difficulty selling them to shops who probably still have the FEC and SMW cars from the initial shipments and/or have had some preorders returned on the basis of the omission. By now, many of the dealers have probably been informed that the FEC and SMW cars are not correct without the trailer hitches. If they sold out of the initial shipment, they may be hesitant to order more.
As I told one of the product development staff at Walthers... They should not be marketing/advertising a well car as "all-purpose" without having the fifth wheels on the RTR car or at the very least as parts in the box to be added by the buyer. In this case they very easily could have had a model where all 8 roads/numbers being offered were correct (or very close) but instead elected to only make 2 correct.
But that's just Walthers... and why I seldom buy any of their products anymore, and at this point would never preorder one.
PS. Yes the cars can be corrected after a long process of finding the proper hitch parts (which Walthers has done on prior cars and already has the production tooling for, so the omission could not have saved them much). I will be doing it to ONE FEC car. I will not be buying 8+ of the cars and spending several hours correcting them. Walthers apparently doesn't realize (yet) that errors/omissions such as this (1) cost them many sales to those modelers who had an initial intent to order MANY of the cars (modelers who want to spend their time operating trains and not fixing manufacturer errors) and (2) cost them future advance orders because prospective customers cannot count on the accuracy of what they will get or even if the advertising is accurate on what the models will include.
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Post by catcliffedemon on Aug 9, 2015 6:09:36 GMT -8
I'm not sure the FEC and SMW cars sitting around on dealer shelves is down to the omission of the fifth wheel. I think it's because of a lack of information amongst potential purchasers. Everyone knows about TTX, but are people aware that the FEC wells are almost ubiquitous in double stack trains since the mid 2000s? I'm not so sure.
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Post by curtmc on Aug 9, 2015 7:28:57 GMT -8
Everybody who actually watches intermodal trains on the east coast is aware that FEC has the cars - and most probably know FEC has had them many years. The FEC cars date back about 10 years and many were photographing them when they were new (I can recall seeing strings of 5-10 of them in many CSX trains, and fellow railfans not only taking digital photos but also taking SLIDE PHOTOS of them). The more recent SMW cars may not be as familiar to most, but I'd bet that isn't the case with the FEC cars.
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Post by Dear Leader on Aug 9, 2015 7:43:07 GMT -8
People ARE speaking with their wallets... If Walthers had equipped the FEC and SMW cars with the fifth wheel - making the models an all-purpose car like their prototypes - then they would probably be sold out of the FEC and SMW cars too. The only ones that sold out quickly were TTX cars and that's probably more related to them having the new TTX red logos than them being the only ones that are accurate. Walthers still has stock of the FEC and SMW cars and at this point may have more difficulty selling them to shops who probably still have the FEC and SMW cars from the initial shipments and/or have had some preorders returned on the basis of the omission. By now, many of the dealers have probably been informed that the FEC and SMW cars are not correct without the trailer hitches. If they sold out of the initial shipment, they may be hesitant to order more. As I told one of the product development staff at Walthers... They should not be marketing/advertising a well car as "all-purpose" without having the fifth wheels on the RTR car or at the very least as parts in the box to be added by the buyer. In this case they very easily could have had a model where all 8 roads/numbers being offered were correct (or very close) but instead elected to only make 2 correct. But that's just Walthers... and why I seldom buy any of their products anymore, and at this point would never preorder one. PS. Yes the cars can be corrected after a long process of finding the proper hitch parts (which Walthers has done on prior cars and already has the production tooling for, so the omission could not have saved them much). I will be doing it to ONE FEC car. I will not be buying 8+ of the cars and spending several hours correcting them. Walthers apparently doesn't realize (yet) that errors/omissions such as this (1) cost them many sales to those modelers who had an initial intent to order MANY of the cars (modelers who want to spend their time operating trains and not fixing manufacturer errors) and (2) cost them future advance orders because prospective customers cannot count on the accuracy of what they will get or even if the advertising is accurate on what the models will include. Really, Long process to find the proper hitch parts, several hours to glue two parts to a car?? Read my post above, it will help you. As for this omission, I doubt anyone noticed it until the subject was brought up in the groups. Now some people are using it as a podium to bash Walthers, and pontificate that sales will be eroded, etc. I doubt this will hurt advance orders because Walthers accuracy has always been in question, so this is nothing different. As for correctly modeling the car, I doubt anyone at Walthers knew that only the TTX car didn't have fifth wheels. It's a business. In closing it's just a fifth wheel!!!!
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 9, 2015 7:46:17 GMT -8
I bought a couple of the yellow FEC cars because I photographed a pair in a train on the north bank of the Columbia in 2010.
Ed
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Post by curtmc on Aug 9, 2015 8:31:54 GMT -8
The hours isn't in the actual "gluing", although for 8+ cars that could take a little time to make sure the parts are aligned properly... The several hours is in locating and acquiring the parts (not to mention the additional expenses of that).
Your task (should you choose to do it) is starting at 8 AM on a Sunday morning (without any prep or looking for parts in advance) start the job and assemble all the parts you need (including those that you don't already have), glue them on the cars, and then come back and tell us how many hours that takes... I'm betting you will not be done until several hours later (if you miraculously have everything) to a few weeks if you have to order something... Okay, compare that to the time if the parts were right there in the box or on the car as they should have been.
By the way, the person I received reply from at Walthers was aware that the FEC cars should have the hitches... I cannot say whether he had been told that after the car development but when the initial advertising of the cars (the first announcement later canceled) used a photo of a FEC car you would think somebody would have noticed that they had the hitches.
PS. And frankly when Walthers is trying to sell off 2-packs of FEC trailers, don't you think somebody there might have thought of the sales potential of putting those trailer hitches on the FEC well cars and maybe selling a few FEC trailers to go with them?
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Post by Dear Leader on Aug 9, 2015 13:18:39 GMT -8
The hours isn't in the actual "gluing", although for 8+ cars that could take a little time to make sure the parts are aligned properly... The several hours is in locating and acquiring the parts (not to mention the additional expenses of that). Your task (should you choose to do it) is starting at 8 AM on a Sunday morning (without any prep or looking for parts in advance) start the job and assemble all the parts you need (including those that you don't already have), glue them on the cars, and then come back and tell us how many hours that takes... I'm betting you will not be done until several hours later (if you miraculously have everything) to a few weeks if you have to order something... Okay, compare that to the time if the parts were right there in the box or on the car as they should have been. By the way, the person I received reply from at Walthers was aware that the FEC cars should have the hitches... I cannot say whether he had been told that after the car development but when the initial advertising of the cars (the first announcement later canceled) used a photo of a FEC car you would think somebody would have noticed that they had the hitches. PS. And frankly when Walthers is trying to sell off 2-packs of FEC trailers, don't you think somebody there might have thought of the sales potential of putting those trailer hitches on the FEC well cars and maybe selling a few FEC trailers to go with them? Well. I did all my cars in less than 40 minutes, that's including looking in my parts box for the fifth wheels. As I said in my post above, you read that of course, curtmc, that you can use fifth wheels from the Athearn or Walthers spine cars. Of course I'm thinking that if you model intermodal, than will have those. If not, get on a list and ask if anyone has spares they can send you. If that doesn't work, you can order hitches for spine cars from Bowser, and use the other parts to repair the hitches that may get broken. Combined, won't take hours, just a few minutes, and then waiting for the parts. I doubt you'll put your life on hold and sit at the mail box waiting for the mail to come. If you want perfection, properly detailed and complete models, your in the wrong hobby. Your dealing with humans, humans make errors. Humans also can correct the errors others make.
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Post by stottman on Aug 10, 2015 9:12:10 GMT -8
I am of the opinion that you are detail orientated enough to know if Car 123 had them vs Car 124 not having them, then you need to be a good enough modeler that adding such parts is a fun, easy project.
Its like people complaining that the latest run of something didn't have the obscure road name they wanted, when the undec models are the last to sell out, and decals are all over.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 10, 2015 10:39:03 GMT -8
If only. Well, maybe, if you include inaccurate ones. Try finding accurate SP&S passenger decals. Ed
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Post by curtmc on Aug 10, 2015 10:54:20 GMT -8
I've been in this hobby for 40+ years now and seen a lot of progress made because of those who pointed out errors and omissions. I've seen a lot of strides made in accuracy and detail (peaking about 2000-2007), and now I think we are seeing a slide from that...
Yes, there are those who would pay $100 for a box of wood and whittling instructions on how to shape it to a model... There are those who would settle for parts and instructions... Those are now (and have long been) the minority and the manufacturers know that. RTR is king. Wrong gets pointed out.
Most people in the hobby now want something correct when they take it out if the box, and with so many in the hobby being older, or having partial disabilities I am not going to say that is a bad thing (as some might do in their ego boasting that such people are not model railroaders if they are not willing to correct manufacturer mistakes). These are not the $5 Bev-Bel cars of the past that most knew were "stand-ins". These are $35+ models that should be more correct. Many/most feel at that price level the consumer should not have to correct mistakes. None. Period. If so, no sale.
A fellow model railroader once put it this way... Sometimes you wonder if it is the blind selling to the dumb or vice versa.
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Post by peoriaman on Aug 10, 2015 11:08:15 GMT -8
... and decals are all over. Like back in the old days? Been to Microscale's website lately? There's a lot out of stock and I ain't seen none of it come back yet.
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Post by curtmc on Aug 10, 2015 12:11:04 GMT -8
The point for this thread is that we are not talking about obscure roadnames, decals or cheap stand in cars...
We are talking about a nearly $40 MSRP car that the manufacturer didn't include the appropriate details or the parts on - even thought they have already made those parts before...
I recall when Walthers 48' all-purpose well cars came out. They had die cast sides, fifth wheels, excellent/accurate printing and (except for metal wheelsets) all of the details of the newer offering. And they retailed RTR for $14.98. Looking at my database I bought them for less than $10 each. Back then if Walthers had left off the fifth wheels they would have been a laughing stock. These days I guess some modelers are so desperate they'd accept it...
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Post by stottman on Aug 10, 2015 12:21:45 GMT -8
$40 MSRP ain't what it used to be.
Price on almost everything (not just trains) has more doubled in the last 20 years.
So, you can dream of your $15 Walthers cars and 5 cent candy bars, but those days are gone.
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Post by Dear Leader on Aug 10, 2015 13:31:57 GMT -8
The point for this thread is that we are not talking about obscure roadnames, decals or cheap stand in cars... We are talking about a nearly $40 MSRP car that the manufacturer didn't include the appropriate details or the parts on - even thought they have already made those parts before... I recall when Walthers 48' all-purpose well cars came out. They had die cast sides, fifth wheels, excellent/accurate printing and (except for metal wheelsets) all of the details of the newer offering. And they retailed RTR for $14.98. Looking at my database I bought them for less than $10 each. Back then if Walthers had left off the fifth wheels they would have been a laughing stock. These days I guess some modelers are so desperate they'd accept it... Not a question of accepting, just realizing that this is the way it is. Looking back on all the cars and locomotives that have come out, all have had issues with them, burned out bulbs, wavy handrails. missing parts, thick. sloppy, incorrect paint, missing car numbers, etc. Some are easy fixes, others not so much. If you want a perfect model out of the box, your gong to be disappointed. I have learned to accept it. It's that or just leave the hobby. I'm not desperate for any car, but I know what's a minor fix, and what's a major fix. Missing fifth wheels are a minor thing. At least Walther's cast the mounts for them. You can't drive a car looking in the rear view mirror at where you have been. Look forward at what's ahead. Live in the present, not the past, and don't worry about the future, it may never come.
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Post by curtmc on Aug 10, 2015 17:09:08 GMT -8
5 cent candy bars is going back 60+ years...
$15 Walthers cars is going back 10-17 years tops and soon to be a reality again for those who bid on my upcoming auctions of such cars this Winter... (I have roughly 950 Walthers cars and I'm probably going to be selling off 600+ of them)
PS. There have been several manufacturers who have made models without any of the issues spoken of, perhaps not as many in the last few years, but there have been many along the way... Athearn, Tangent, even E-Rail, IM and older Walthers
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Post by stottman on Aug 10, 2015 22:56:28 GMT -8
5 cent candy bars is going back 60+ years... $15 Walthers cars is going back 10-17 years tops and soon to be a reality again for those who bid on my upcoming auctions of such cars this Winter... (I have roughly 950 Walthers cars and I'm probably going to be selling off 600+ of them) PS. There have been several manufacturers who have made models without any of the issues spoken of, perhaps not as many in the last few years, but there have been many along the way... Athearn, Tangent, even E-Rail, IM and older Walthers Walthers has always been the 75% model maker. Be it dimensionally, or when they do get that right, placing "foobie" roadnames, etc... Detail wise, the models are always behind the power curve/trend in regards to details. So comparing it to Tangent, Exactrail, and the others is a bit of a stretch. Sure, Walthers has had some good ones, but its generally a miss rather then a hit.
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